Jump to content
Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

Recommended Posts

Just now, TwiceBorn said:

Until the next episode proves me wrong I'll claim that Dany DID NOT "snap".

It was necessary evil.

But I do agree that Jon failed, partly because at this point she defeated him and by doing so perhaps also saved him.

If I'm right then this is GRRM class plot albeit rushed.

I think that fact that so much emphases was spent on "bells = surrender," and we got a long bell-tolling PLUS we saw the Lannister commander throwing his sword down at Jon's feat make the "necessary evil" argument a stretch. They did all that specifically to highlight that burning down the entire population of KL was strictly optional and just something Daenerys wanted to do for personal reasons (whatever they may have been).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It still works as an explanation in-universe for me.

It was never a marriage of equal kind of relationship for her.

Dany doesn't want to share power with a man. She wants him as a supplicant and fuckboy. A more honorable Daario. 

Daenerys reasoning back in S6E10 doesn't agree with you. She wanted to marry in order to cement an alliance, not because she wanted a fuckboy.

As of S7E4, it was clear that the only eligible bachelor remaining in the Seven Kingdoms where a marriage would also result in powerful military alliance was *drumroll* Jon Snow, a man she fell in love with a few episodes later. 

Still no talk about marriage alliances though because...again, it would make too much sense and would give us a too happy an ending. Not to mention all the "awesome northern drama" we would've missed out on this season if they had been married. :rolleyes:

Seriously, fuck season 8...

Edited by MinscS2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It still works as an explanation in-universe for me.

It was never a marriage of equal kind of relationship for her.

Dany doesn't want to share power with a man. She wants him as a supplicant and fuckboy. A more honorable Daario. 

That's not the point of marriage. She could have an eff-boy if she desired. She doesn't want to share power because she viewed herself as the rightful claimant to the Iron Throne. Which is the way Jon still views it, despite his superior claim. 

They fell in love (supposedly) before either knew about his parentage. He gave up his kingship for her while gaining nothing in return. Why didn't they get engaged right then on the boat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Not obvious to me, and I've been paying attention. I know all the arguments for insanity, mostly from reading and re-reading the books and watching and re-watching the show, over 5X for both books and show, but also I've got 2000 posts on this forum that has plenty of loud and vocal Dany-haters.

The chance of a child inheriting a parent's schizophrenia or bipolar disorder are about 15%.

file:///C:/Users/gturner/Downloads/Does _Mental _Illness _Run _In _Families _Factsheet (1).pdf

Does that take into account Danny being the product of sibling incest, as well as generations of inbreeding going backwards?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MinscS2 said:

Daenerys reasoning back in S6E10 doesn't agree with you. She wanted to marry in order to cement an alliance, not because she wanted a fuckboy.

As of S7E4, it was clear that the only eligible bachelor remaining in the Seven Kingdoms where a marriage would also result in powerful military alliance was *drumroll* Jon Snow, a man she fell in love with a few episodes later. 

Still no talk about marriage alliances though because...again, it would make too much sense and would make us a too happy an ending. 

Dany contradicts herself?? Dany doesn't do something that would have benefitted her?? News at 11. 

She'd never met a king before this storyline. She is fine with taking away his title because she benefited from it. No co-equal marriage alliances for her because she's not the type. She says she'd wish she'd never known his parentage and wishes he was just Ned Stark's bastard without a title. And he knows how messed up the pressure to bend the knee was...He gave her a "look" when he burned Lyanna Mormont's body. She wasn't asking for it in that knee bend scene, but he knows, this is what she truly wanted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany contradicts herself?? Dany doesn't do something that would have benefitted her?? News at 11. 

This really can be said about most of the characters this season though, can't it?

I'm tired of saying it, but so many characters behave like stupid idiots this season by not saying or doing the most obvious, logical thing - for no other reason than the script preventing them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany contradicts herself?? Dany doesn't do something that would have benefitted her?? News at 11. 

She'd never met a king before this storyline. She is fine with taking away his title because she benefited from it. No co-equal marriage alliances for her because she's not the type. She says she'd wish she'd never known his parentage and wishes he was just Ned Stark's bastard without a title. And he knows how messed up the pressure to bend the knee was...He gave her a "look" when he burned Lyanna Mormont's body. She wasn't asking for it in that knee bend scene, but he knows, this is what she truly wanted.

We're not talking about Danny alone. Jon, Tyrion, Varys, Sansa, not one of them mentions it except in passing. Why?

She's supposed to be queen, you know, and has in the past demonstrated working knowledge of basic politics. Including marital politics, considering she was going to marry that prominent Mereenian before the fighting pit battle. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, darmody said:

That's not the point of marriage. She could have an eff-boy if she desired. She doesn't want to share power because she viewed herself as the rightful claimant to the Iron Throne. Which is the way Jon still views it, despite his superior claim. 

They fell in love (supposedly) before either knew about his parentage. He gave up his kingship for her while gaining nothing in return. Why didn't they get engaged right then on the boat?

Even when he was a king, she was fine with him being a supplicant. She made him into a Daario.

The show won't say it but the books would. My guess is at that point he was a bastard and not worthy of a marriage to a Great House. The almighty blood of the dragon would never marry a bastard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While the final decision to raze Kings Landing was Dany's and therefore ultimately her responsibility, Jon is certainly at fault for putting the choice in front of her and for not understanding what she would choose when the time came to make the choice.  Jon really does know nothing.

His decision to tell his family about his true heritage, rather than hide it, is the tragic flaw of the Stark honor writ large.  Dany understood exactly what would happen if he told them, and exactly what she would have to do to secure the throne once the secret got out.  It's why she lowered herself to beg him not to do it.  She was at least self aware enough to know she wasn't going to give up the throne.

Jon's failure here is twofold, first in not understanding the politics of the Kingdom and what was going on between Dany and Sansa, and secondly in not understanding how committed Dany was to winning the throne.  Once again, Jon really does know nothing.

I can almost forgive Jon for not understanding that Dany would not give up the quest for the throne for any reason.  She was actively trying to hide that from nearly everyone.  She fooled a lot of people with her talk of breaking wheels and freeing slaves.

But I can't forgive him for not understanding that his decision to tell Sansa would mean that Dany would not be able to rightfully claim the throne.  I don't forgive him for thinking that what he told Dany, that she would always be his Queen, would trump doing what she begged him not to do.  If he was choosing honor and family over fealty to her then, why in the world would he choose her over honor and family when they asked to anoint him as rightful heir?  If he believed that Sansa would keep his secret, then he truly knows nothing!

And of course the real tragedy is that Jon does have one thing right.  He shouldn't be King.  He would likely be worse than Robert Baratheon, the last reluctant king who was really nothing more than a somewhat inspiring battlefield commander with no interest in ruling or how to rule.  Hopefully, when Dany is assassinated and Jon is risen to King, he will at least remember that, end the Iron Throne rule over the kingdoms, then exile himself to the north.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Hoo said:

"A Targaryen, alone in the world.  It's a terrible thing!"

Yet Samwell never honors Maester Aemon's wishes (and Samwell loved Aemon) 

10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It still works as an explanation in-universe for me.

It was never a marriage of equal kind of relationship for her.

Dany doesn't want to share power with a man. She wants him as a supplicant and fuckboy. A more honorable Daario. 

You told a lie.

Hilariously enough, this is a scene in a episode written by wait for it....D.B. Weiss and David Benioff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, olibar said:

But I can't forgive him for not understanding that his decision to tell Sansa would mean that Dany would not be able to rightfully claim the throne.  I don't forgive him for thinking that what he told Dany, that she would always be his Queen, would trump doing what she begged him not to do.  If he was choosing honor and family over fealty to her then, why in the world would he choose her over honor and family when they asked to anoint him as rightful heir?  If he believed that Sansa would keep his secret, then he truly knows nothing!

I think it was a cry for help and he wanted out of this relationship. If you look closely at the scene where Varys informs that he knows the truth, he has a half-smile to himself as he's thinking about the implications.

I think he told her the truth because he didnt want to have sex with her anymore. I don't think he ever really loved her and I think it was purely a business relationship but she wanted more, so he couldn't exactly turn down her advances. It would have ruined his efforts. 

Once it got scary and Dany started to threaten people, he was always going to choose his family, to protect them FROM her. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yet Samwell never honors Maester Aemon's wishes (and Samwell loved Aemon) 

You told a lie.



Hilariously enough, this is a scene in a episode written by wait for it....D.B. Weiss and David Benioff.

You realize she's only doing that because Tyrion told her to do it, right? 

She'd prefer a chain of Daarios. 

She's on a long slide to not listening to her advisors. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

You realize she's only doing that because Tyrion told her to do it, right? 

She'd prefer a chain of Daarios. 

She's on a long slide to not listening to her advisors. 

You're all over the place.

One moment you say "Daenerys is only doing that because Tyrion told her to do it" and then two sentences later you're saying "Daenerys is on a long slide to not listening to her advisors."

LMAO which is it?

If she'd truly prefer a chain of Daarios, why didn't she take Daario, the first link in her chain, with her? Why did she skeptically raise the question of Daario wanting to be her mistress and then deny him when he all but said yes, please take me for your male mistress.

D&D are peeing on you guys and you all think it is snow on Christmas Day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is pretty interesting: in season 7 it was Jon who made Dany not burn KL because "wouldn't be different, just more of the same" after her advisors failed convincing her. 

It's not on him that it happened though: its on Cersei - who decided provoking the enemy and then using human shields - and Dany, who let herself get provoked into firefest mode.

Some of it is down to the Sons of the Harpy as well because if not for them Dany wouldn't be as paranoid about guerrilla warfare and what soft conquests might ensue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, aquintus said:

It's especially weak since 1) the story is based on medieval history where aunt-nephew marriages were fairly common and accepted, especially amongst the nobility, and 2) even in a Song of Ice and Fire itself, there was an entire plotline where Alys Karstarks' uncle was trying to force her to marry him so he could take over Karhold. 

First cousin marriages appear to be acceptable in Westeros, but I don't recall any instance of aunt-nephew or uncle-niece marriages except by the Targaryens, who already get away with siblings marriages. Incest is considered a grievous sin by both old gods and new, and while Jon might biologically be a male line Targaryen, that knowledge is brand new to him. 

Arnolf and Lord Rickard's father were brothers. Arnolf's son Cregan and Lord Rickard are first cousins. And Arnolf wants to wed his son Cregan to Lord Rickard's daughter Alys. So no, that is not comparable to Dany being the full sister of Jon's father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

Call me foolish but I'm begining to think Dany isn't going mad and we are being gaslighted into thinking that. Her actions in Kings landing was just to demonstrate the consequences of defying the new ruler of Westeros. This is her Dresden. A terrible act but one that will show the great houses who may quarrel with her position that there is only one opinion that matters. Hers.

At least I hope this is the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Sigella said:

This is pretty interesting: in season 7 it was Jon who made Dany not burn the Red Keep because "wouldn't be different, just more of the same" after her advisors failed convincing her. 

It's not on him that it happened though: its on Cersei - who decided provoking the enemy and then using human shields - and Dany, who let herself get provoked into firefest mode.

Some of it is down to the Sons of the Harpy as well because if not for them Dany wouldn't be as paranoid about guerrilla warfare and what soft conquests might ensue.

Fixed B)

That's a good point about the Sons of the Harpy. A particularly painful memory for her.

In the original outline in regards to the trilogy, GRRM wanted Dany to take the Iron Throne at the conclusion of A Dance with Dragons leaving her to govern the Seven Kingdoms when the Others invade in The Winds of Winter.

I think a lot of the Meereen stuff (including Qarth's thirst for vengeance, Yunkai backsliding into slavery and the horror that befell Astapor) that made the cut has its roots in Dany struggling to acclimate herself to the rule of King's Landing and southern Westeros. The Faith Militant thing might have always been the case and the Sons of the Harpy probably were an offshoot of the sparrow disgust movement, the Citadel's anti-magic stance and the fears and jealousies of the lords of Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

Call me foolish but I'm begining to think Dany isn't going mad and we are being gaslighted into thinking that. Her actions in Kings landing was just to demonstrate the consequences of defying the new ruler of Westeros. This is her Dresden. A terrible act but one that will show the great houses who may quarrel with her position that there is only one opinion that matters. Hers.

At least I hope this is the case.

She had already destroyed all of KL's defenses against her dragon, had secured the surrender of the Lannister soldiers, and had a clear line to the Red Keep where Cersei was. It's not as though smallfolk just happened to be killed in large numbers in her attacks against the Lannister forces. She intentionally chose to target, chase down, and murder masses of innocent smallfolk with dragonfire. Intentionally mass murdering smallfolk doesn't show the great lords shit. And which great lords is she supposed to be showing anything to? The Baratheons? The Starks? The Greyjoys? The Arryns? They have all already accepted her as their queen. Cersei has nobody, which is why she had to hire the foreign Golden Company. Dany is irredeemable. She just committed the most horrific act of mass murder against innocents in Westerosi history.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dany gave all of westeros a message

"I own you all, now you've seen what i'll do to your city if you piss me off"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think he told her the truth because he didnt want to have sex with her anymore. I don't think he ever really loved her and I think it was purely a business relationship but she wanted more, so he couldn't exactly turn down her advances. It would have ruined his efforts.  

 

Cool. This is the dumbest thing someone has ever written, in regard to GoT. It is even dumber than S08E04. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×