Jump to content
Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Not obvious to me, and I've been paying attention. I know all the arguments for insanity, mostly from reading and re-reading the books and watching and re-watching the show, over 5X for both books and show, but also I've got 2000 posts on this forum that has plenty of loud and vocal Dany-haters.

The chance of a child inheriting a parent's schizophrenia or bipolar disorder are about 15%.

file:///C:/Users/gturner/Downloads/Does _Mental _Illness _Run _In _Families _Factsheet (1).pdf

15% is a statistically significant number. And how do you know she's not one of those 15%? 

It's obvious, but you have to put aside the fangirl stuff. People see what they want to see. They see what fits their preconceived notions of what a good ruler is. If you think that setting everyone on fire is a good solution to every problem, and that problems with impulse control doesn't indicate a deeper problem, then fine. The rest of us disagree. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any chance Jon secretly wants the throne. But dont want to want it. Because all ever heard was your a bastard. Probably by Sans a too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

I think it was unwise of him not to comfort her, but he should have comforted her because she was his queen was going into a frightening and important battle and needed some support, not because he was worried she would raze the city! The way she said 'oh it's fear then' seems like a way for her to punish and guilt him for not reciprocating her affection, and was borderline abusive. The power dynamics in this relationship are really ugly.

I do agree he acted strangely during the scene. He didn't need to make out with her, he needed to sit her down and comfort her and talk to her about his own experiences. He didn't become beloved in the North over night. He worked hard for it, and she could too (probably not at that point, but he doesn't know that.)

I don't think he 'betrayed her on so many levels.' He told an extremely important fact about himself to his family, who accepts and loves him as a brother. She rejected him as family and asked him to bury his identity to further her claim, she rejected him a Targaryen. She wanted him to stay a northern bastard forever when he was always wanted belonging. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The point that everyone is making is that it would been in everyone's best interest for Jon to follow through on his love to Daenerys (how can you say you love someone and then pull back and turn away...ouch! you already kissed and slept with her multiple times! do you love her or not) marry her and bury all hatchets once and for all. A marriage between the two of them resolves all present and future issues of claims, permanently binds the supporters of Jon and Dany together and provides a very lonely Dany with a strong support system she can trust, thus forging a lasting peace and marking the birth of a new era.

The fact that they are not already married is extremely unrealistic and breaks not only show continuity but also invalidates all of the worldbuilding. In other words, it's another gigantic shark-jumping, plot hole.

Highborn men (acknowledged bastard or otherwise) didn't just have sex a couple times with highborn women that outranked them and not marry them. That's not (nor wasn't) even common among the lowborn common people: they just didn't sleep with whomever and not marry them. That behavior was not only widely seen as dangerous and irresponsible but it was socially unacceptable. Both in the real world and on Planetos. Only active participants of prostitution or sex slavery did stuff like that. And even that was seen as socially unacceptable.

The fact that D&D are pushing a modern Western sex standards onto characters in a world based off of late medieval era, early Renaissance era is, frankly, appalling.

But anyway: Jon's inexplicable (what, are we supposed to guess?!) refusal to do so backs Daenerys into a corner. Not only is it unnecessary and a bit selfish but it is a massive political, socioeconomic and military blunder. Jon Snow is one of the few remaining characters that are still operating within character. Because Jon makes one big mistake after another after another but he suffers no real, lasting consequences.

That's what people are trying to tell you guys when they say: this is all Jon's fault.

This is why I said "How can you disregard Bad Writing"? They never TALK about anything like that. Im not even sure if they even talk about her being his Aunt on the show (he and Dany). Anybody in that kind of situation would be very confused and would need time. Im not gonna find out the girl I love is my Aunt and not be taken aback. Thats the unrealistic part. They never address it which is bad writing because if they did Dany would likely understand his hesitance. Instead its all about the throne. The problem isn't that Jon turns her down... its about him telling Sansa about his parentage which... Doesn't make any sense.  Which was written in because its the only way to drive the conflict between her and jon. If he said I swear them to secrecy and im not going to tell Sansa, there wouldn't be much conflict.... 

But the bottom line is that Dany going Mad is NOT jons responsibility. She doesn't listen to his council... He's obviously not commanding her armies. And he's literally the rightful King. All she wants is the D which he may not feel comfortable with at the moment. Maybe in time.... But he's only had 2 episodes to figure it out.. 

Jon is the NOT in character at all. If you're referring to show or books. prior to his Death, Jon was a commander. He led and made tough decisions. Decision that were the right ones even if they went against his oaths. Book Jon is a very different smarter character and even gave sage council and strategy to king (at the time) Stannis. Jon wasn't wrong about who the Nightswatch should be concerned with... thier war wasn't with the Wildlings, they was charged to guard against the Others. Jons mistakes were what? upsetting the applecart... the status quo? 

Its likely due too Jon still being Dead in the books and they just don't know how to write him without him being too HERO-EY. So they make him a bystander or a plot driven device to help drive Sansa's change and now Dany's change. He didn't win the Battle of the Bastards Sansa Did, He didn't beat the Night King, Arya Did. Only thing Jon seemed to take part in was his forced decision tell Sansa and Arya about who he was. They have no clue what to do with him as a character.  

Jon has been misrepresented since his resurrection. Ghosts his best bud... they are never together and he doesn't pet him when he sends him north... basically ignores ghost for like 3 seasons or more.  Is that his character acting within character? or show budget because the show runners admitted it to be budgetary. People hated Jon for that but it wasn't his character that controlled that it was the Show Budget. 

So in the end its al about the writing but ultimately what you're saying about Jon being responsible is wrong. Just cause i decide i can't sleep with you (because Marrage was NEVER discussed) doesn't give Dany the right to slaughter Hundreds of thousands. i don't know how anybody can think this. However Sh!tty they write Jon he's not responsible.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Daemos said:

Tyrion fucked his credibility. He also should’ve advised Jon and Dany to marry for the greater good. But it was too late.

I don't know if that's possible even if it was brought up. Dany doesnt want to live in a world where Jon is more popular and more likely to side with his family than her, apparently. If Dany really wanted it, she would have mentioned it. She has a functioning brain. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

@ramla Daenerys doesn't listen to Jon's counsel.

Oh.

Looks like D&D aren't the only ones suffering from self-delusion and willful amnesia.

 

Well the conversation is about Her burning the city and it being jons responsibility. Im specifically talking about the events leading to that change in her not their whole relationship from last season which doesn't really play into much of this at all.  I shouldn't have to even say that but I guess I have to. You haven't proven why Jon is responsible for Dany's deeds yet. Just that he didn't just go along with everything she wanted. Which isn't again his responsibility. Address the rest of what i said not just the one part you thought u had me at. 

Also, show me were he councils her to burn Kings landing.

Edited by ramla

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"A Targaryen, alone in the world.  It's a terrible thing!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Dany really wanted it, she would have mentioned it. She has a functioning brain. 

The script doesn't allow her (nor Jon) to mention anything regarding a marriage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

What are you talking about? He betrayed her on no levels. He was a supplicant. Are you trying to say he had to put his penis in her to prevent her from killing thousands of people? He was there for her by the fire, and he even made out with his aunt a little. How much more can you ask?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

@Jabar of House Titan A marriage between Jon and Daenerys is logical and would result in a "happy" ending.

However, since the narrative this season is highly illogical and pushes for a tragic ending, then of course no one will even mention the idea to them in the first place.

Guess in my head-canon, Daenerys stands down when the bells start ringing, then she and Jon ends up marrying shorty afterwards because she tells him she's somehow pregnant, and since he doesn't want to father a bastard, he figures "ah what the hell"...

Cheesy? Sure is, but considering that GoT has been a mostly tragic tale most of the time anyway, I wouldn't mind a modicum of happiness in the end, even if it's "cliche".

You're right. The last two episodes:
IMDB 
Ep.4 - 6.2
Ep.5 - 6.8 (and still going down)

Rotten Tomato:
Ep.4 - 57%
Ep.5 - 47%

You can blame it on the script, but the script began to go down from season 6-7. We can find thousands of other reasons to defend  the end of this story but the true is that fans didn't want this end.

To quote a question
"Why built up characters only to ruin them?"

Edited by loverofcats

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

@Jabar of House Titan <snip> Sure is, but considering that GoT has been a mostly tragic tale most of the time anyway, I wouldn't mind a modicum of happiness in the end, even if it's "cliche".

One way to look at it is that there has been so much tragedy, so much subversion of convention, that a happy ending would be an unexpected surprise. And perhaps the point of all the subversion would be to give you a better happy ending than you could otherwise ever get--because otherwise, who is going to ever be surprised by a standard happy ending?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Daemos said:

The incestuous part of their relationship is irrelevant. We should not judge them based on our morals. In that universe, and in their heritage it is acceptable. Dany is most likely barren also so there is little to no risk of them have children. He clearly loved her and she would die for him. They needed one another to be there for one another so they don’t destroy themselves and others.

 

Dany has paid the price for his betrayal. She is now the Queen of Ashes and will most likely die. Now it is his turn to pay the personal price.

Uh, how about we judge it by the standards of Jon Snow, who finds incest icky. 

What betrayal? He was all "muh Queen" all the way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

One way to look at it is that there has been so much tragedy, so much subversion of convention, that a happy ending would be an unexpected surprise. And perhaps the point of all the subversion would be to give you a better happy ending than you could otherwise ever get--because otherwise, who is going to ever be surprised by a standard happy ending?

Well, if nothing else, the latest episodes have lowered my expectations to such a degree that an ending that I a mere month ago would've considered tragic or outright shit, is currently looking pretty good, which is a feat from the show writers in itself.
No need to subvert expectations if you simply cause them to hit rock bottom right?

And then I remember that nope, it will get even worse before this is all over...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

The script doesn't allow her (nor Jon) to mention anything regarding a marriage. 

Which is aggravating, because Jon was an obvious choice the minute the show brought up a potential marriage alliance for Danny. Which was two seasons ago. Even before the incest thing came to light no one seriously discussed it for no reason. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, darmody said:

Which is aggravating, because Jon was an obvious choice the minute the show brought up a potential marriage alliance for Danny. Which was two seasons ago. Even before the incest thing came to light no one seriously discussed it for no reason. 

And by the laws of logic coherent thought, is something that either or both of them should've brought up by now.

They love each other (or at least, did), they are both powerful, and a marriage would consolidate their power - and genuinely, people in their position don't fuck around (literally) for the joy of it. They would (especially Jon) be more or less honor bound to marry as soon as the boat anchored between S7 and S8. Add a sprinkle of Daenerys feeling threatened by the higher claim of the man she loves and there really are no logical explanation for them not mentioning it ONCE, other than the script simply telling them not to...

But nope, a marriage back in episode 2 or even 4, before Daenerys lost it would've been too easy, too happy and too logical. Can't have that.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Until the next episode proves me wrong I'll claim that Dany DID NOT "snap".

It was necessary evil.

But I do agree that Jon failed, partly because at this point she defeated him and by doing so perhaps also saved him.

If I'm right then this is GRRM class plot albeit rushed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

The script doesn't allow her (nor Jon) to mention anything regarding a marriage. 

It still works as an explanation in-universe for me.

It was never a marriage of equal kind of relationship for her.

Dany doesn't want to share power with a man. She wants him as a supplicant and fuckboy. A more honorable Daario. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lorathi said:

 

I could agree with that, except that at the Wall, Jon did call Stannis the rightful king (because he remembered Ned dying for that claim). Even though Jon didn't accept Stannis's offer of legitimizing him, he did seem to accept Stannis's authority to do it. Sansa was also hopeful that Stannis would liberate her from Winterfell. From my interpretation, the Starks did seem to view Stannis as a legitimate authority due to his status as Robert Baratheon's brother. I say that to indicate that both Ned and his children regarded Stannis as king, by all indications, so they still considered themselves subjects of the throne.

Jon was a brother of the Night's Watch, sworn to stay out of politics. Being legitimized as a Stark was tempting, and he did seem to support Stannis' claim to the Iron Throne. But that doesn't mean he would have denied Robb's claim to kingship. In fact, he later accepted the Northern monarchy as Robb's heir. 

Sansa just wanted to be saved. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ramla said:

Well the conversation is about Her burning the city and it being jons responsibility. Im specifically talking about the events leading to that change in her not their whole relationship from last season which doesn't really play into much of this at all.  I shouldn't have to even say that but I guess I have to. You haven't proven why Jon is responsible for Dany's deeds yet. Just that he didn't just go along with everything she wanted. Which isn't again his responsibility. Address the rest of what i said not just the one part you thought u had me at. 

 

No matter what the conversation is about you said that Daenerys does not listen to Jon. However, that is not true. I showed you that the exact opposite is true.

Outside of Grey Worm and her still nameless Dothraki lieutenants (which are called them kos or bloodriders), Jon is the only person who she listens to now.

The post that you originally quoted from me has my explanation and the proof of how Jon is partially responsible for the "fall" of Daenerys. If he would have married her or just even just explained his feelings for her, she would be more secure and more confident if not happier. There is no reason for them not to have been married at this point. Noblemen don't just openly sleep with and cavort noblewomen without any betrothal or engagement. That's a massive dishonor and a black mark against both the man and the woman (especially the woman)

If Jon was truly so honorable, he should have proposed and insisted upon the marriage himself. That's the whole reason Robb decided to marry Talisa. He slept with her and she's a highborn woman (as foreign as she is) and he married her because he is honorable and did not want to dishonor her.

Instead of pressing Jon to backstab and overthrow Daenerys or worrying about saving Cersei, Varys and Tyrion should have been pressuring Jon and Daenerys to marry. It is the most sensible, cleanest thing to do. They already have a history and they already like each other.

In fact, a marriage between them would have makes the conflict between Jon and Daenerys and then Jon and Sansa in season 7 even more redundant and irrelevant. Marriage between them would given the North to Dany and given the Unsullied and the Dothraki to Jon. They both get what they want (Dany gets another one of the Seven Kingdoms without bloodshed and Jon gets a gigantic army and the rights to Dragonstone's dragonglass) and set out to kick ass of their enemies.

I'm not saying it had to happen the moment that they met each other in 7x03. But the engagement definitely should have happened by the end of 7x06. If not in, 7x07. Dany is a romantic and Jon is too in the way. Lots of really romantic, memorable spots:

  • the precipices of Dragonstone
  • the beaches of Dragonstone
  • the cave with the ominous, yet-to-be-explained paintings of the White Walkers, the Children of the Forest and the First Men on Dragonstone
  • the Chamber of the Painted Table, overlooking the sea
  • atop the Wall overlooking both sides of Westeros
  • on the boat underneath the stars
  • the Dragonpit

If they had to wait to have the wedding in White Harbor or Winterfell to send a clear political message, then have the two walk up to a heart tree in the godswoods of White Harbor or Winterfell in 8x01.

Sansa, the political genius that we all know her to be, should have made this a mandatory issue that Daenerys and Jon would have been glad to accept. Even Littlefinger saw the brilliance in such a maneuver.

Daenerys saved Jon's life twice. Once is enough to be indebted to her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×