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Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

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1 minute ago, LadyBlackwater said:

I wasn't trying to compare the two really. I'm saying that in the show, it seems like they needed to rush her madness. Also I wouldn't call it false and dishonest, just the opinion in a sea of other opinions on a forum made for opinions.

But it's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact.

Aerys II was a sick and twisted man...absolutely foul. There's no comparison between him and Daenerys. If you want to liken Dany to a bad Targaryen king, liken her to Maegor

No Magna Carta, no Petition to the King, no Haandfæstning, no Napoleonic Code, nothing. Several kings and ruling queens who are unwell and otherwise unfit throughout history have been confined to their quarters and their kingdoms ruled by regents.

The fact that Tywin or Rhaegar never did anything about it tells us all we need to know, doesn't it.

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I think Varys is evil in human form... I wouldn't put it past him to have been the reason the mad king went crazy and turned Dany also...

He probably fed both of them poison that slowly turned them both crazy... and also attempted it with Bobby but he got himself killed before he completely lost it... he was showing signs though of paranoia.

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11 minutes ago, Lorathi said:

 

I could agree with that, except that at the Wall, Jon did call Stannis the rightful king (because he remembered Ned dying for that claim). Even though Jon didn't accept Stannis's offer of legitimizing him, he did seem to accept Stannis's authority to do it. Sansa was also hopeful that Stannis would liberate her from Winterfell. From my interpretation, the Starks did seem to view Stannis as a legitimate authority due to his status as Robert Baratheon's brother. I say that to indicate that both Ned and his children regarded Stannis as king, by all indications, so they still considered themselves subjects of the throne.

The fact that D&D failed to reconcile Sansa and Jon's feelings towards Stannis Baratheon with Robb's desire for independence (or rather the rivermen's and the northmen's desires for independence) is yet another example of bad writing.

Sansa never believed in northern independence. She loves the songs and stories of the Seven Kingdoms of yore and Sansa has always wanted peace and security and family. Why does she care about northern independence now? And why has the northern independence movement become so anti-Targaryen when the Ironborn independence movement (the Ironborn of all people!!!) is staunchly pro-Dany.

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Posted (edited)

@Jabar of House Titan A marriage between Jon and Daenerys is logical and would result in a "happy" ending.

However, since the narrative this season is highly illogical and pushes for a tragic ending, then of course no one will even mention the idea to them in the first place.

Guess in my head-canon, Daenerys stands down when the bells start ringing, then she and Jon ends up marrying shorty afterwards because she tells him she's somehow pregnant, and since he doesn't want to father a bastard, he figures "ah what the hell"...

Cheesy? Sure is, but considering that GoT has been a mostly tragic tale most of the time anyway, I wouldn't mind a modicum of happiness in the end, even if it's "cliche".

Edited by MinscS2

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6 hours ago, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

I'm so tired of this argument. It's so dumb. 

It sheds personal responsibility. And this is for ANY character, not just Dany. 

It's not Jon's fault. It's Aerys' fault for being nuts and having children instead of using a Trojan Condom. Shut up. 

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1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

The bottom line fact is she has no claim to the throne compared to Jon. All the Dany fans are furious because Jon told his relatives and others the truth. But because her fans are so fanatical in the their view that she is basically entitled to anything and everything, that fact seems to go unheeded.

In their minds she can do basically anything she wants, and if it goes south it’s always someone else’s fault. They will make every excuse for her behaving the way she does, just look at some of the posts on this thread.

Thank God this isn’t real because some of us who don’t just follow other people blindly would be in some deep shit. . . 

You're absolutely right. Just reading through all the posts in this and other threads these past few weeks has really made me understand how and why people fall into the trap of blindly following a tyrant, no matter what he or she has done. They can do no wrong, and will use any excuse to justify that person's actions. They will continue to enable and support that person at all costs, no matter where it leads. And this is for a fictional character. Imagine how much easier it is in real life. 

All that glitters is not gold. Dany couched her madness by seeking out the love of the commons and those of lesser rank, who in Essos worshipped her and stoked her vanity and pride. She felt she was entitled to being treated like a god because in her mind, she is one because dragons. Without her dragons she is NO ONE. 

There is NO justification for slaughtering a million people. None. And that is on her and her alone. It's not just batshit insane, it's evil. 

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9 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But it's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact.

Aerys II was a sick and twisted man...absolutely foul. There's no comparison between him and Daenerys. If you want to liken Dany to a bad Targaryen king, liken her to Maegor

No Magna Carta, no Petition to the King, no Haandfæstning, no Napoleonic Code, nothing. Several kings and ruling queens who are unwell and otherwise unfit throughout history have been confined to their quarters and their kingdoms ruled by regents.

The fact that Tywin or Rhaegar never did anything about it tells us all we need to know, doesn't it.

I don't disagree with you about any of that. Let me explain. It seems to me that in the show, they are trying to rush the fact that Dany is the Mad Queen. It seems very forced. I feel like there is a lot of reaching. My comment was more wondering if they(the writers) were trying to sprinkle some of the Mad Kings old flair into Current Dany to make it seem that she mad as well.

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This makes no sense and it is all the writers fault. Your expectations were subverted.

1st biggest fight with numerous almost infinite undead, but little girl does it jumping from the sky. Though it was gonna be jon, fragon, danny, bran, hahaha surprise!

2nd dragon dies and ambush, you thought it was gonna be easy didnt you, but dragons are useless now. Surprise!

3rd subversion) dragons overpowered again so wins battle all by itself. Surprise!

Breaker of chains kills populace!  Their heard your complaints about lack of foreshadowing so numerous characters called it. Surprise!

You expected cleganebowl so you expected it not to happen because of subversion, but guess what, subversion subverted, surprise!

 

The way it works is whoever wins has the throne, as seen by multiple people sitting on it. Power, right of conquest. Who has the dragons wins.

Yes, people for propaganda reasons and in search of support use heritage, succession etc. It can be a younger brother, a bastard etc. As seen in westeros history and real middle ages. A new dinasty can be started too. The known existance of possible pretenders or rivals would probably mean their deaths, that is all.

 

A much better case can be made that it was all Tyrion's fault, his bad advise through the last 3 seasons. It also begins with his resistance in KL of the rightful king, Stannis the Mannis.

Tyrion instead of plotting against Lena, keeps enabling her. He also spills the beans to Varys, worshiper of Targeryon sucession. The war started over him, if he was brave like Varys he would have jumped from the moon door or something.

 

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14 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

You're absolutely right. Just reading through all the posts in this and other threads these past few weeks has really made me understand how and why people fall into the trap of blindly following a tyrant, no matter what he or she has done. They can do no wrong, and will use any excuse to justify that person's actions. They will continue to enable and support that person at all costs, no matter where it leads. And this is for a fictional character. Imagine how much easier it is in real life. 

All that glitters is not gold. Dany couched her madness by seeking out the love of the commons and those of lesser rank, who in Essos worshipped her and stoked her vanity and pride. She felt she was entitled to being treated like a god because in her mind, she is one because dragons. Without her dragons she is NO ONE. 

There is NO justification for slaughtering a million people. None. And that is on her and her alone. It's not just batshit insane, it's evil. 

Scary isn’t it...

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5 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

No it's not, you're basically expecting Jon to act like Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer. Jon has not raised by Targaryens, he has raised by Ned Stark and he has Stark blood in his veins. He is nothing like a Targaryen, he just has a Targaryen blood, that's it. It doesn't mean he needs to do that insest practice which is a disgusting thing for the norherners, it's disgusting for Jon which is why even when he loves her he can't do that, he is the son of Ned Stark and raised as a Stark.

This is contrary to the books. According to the books, in Westeros uncle / nephew and aunt / nephew marriages are normal.

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

@Jabar of House Titan A marriage between Jon and Daenerys is logical and would result in a happy ending.

However, since the narrative this season is highly illogical and pushes for a tragic ending, then of course no one will even mention the idea to them in the first place.

 

Not necessarily a happy ending especially if its a political marriage to bring peace to the kingdoms. Dany doesnt need it now the Northmen are following her and killing everyone. 

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Just now, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Not necessarily a happy ending especially if its a political marriage to bring peace to the kingdoms. Dany doesnt need it now the Northmen are following her and killing everyone. 

Feelings aside, Daenerys want Jon's higher claim to go away so she can stop worrying about people trying to depose her in favor of Jon.
Marry him and his higher claim suddenly stops being a problem, quite the opposite in fact; it consolidates her (and Jon's) power.

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14 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

@LadyBlackwater Okay I understand

@Ice Queen This whole thing is weird. It doesn't really make sense. I also find it hard to believe that Dany killed every single last person in King's Landing.

Then you weren't paying attention. It was pretty obvious that she's been nuts since the beginning and this is the end result--anyone who might have been successful at trying to restrain her is now gone. Add to that her family history of insanity and it was bound to happen. 

I doubt Jorah and Ser Barristan would have condoned this. 

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9 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Scary isn’t it...

Yeah. I'm trying to not get political, but the parallels are frightening. 

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

Feelings aside, Daenerys want Jon's higher claim to go away so she can stop worrying about people trying to depose her in favor of Jon.
Marry him and his higher claim suddenly stops being a problem, quite the opposite in fact; it consolidates her (and Jon's) power.

That's a political marriage. One Jon does not want. He does not want the throne or sex with the queen. He just want to serve her. Jon has abdicated he can know take the oath of a kingsguard and have no titles or children. He could have been like Aemon. 

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3 hours ago, weirwoodface said:

There was no conspiracy amongst all of those people against Daenerys. She had no right to demand that Jon keep his true ancestry secret from the women who thought he was their brother. That was asking him to betray them.

If she takes them all down with her, Westeros will be thrown into complete, bloody chaos. Is that really the optimal ending for this story? Khaleesi or death?

Come on, Sansa and Varys began to conspire against Daenerys the moment they knew Jon had a claim. And Tyrion, the oh-so-great-mind, who's supposed to be politically savvy,  was stupid enough to tell Varys, so he has a big share of responsability in Dany's isolation.  So he is double responsible; first for not realizing that Dany was a walking bomb, and second, for helping create the situation that would make that bomb to blow up. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Then you weren't paying attention. It was pretty obvious that she's been nuts since the beginning and this is the end result--anyone who might have been successful at trying to restrain her is now gone. Add to that her family history of insanity and it was bound to happen. 

Not obvious to me, and I've been paying attention. I know all the arguments for insanity, mostly from reading and re-reading the books and watching and re-watching the show, over 5X for both books and show, but also I've got 2000 posts on this forum that has plenty of loud and vocal Dany-haters.

The chance of a child inheriting a parent's schizophrenia or bipolar disorder are about 15%.

file:///C:/Users/gturner/Downloads/Does _Mental _Illness _Run _In _Families _Factsheet (1).pdf

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10 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

That's a political marriage. One Jon does not want. He does not want the throne or sex with the queen. He just want to serve her. Jon has abdicated he can know take the oath of a kingsguard and have no titles or children. He could have been like Aemon. 

He does not want the throne, but he did want sex with the queen until he knew they're family. 

I highly doubt he wants to serve her now that he's seen what she's capable of;  and in his defense, until now he had only seen the best side of her (unlike Tyrion). Why on earth would he take the oath of a kingsguard? Even before knowing what dangerous Dany is, there's no reason to do that. He could have gone away, back to the North, find a good woman and have a family. Aemon did that because he didn't want to be king, but also because he knew his brother Egg would be a better king than him. This is not the case here.

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Just now, LucyMormont said:

He does not want the throne, but he did want sex with the queen until he knew they're family. 

I highly doubt he wants to serve her now that he's seen what she's capable of;  and in his defense, until now he had only seen the best side of her (unlike Tyrion). Why on earth would he take the oath of a kingsguard? Even before knowing what dangerous Dany is, there's no reason to do that. He could have gone away, back to the North, find a good woman and have a family. Aemon did that because he didn't want to be king, but also because he knew his brother Egg would be a better king than him. This is not the case here.

Yea I meant before the massacre. 

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