How will they react to what happened?

[Kajjo]

18 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Since this story is ultimately about Jon, Daenerys, and the games, wars and intrigues between them, there is nothing bittersweet about this ending. Only tragedy.

Well, have you ever considered that the story might not be "ultimately" about Jon and Daenerys, but about how greed for power brings misery to common people? About the horrors of people when the upper class gets fighting?

Game of Thrones dedicated one of the most important episodes not to our heroes but to the suffering of common people, to the horrors of war. I feel this to be very touching, very emotional, very sensible and a great deed to do. 

This is much deeper than just Jon or Daenerys.

[Nightwish]

29 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, have you ever considered that the story might not be "ultimately" about Jon and Daenerys, but about how greed for power brings misery to common people? About the horrors of people when the upper class gets fighting?

Game of Thrones dedicated one of the most important episodes not to our heroes but to the suffering of common people, to the horrors of war. I feel this to be very touching, very emotional, very sensible and a great deed to do. 

This is much deeper than just Jon or Daenerys.

People don't relate though with the anonymous crowd but with characters whose arcs have followed.

So if not all but most of the characters get killed one way or another in the Game of Throne for the writer to show how Greed For Powers corrupts for the 19th time (are we stupid and didn't get this with Stannis, Cersei, Robert, Joffrey, Theon, ect?) how is this going to be bittersweet? 

People will bash the show runners and probably the writer for leading his characters after so many chapters and pages into doom, running us circles. 

If all the heroes in Lord of the Rings had been killed to save the Middle Earth and say just Frodo had survived apparently this wouldn't have been called bittersweet. And Frodo is not even dead in Tolkien. If that was what Martin meant with "bittersweet" he must have confused something.

[Cas Stark]

39 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, have you ever considered that the story might not be "ultimately" about Jon and Daenerys, but about how greed for power brings misery to common people? About the horrors of people when the upper class gets fighting?

Game of Thrones dedicated one of the most important episodes not to our heroes but to the suffering of common people, to the horrors of war. I feel this to be very touching, very emotional, very sensible and a great deed to do. 

This is much deeper than just Jon or Daenerys.

I don't think that's what the story is ultimately about,  it's not about the common people, since every POV is an aristocrat.  It's just a much, much darker story than the way it has been presented by the author, the moral of the story is that character is destiny, people rarely change, and if they do, it's usually for the worse, it IS an extremely nihilistic story where while all actions have consequences, there isn't much difference in the negative consequences between the good guys and the bad guys.

[Pwyll41]

38 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, have you ever considered that the story might not be "ultimately" about Jon and Daenerys, but about how greed for power brings misery to common people? About the horrors of people when the upper class gets fighting?

Game of Thrones dedicated one of the most important episodes not to our heroes but to the suffering of common people, to the horrors of war. I feel this to be very touching, very emotional, very sensible and a great deed to do. 

This is much deeper than just Jon or Daenerys.

This is damn funny.  After the show went past the books the writing has been nearly insufferable.  Little finger's teleporter, Dany's blind dragon that gets shot out of the sky by a bolt launched from a quarter mile away.  ETC......

This is nothing but a TV show since season 4.  There is NOTHING deeper than ratings.  There are no 'lessons' to be learned here. You're taking the show and yourself waaaaay to seriously.

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

the moral of the story is that character is destiny, people rarely change, and if they do, it's usually for the worse,

While I believe the underlined statement to be true in itself, I am not so sure that this is supposed to be the moral of the story.

It's more about power. The title is "Game of Thrones", a fight for power. "Ice and Fire" is about clashing of things that just don't go well with each other. It's an epic saga of power and different interests maybe?

 

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Kajjo said:

While I believe the underlined statement to be true in itself, I am not so sure that this is supposed to be the moral of the story.

It's more about power. The title is "Game of Thrones", a fight for power. "Ice and Fire" is about clashing of things that just don't go well with each other. It's an epic saga of power and different interests maybe?

 

The show did a terrible job with ice and fire, they ruined that thematic element when they decided to rob Jon and Dany of the NK kill and give it to Arya for surprise.  I mean, you can boil the moral down to that people suck, life sucks, terrible things happen which you might live through and if you do you will be a worse, more broken person than before. 

[Kajjo]

3 minutes ago, Pwyll41 said:

After the show went past the books the writing has been nearly insufferable. 

For you, not for me. It's too  much moaning. The general outline of the story is still fine.

3 minutes ago, Pwyll41 said:

Little finger's teleporter

What exactly do you mean? (Anyway, yes, there have been time line issues, particularly annoying ones for the wight excursion.)

4 minutes ago, Pwyll41 said:

Dany's blind dragon that gets shot out of the sky

A dragon without a ride does probably not care for bolt and does not really recognise such a completely new, unnatural form of attack? Ever thought about that? He was also severely wounded.

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

The show did a terrible job with ice and fire, they ruined that thematic element when they decided to rob Jon and Dany of the NK kill

See the Bran thread and my reply there.  Just don't overrate the Bran thread. The NK was not the "end boss".

[The Red Waste]

Gendry could be an interesting wildcard. He got a big reward and title but he got them from Daenerys so he can't really press his claim without supporting her. Cant see him doing that but she is likely to put pressure on him and the poor lad doesn't  have the political skills to deal with that. Davos would probably back him up as the only viable candidate to represent The Stormlands for The Good Guys but that might not be enough, Gendry would be hard pressed to find Storms End on a map and would be treated with suspicion by the locals. He kinda won the lottery but he's losing the ticket. 

The fact that there's so little time left helps him because over time he could be turned into a political puppet. But he's young and naive, he has just been dumped and I wonder if he will do something rash.

[Nightwish]

14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The show did a terrible job with ice and fire, they ruined that thematic element when they decided to rob Jon and Dany of the NK kill and give it to Arya for surprise.  I mean, you can boil the moral down to that people suck, life sucks, terrible things happen which you might live through and if you do you will be a worse, more broken person than before. 

Yes, trust nobody, never have ambitions, your mother will betray you, your brother, your sister, your aunt, and don't forget never mess with power because sooner or later you will be found dead, murdered, tortured, kidnapped or you will need to press the self-destruction bottom. Also don't fall in love, its doomed either way to kill each other. Stay in doors, Hear nobody, believe nobody, don't have pets, friends, relatives! DESTRUCTION!!!! 

 

[Ice Queen]

2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

No, it's not. To the contrary.

It is much more convincing and satisfying that Daenerys is immune to too hot water, fire-heated stones and THEN survives the pyre than just out of nothing letting her survive fire.  Surviving the second fire when she burns down the Dosh Khaleen makes a lot of sense then, too.

The show did this BETTER then the book. Because back then they cared for good story and for "showing, not telling".

The first seasons were extraordinarily well done.

I disagree. It would be the height of hubris, irony and tragedy for her to believe she is immune to fire ("He wasn't a true dragon or he wasn't have died"), and then be burned to death by one of her dragons. 

Has she never heard of Summerhall?

[Ice Queen]

1 hour ago, The Red Waste said:

Gendry could be an interesting wildcard. He got a big reward and title but he got them from Daenerys so he can't really press his claim without supporting her. Cant see him doing that but she is likely to put pressure on him and the poor lad doesn't  have the political skills to deal with that. Davos would probably back him up as the only viable candidate to represent The Stormlands for The Good Guys but that might not be enough, Gendry would be hard pressed to find Storms End on a map and would be treated with suspicion by the locals. He kinda won the lottery but he's losing the ticket. 

The fact that there's so little time left helps him because over time he could be turned into a political puppet. But he's young and naive, he has just been dumped and I wonder if he will do something rash.

The Baratheons are descended from a Targaryen princess. That's how Robert was able to claim the throne. When Robert asks Ned why he didn't take it, Ned says, "You had the better claim." And he was right. 

[House Rootbreaker]

4 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Well, have you ever considered that the story might not be "ultimately" about Jon and Daenerys, but about how greed for power brings misery to common people? About the horrors of people when the upper class gets fighting?

Game of Thrones dedicated one of the most important episodes not to our heroes but to the suffering of common people, to the horrors of war. I feel this to be very touching, very emotional, very sensible and a great deed to do. 

This is much deeper than just Jon or Daenerys.

I think the story is about that to a point, but as far as episode 5 is concerned, I believe they showed the suffering on the ground in KL to horrify Dany's actions.  In the commentary, D&D actually state they had Arya down there for the sole purpose of giving you someone to care about instead of unknown extras, to deepen the impact and suspense.  But they showed all of that, in my opinion, to gut you about Dany turning into the Mad Queen, not to empathize with the suffering of common folk.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Whatever happens I hope Daenarys is pregs. 

If killing Daeny is an easy decision, it will make my disappointment with the series even worse. 

 

[The Red Waste]

I can't see a pregnancy drama at this stage, it would still open up a whole other can of paternity worms. I mean how long is it since she left Merreen? 

[MinscS2]

12 minutes ago, The Red Waste said:

I can't see a pregnancy drama at this stage, it would still open up a whole other can of paternity worms. I mean how long is it since she left Merreen? 

Irrelevant if Daario was shooting blanks.

She should've been showing by now after the boatsex with Jon however, but then Cersei was seemingly pregnant way before that happened, and she was barely showing as of the latest episode anyway. (Was she showing actually? I don't quite remember.)

Time flows differently in Westeros it seems.

[LucyMormont]

5 hours ago, Nightwish said:

People don't relate though with the anonymous crowd but with characters whose arcs have followed.

So if not all but most of the characters get killed one way or another in the Game of Throne for the writer to show how Greed For Powers corrupts for the 19th time (are we stupid and didn't get this with Stannis, Cersei, Robert, Joffrey, Theon, ect?) how is this going to be bittersweet? 

People will bash the show runners and probably the writer for leading his characters after so many chapters and pages into doom, running us circles. 

If all the heroes in Lord of the Rings had been killed to save the Middle Earth and say just Frodo had survived apparently this wouldn't have been called bittersweet. And Frodo is not even dead in Tolkien. If that was what Martin meant with "bittersweet" he must have confused something.

I wholeheartedly agree.
and more, do we need a piece of literary fiction to remind us that power corrupts, and that the weakest more innocent ones are always who suffer the most??
If I wanted to be "reminded" of that, I'd read a newspaper... or read about history... or just look around; from Syria to Venezuela, right now, we are surrounded by glaring "reminders" of that every single day. 

Apparently, GRRM doesn't know what bittersweet means.

[The Red Waste]

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Irrelevant if Daario was shooting blanks.

She should've been showing by now after the boatsex with Jon however, but then Cersei was seemingly pregnant way before that happened, and she was barely showing as of the latest episode anyway. (Was she showing actually? I don't quite remember.)

Time flows differently in Westeros it seems.

Who knows it he was shooting blanks though. There's enough there for someone to stir the shit if they were inclined. I am picturing Bran rolling up to Jon and Dany, dropping "I only have two talents in this world - war and women" and then just rollin' da fuck back outta that shit. 

[Nightwish]

1 hour ago, LucyMormont said:

I wholeheartedly agree.
and more, do we need a piece of literary fiction to remind us that power corrupts, and that the weakest more innocent ones are always who suffer the most??
If I wanted to be "reminded" of that, I'd read a newspaper... or read about history... or just look around; from Syria to Venezuela, right now, we are surrounded by glaring "reminders" of that every single day. 

Apparently, GRRM doesn't know what bittersweet means.

Thank you. Or he was interested in getting readers from the epic fantasy genre who liked Tolkien to increase the audiences of the book/show. Can't find a reasonable explanation. 

Apparently we can make a multiple choice actually laughing about it:

1. He doesn't know what bittersweet means

2. He trolls us

3. He intended to do something like that but never mind the show blew it. 

4. He had been reading another version of LOTR: everyone dies trying to get the ring and when Frodo returns home, after saving Middle Earth, the rest of the hobbits stab him in the back, so he burns the Shire, Sam kills him and hides in the woods where he lives the rest of his life. Nobody told him that this was not Tolkien.

Anderson Cooper: I mean, do you worry that some fans will have Dan and David's ending in-- in their mind's eye? Would that-- would that-- you know, would that be a disappointment to you?

George R.R. Martin: I don't think Dan and Dave's ending is gonna be that different from my ending because of the conversations we-- we did have. But they may be on certain secondary characters, there may be big differences. And, yeah, some of the people will have that. There will be a debate, I'm sure. I think a lot of people, who-- say, "Oh, Dan and Dave's ending is better than the one George gave us. It's a good thing they changed it." And there will be a lot of people who say, "No. Dan and Dave got it wrong. George's ending is better." And they will all fight on the internet. And there will be debate. And-- that's fine. I mean, it-- you know, the worst thing for any work of art, be it a movie or a book is to be ignored. (LAUGH) 

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2015/11/george-r-r-martin-my-ending-will-reflect-the-lord-of-the-rings/

We all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending. People ask me how Game of Thrones is gonna end, and I’m not gonna tell them … but I always say to expect something bittersweet in the end, like [J.R.R. Tolkien]. I think Tolkien did this brilliantly. I didn’t understand that when I was a kid — when I read Return of the King.

[Timm]

On 14 May 2019 at 7:01 PM, Kajjo said:

(...)

That's the interesting point. The conflict inside Jon's heart, Sansa or Daenerys?

Ice, or fire?