Jump to content
Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, olibar said:

That's a really good point.  Had Dany accepted the surrender, Cersei likely would have escaped and could have potentially tried to gather support to throw out the Usurper from Essos.  So another strong reason why Dany did what she did.

As far as Cersei is concerned, the Lannister men who threw down their swords were traitors who needed to be severely punished.

She literally was counting on them not to throw down their swords and to keep fighting. No doubt she had issued the orders.

Besides, why were the Unsullied, the Stark bannermen and the Lannister bannermen just standing in the street staring at each other once the Lannister bannermen right there had thrown down their swords. It's illogical. They are supposed to be immediately shuffled off, stripped of their armor and taken into custody where they can be dealt with later.

And it makes no sense that Cersei who had sent an assassin after Jaime (even though she had the perfect chance to kill him in last season's finale) and willfully made Jaime look like a fool would greet Jaime in the way that she does.

3 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Ygritte makes it pretty clear how the North feels about it and gives Jon a lecture about sleeping even with people from your own village, never mind a close relative. If I remember right, Jon asks her if she slept with Longspear Ryk. 

There's a difference between wildlings and northmen.

And not even all wildlings are the same.

Craster makes his own daughters and granddaughters his wives and sacrifices his sons to the White Walkers. Ygritte insists that women must be kidnapped and added to the ranks of the village. Osha had a husband who was loving, gentle and smart, fought the undead herself and laid eyes on a White Walker. The Thenns are cannibals. Rattleshirt hates Tormund for his relationship with Jon. The giants hate kneelers for pushing them to the brink of extinction.

All wildlings are not the same. They fuss and fight all the time. That's the point. That's why Mance Rayder and then Jon Snow are so special.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

As far as Cersei is concerned, the Lannister men who threw down their swords were traitors who needed to be severely punished.

She literally was counting on them not to throw down their swords and to keep fighting. No doubt she had issued the orders.

Besides, why were the Unsullied, the Stark bannermen and the Lannister bannermen just standing in the street staring at each other once the Lannister bannermen right there had thrown down their swords. It's illogical. They are supposed to be immediately shuffled off, stripped of their armor and taken into custody where they can be dealt with later.

And it makes no sense that Cersei who had sent an assassin after Jaime (even though she had the perfect chance to kill him in last season's finale) and willfully made Jaime look like a fool would greet Jaime in the way that she does.

There's a difference between wildlings and northmen.

And not even all wildlings are the same.

Craster makes his own daughters and granddaughters his wives and sacrifices his sons to the White Walkers. Ygritte insists that women must be kidnapped and added to the ranks of the village. Osha had a husband who was loving, gentle and smart, fought the undead herself and laid eyes on a White Walker. The Thenns are cannibals. Rattleshirt hates Tormund for his relationship with Jon. The giants hate kneelers for pushing them to the brink of extinction.

All wildlings are not the same. They fuss and fight all the time. That's the point. That's why Mance Rayder and then Jon Snow are so special.

Craster was reviled by everyone for it. Didn't some of the Watch want to kill him because of it?And he was sacrificing to the Others...had to get those boys from somewhere, right? 

Wildlings ARE northerners. They all share the blood of the First Men and the old gods. Their views are in line with the rest of the North.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Daemos said:

Both Jon and Dany come from families with an incestuous history. The idea that he could not reciprocate because they are related by blood is illogical and weak. 

It's illogical that Jon is personally repelled by incest? Why, because his grandparents did it? No. 

Jon never planned on having a family. I'm sure he would bring himself to marry Danny if he thought it his duty, but he doesn't have to like it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About incest and the North. According to a Wiki of Ice and Fire: "... in the north, Serena Stark had been wed to her half-uncle, Edric, while her sister Sansa Stark had been wed to her half-uncle Jonnel Stark."

And, cousins who are wed, include:

"Rickard and Lyarra Stark (first cousins once removed)."

Plus, Sansa doesn't recoil at the notion of marrying Robert Arryn on the sole basis that they are first cousins.

About Jon: the sense I get of him is that he was taken but never in love with Daenerys, and there was always some wariness/fear where she was concerned.

It would've been interesting if Jon decided to propose to Daenerys to assuage her fears. My personal take has always been that Daenerys wants to rule not be someone's consort. Her descent to utter ruthlessness could have been better presaged if it'd been preceded by her denying to take the route of wedding to cement her claim. 

About Daenerys: I liked her, and I always had a notion this was where she was heading. I'd say there has been meta and in-text foreshadowing throughout both the books and the tv series.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Craster was reviled by everyone for it. Didn't some of the Watch want to kill him because of it?And he was sacrificing to the Others...had to get those boys from somewhere, right? 

Wildlings ARE northerners. They all share the blood of the First Men and the old gods. Their views are in line with the rest of the North.

So the men in the North kidnap women in the hopes that the woman will fight back and then lose which then means that will be married and live happily ever after?

If their views are in line with the rest of the North, can you explain the issue the Northerners loyal to the Boltons had with Jon Snow letting the wildlings past the Wall in season 6?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, olibar said:

That's a really good point.  Had Dany accepted the surrender, Cersei likely would have escaped and could have potentially tried to gather support to throw out the Usurper from Essos.  So another strong reason why Dany did what she did.

Not all that likely. Aside from Jaime's dinghy, what did she have? Her fleet was gone. No army. Her credit can't be very good after squandering the Golden Company like that. She didn't appear to have an escape plan. Just hoping Drogo would be shot down. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, elle_by_the_sea said:

 

Plus, Sansa doesn't recoil at the notion of marrying Robert Arryn on the sole basis that they are first cousins.

 

Sansa was happy to be alive. 

Aunt-nephew is closer than cousin-cousin in normal cases. Moreso in the case of Targaryens. However, I think Jon might be persuaded to marry her. Because marriages don't have to be about love, sex, or even procreation. Danny thinks she's barren. They'd only have to sex eachother once to consummate, then they could agree to name the child of Sansa their Targaryen heir, or something like that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, DraculaAD1972 said:

 Dany burned Kings Landing because she can - not because she is mad. It was a strategic move to subjugate Westeros. She cannot trust a single Westeros Lord and the North is already sowing the seeds of rebellion thanks to Sansa.

Dany burning the city is her announcement to the lords , ladies and littlefolk of Westeros- that the grown up has arrived and the childrens game is over,

Until someone puts a sword thru her on Sunday lmao

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

So the men in the North kidnap women in the hopes that the woman will fight back and then lose which then means that will be married and live happily ever after?

If their views are in line with the rest of the North, can you explain the issue the Northerners loyal to the Boltons had with Jon Snow letting the wildlings past the Wall in season 6?

Textual evidence?

The Flint and the Norrey came to Alys Karstark's marriage to Sigorn and didn't put up a fuss at all. There's going to be a wildling lord in Karhold and nobody cares. 

Mance and six wildling women risk their necks to save Jeyne Poole. One even gets pissed at Theon for saying Lord Eddard's words--she even calls him Lord Eddard. 

The only difference between the wildlings and the rest of the North is that some were on the right side of the Wall when it was built. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, darmody said:

Sansa was happy to be alive.  

And we are inside her POV. If she held feelings of true disgust about the possibility *specifically* because of the blood relation, she'd have made a mention of it. She's been happy to be alive plenty and still alluded to what her true take on matters are.

Yes, consanguinity between uncle-aunt/nephew-niece is in medieval laws closer than first cousins. In the context of the series, we're not exactly certain. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, elle_by_the_sea said:

Yes, consanguinity between uncle-aunt/nephew-niece is in medieval laws closer than first cousins. In the context of the series, we're not exactly certain. 

It's simple mathematics. And Jon knows his grandparents were brother and sister, which makes it worse. 

Not that he's doing math in his head. He probably just has a visceral reaction. But remember, Sansa was raised to be paired off politically. Jon spent his whole life repressing sexual desire, and only ever had sex with one girl before Danny. And that was when giving in to her would help save his life while he was in the enemy camp pretending to be a traitor. 

He turned down Melisandre because of his vows, yes, but also because he was still in love. Finally, he gets intimate with Danny, then discovers she's his aunt. And what is it, like a week later? I can see why he'd be hesitant. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Because of her experiences down south. That’s the whole point of her arc. She learned the hard way that those things she wanted and believed at the beginning of the story was just her being naive. She’s grown and learned the hard way.

Except there's virtually nothing in the books or show to indicate that anything Sansa learned led her to prefer Northern independence. In fact, most of the hard shit she suffered arose because of the war that happened when the North declared itself independent. Her happy childhood was in a united realm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Textual evidence?

The Flint and the Norrey came to Alys Karstark's marriage to Sigorn and didn't put up a fuss at all. There's going to be a wildling lord in Karhold and nobody cares. 

Mance and six wildling women risk their necks to save Jeyne Poole. One even gets pissed at Theon for saying Lord Eddard's words--she even calls him Lord Eddard. 

The only difference between the wildlings and the rest of the North is that some were on the right side of the Wall when it was built. 

And some were taken on the other side of the Wall.

What? Do you really think that the spearwife who hates Theon, who repeatedly calls Eddard Stark her Lord (odd for a kneeler) and who refers to Bran and Rickon with an air of affection that would be uncommon to a Free Folk woman who doesn't know Bran and Rickon from two sticks in the mud was born on the north side of the Wall?

The heads of Houses Flint and Norrey didn't attend Alys Karstark's wedding because they were in a celebratory mood. They attended the wedding to bring their grievances and concerns about wildlings south of the Wall to Jon's attention. They were not happy about the marriage, they weren't happy about wildlings manning the castles and they were very unhappy about wildling families settling in the Gift.

Textual evidence? A Storm of Swords, chapters 15 and 26

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Except there's virtually nothing in the books or show to indicate that anything Sansa learned led her to prefer Northern independence. In fact, most of the hard shit she suffered arose because of the war that happened when the North declared itself independent. Her happy childhood was in a united realm.

Ok but are we talking book Sansa or show Sansa? Two very different characters...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Except there's virtually nothing in the books or show to indicate that anything Sansa learned led her to prefer Northern independence. In fact, most of the hard shit she suffered arose because of the war that happened when the North declared itself independent. Her happy childhood was in a united realm.

She probably just saw how Dany had qualities reminiscent of Cersei (ego, power trip, entitlement, enjoys having power over others) and said "nope." Why would Sansa want to subject herself to another queen's demands? Especially when she thinks those demands aren't good decisions?

The show didn't bring this up but in Fire and Blood, Targaryens arranged marriages in the North. Dany could decide who Sansa will marry.

Independence is what the Northerners wanted too. The wanted it in S1 then got hope again for a Stark revival in S6. Sansa's interests and their interests align. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m furious at Jon for being a useless, clueless weak willed spineless idiot. But it makes sense to his character, like Ned, to be blind to anything but the most simplistic form of honour. If he ends up on the throne after this then I’ll be livid. He deserves nothing in my eyes now. I hope he goes into the deep north & never forgets what he helped to do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I’m furious at Jon for being a useless, clueless weak willed spineless idiot. But it makes sense to his character, like Ned, to be blind to anything but the most simplistic form of honour. If he ends up on the throne after this then I’ll be livid. He deserves nothing in my eyes now. I hope he goes into the deep north & never forgets what he helped to do. 

Well personally I think you should be furious with Dumb and Dumber and not Jon or anybody else in this series. I believe the one thing we can all agree on regardless of who’s camp we’re in is that these guys have butchered a good story with inconsistent writing. 

These characters have all been dumbed down when the show plot called for a certain result. That’s why we’re all bickering and sniping at how certain things have played out. The books would probably end up with the exact same finish or at least close enough to not make much of a difference, but the way the characters would get there would be much different and make much more sense.

The sad flip side of that coin is that GRRM will probably never finish the series so this is more than likely all we’ll get: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/13/idiocy-on-the-internet/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, darmody said:

It's simple mathematics. And Jon knows his grandparents were brother and sister, which makes it worse. 

Not that he's doing math in his head. He probably just has a visceral reaction. But remember, Sansa was raised to be paired off politically. Jon spent his whole life repressing sexual desire, and only ever had sex with one girl before Danny. And that was when giving in to her would help save his life while he was in the enemy camp pretending to be a traitor. 

He turned down Melisandre because of his vows, yes, but also because he was still in love. Finally, he gets intimate with Danny, then discovers she's his aunt. And what is it, like a week later? I can see why he'd be hesitant. 

It is impossible for it to be a week later.

It takes well over a month to travel from Winterfell and King's Landing. It's a little over one thousand miles away remember.

And it's not like Dragonstone is right down the road from King's Landing. It has to be at least 100-200 miles away. Winds also have to be favorable.

Building funeral pyres and then gathering and identifying all of the dead bodies in and around Winterfell would take a week, if not two. Arya's head wound had healed.

So we might be looking at two months here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

It actually is common. It's another plot hole.

The showrunners keep forgetting their own show's continuity.

It isn't common: half-avuncular marriages were done one time with the Starks in the past 300 years, and it was a power grab by sons of a third wife trying to get the inheritance of their nieces. The period is engulfed in turmoil, as of the 4 brothers of the 3rd wife, 3 were Lord of WF, with one of them dying before he could inherit from the eldest brother. And NOT 1 child of those unions is recognized as a Stark heir. Not 1 descendant of that line is recognized as a Stark heir. The sole brother of those 4 whose kids got be Lord of WF was the one who was married to a Karstark (not Stark anymore, too long ago and too far removed to be considered by Robb for his will). Beyond that you have only 1 first cousin marriage. That's it.

300 years of ancestry, and you have 2 simultaneous happening avuncular marriages, and 2 cousin marriages, but 1 of those cousins is as far a cousin from the Lord of WF as a Karstark is.

The showrunners don't forget their show's continuity. They never even mentioned the avuncular marriages of a century ago. Why? Because those kids and those lords were either killed for it or taken out of the Stark inheritance line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

Well personally I think you should be furious with Dumb and Dumber and not Jon or anybody else in this series. I believe the one thing we can all agree on regardless of who’s camp we’re in is that these guys have butchered a good story with inconsistent writing. 

These characters have all been dumbed down when the show plot called for a certain result. That’s why we’re all bickering and sniping at how certain things have played out. The books would probably end up with the exact same finish or at least close enough to not make much of a difference, but the way the characters would get there would be much different and make much more sense.

The sad flip side of that coin is that GRRM will probably never finish the series so this is more than likely all we’ll get: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/13/idiocy-on-the-internet/

I’m in agreement with you on the rest but not your first point. We are talking about Jon in the show, this ending no matter how rushed simplistic and unearned is the only ending we are likely ever getting and so yes, I AM furious with Jon. He enabled her and followed her. He was weak willed, spineless & useless. I’ll judge him on what we’ve seen, regardless of D&D being idiots. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×