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Kajjo

How will they react to what happened?

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, I thought about that one, too.

Daenerys is very angry about Sansa and their conflict is open. Sansa won't respect her and Daenerys probably intends to "solve" the issue. 

It is a very interesting question how Jon will react to that inner conflict between "never forget to be a Stark" and his fealty to Daenerys.

However, one of the main questions in this new thread is how Jon will feel about Daenery having destroyed King's Landing and murdered so man innocent people including children. He must be appalled. Will he continue to be bound to his fealty or break up with her?

I think even Jon has his limits and she's waaaay over that line. I think he will choose what's right, and that means breaking his oath to her, and killing her. Sometimes that is the only way to stop a madman (or mad woman). Jaime did it, and so will Jon. 

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6 minutes ago, House Rootbreaker said:

I think it was shocking the Unsullied moved aside at all.  Despite Tyrion's rank, they've only ever taken orders from Dany and Grey Worm.

They would have known what happened seconds after returning to their posts. Like I said, regardless of the war there would be men assigned to guard him. More than likely men who maybe weren’t 100 percent fit for battle for whatever reason and were assigned to guard duty.

They wouldn’t just walk off and forget they’re assignment. They would’ve gone back and reported why they weren’t at their posts to someone of higher rank as well. It would’ve gone up the chain of command of the rear elements in minutes.

They were busy and maybe wouldn’t have gotten very far at the time, but the facts of what occurred would definitely be known almost instantly in a real life situation. It’s going to take a lot of suspension of disbelief to accept anything else in this case. 

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2 minutes ago, Lady Dayne said:

but I think it will happen at Dragonstone, and Dany will make Dragonstone the new seat of power.

Well, yes, King's Landing is destroyed. She probably does not want to rule from there anymore. 

Will she continue to instill fear by planning to attack further cities? Or just command oath of fealty from whoever is left of the Houses?

Of Sansa in particular? I don't think she will ever trust Sansa. Daenerys is done with trust, she will sort out all issues with violence from now on.

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3 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

I think Daenerys will want to attack Winterfell to get Sansa and that will be the last straw for Jon.

Honestly, Sansa brought it on herself. The smartest person Arya knows never stopped to consider all of the possible ways that a betrayal of Jon's trust could backfire on her?

And this isn't even the first time she has betrayed Jon's trust.

But I agree: Sansa's defiance is going to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Daenerys, who already has a good reason to dislike and distrust Sansa, is going to go off again and Jon will have to choose between which family member to support.

If Sansa becomes the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms after all of this, I am going to be furious.

7 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Oldtown, Lannisport, all the old seats of power will have to be wiped out in her mind.

I completely disagree.

It makes no sense (it makes even less sense than razing King's Landing) and it is irrelevant. D&D lack the brainpower needed to remember Oldtown, much less Lannisport which we have never seen. Plus, they seem to think that they don't have enough time when HBO was literally throwing money at them to take as much time as they needed.

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2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

They were busy and maybe wouldn’t have gotten very far at the time, but the facts of what occurred would definitely be known almost instantly in a real life situation. It’s going to take a lot of suspension of disbelief to accept anything else in this case. 

Agreed. It will be known that Tyrion set Jaime free. No other realistic scenario.

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

Of Sansa in particular? I don't think she will ever trust Sansa. Daenerys is done with trust, she will sort out all issues with violence from now on.

Can you blame her?

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4 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

I think even Jon has his limits and she's waaaay over that line. I think he will choose what's right, and that means breaking his oath to her, and killing her. Sometimes that is the only way to stop a madman (or mad woman). Jaime did it, and so will Jon. 

That's the problem.

Daenerys has not shown any sign of true mental illness.

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1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Sansa brought it on herself.

Of course she did -- and she can probably live with it. The question is more what Jon will doo about it. Split up with Sansa because of breaking her oath? Breaking his own oath to Daenerys because of her freaking out? 

1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Can you blame her?

Of course not. Daenerys was right to mistrust her. Daenerys and Sansa won't ever be on the same side. Not back in Winterfell and certainly not after what happened in E5. 

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Sansa's defiance is going to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Daenerys, who already has a good reason to dislike and distrust Sansa, is going to go off again and Jon will have to choose between which family member to support.

That's the interesting point. The conflict inside Jon's heart, Sansa or Daenerys?

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1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys has not shown any sign of true mental illness.

PLEASE -- this new thread is definitely NOT about Daenerys mental state. NOT AT ALL. 

PLEASE focus on the title questions in #1. Thank you!

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, yes, King's Landing is destroyed. She probably does not want to rule from there anymore. 

Will she continue to instill fear by planning to attack further cities? Or just command oath of fealty from whoever is left of the Houses?

Of Sansa in particular? I don't think she will ever trust Sansa. Daenerys is done with trust, she will sort out all issues with violence from now on.

The North has sworn never to kneel again. I think they would rebel under Sansa, and that's another reason why Dany will want to take her out. 

Edited by Ice Queen

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6 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

why Dany will want to take her out. 

And Jon will tolerate this?

Jon will just join her again and talk normally with her? Really? 

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Just now, Kajjo said:

And Jon will tolerate this?

Jon will just join her again and talk normally with her? Really? 

No, I think he will kill her. It will be the only way to stop her.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

No, I think he will kill her. It will be the only way to stop her.

It's my guess, too, but the situation is very open and complex.

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4 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

No, I think he will kill her. It will be the only way to stop her.

What an awful ending that will be to the story.  I won't be reading the rest of the books even if they come out.  Sad.

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We were supposed to get a bittersweet ending.

Since this story is ultimately about Jon, Daenerys, and the games, wars and intrigues between them, there is nothing bittersweet about this ending. Only tragedy.

And worse of all, they aren't even letting Dany be a tragic hero like Macbeth or Othello.

This is truly disappointing.

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

How will our protagonists react to what happened?

(1) Jon/Sansa -- Will he be very pissed that she broke her oath and put him in this position? Sansa more or less caused all the trouble with her betrayal. Daenerys possible had not snapped at exactly this point without the betrayal. Will Jon forgive her? Be extremely angry with her and split allegiance?

(2) Jon/Daenerys -- Will Daenerys simply return to Dragonstone and talk normally to all of them? Will Jon follow to Dragonstone or simply split up and go his own way?

(3) Will Tyrion dare to go back or flee after freeing Jaime and failing this last time. He knows he has no more forgiveness to expect from Daenerys now.

(4) I expect Grey Worm to continue to be on Daenerys' side.

 

 

1) Jon/Sansa -- Probably no interaction since she is in Winterfell. 

(2) Jon/Daenerys -- She will be on Kings Landing from now on. I don't know. Is their a relationship between them anymore? He failed her more than twice. So why bother with him? 

(3) Tyrion will probably take the blame for Jamie. He will confess, I believe, as he is the number one suspect for releasing him. Dany should kill him. I believe she had enough of him and his nonsense. 

(4) Me too. 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

It's my guess, too, but the situation is very open and complex.

I believe the spoilers, they all turned to be true so far. 

Edited by Nightwish

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Excellent thread.

Jon is not pissed off at Sansa or rather he would not be if there was any coherence in the writing. I don't think even D&D can get this wrong and Jon will be kissing Sansa's toes the first chance he gets. It will be off screen though since the show has just ran out of time.

An excellent question about how Jon and Dany move on from now. If there was more time, I think Jon just taking off with the Northmen without another word would be a very sound option. Since the showrunners have ruined the possibility, they will have to talk about it if they get a chance. I don't think there can be reconciliation. Dany went far too far across the line and Jon is too honourable to forget and forgive the slaughter she unleashed. That would not mean they have to clash necessarily, but they are over as a couple and even as a union of close friends. He might still remain her subject, although I don't think that is how it will play out.

What I rather think will happen is that they never get a chance to talk. Dany will go for Tyrion's head right after all the dramatic scenes of her victory. People dying, unsullied marching and dothraki screaming and all that stuff. I think therefore Jon will have to make his move before talking to Dany at least in private. Maybe that is too much to ask because that would be more in line with classic GOT and the books where things just don't work out at times, and the characters have to take decisive and far reaching action in terrible conditions but, I am hoping that Jon will have to make up his mind on his own for once. And he can't just sulk and wait in the corner instead wringing his hands until something takes place and there is no longer a decision to make.

I agree that Dany might very well decide beeline from Red Keep to Winterfell. I think it would be good writing, too. That is what she would do, now that she has embraced Fire and Blood. I do not think she will live long enough to actually go through it.

I think this could play out for example in a way that Dany gets Tyrion and while sentencing Tyrion to death also mentions his wife up in the North who will be next. Jon will be there but not soon enough to have a word with Dany. Jon will have to choose right there and then. For Arya in the shadows it's a no brainer so, she will flip once Dany threatens Sansa aaaand - off we go.

Grey Worm will be in Dany's corner and Jon - who has finally understood that he is dummy - stands in the other corner with Arya. Maybe a dothraki here and northman there. Because plot reasons Drogon will not be around because - Drogon > all. Some people die, Dany is included in the casualties. I have about 0% hit rate so far this season, but brave as ever: I have a feeling that it is the end of Arya as well.

There is only a little time left. We need to get a bit of a powerwalk from Dany in her new lovely and lively capitol of her Kingdoms, perhaps a speech, too. Then setup for the reckoning I meantioned above. The fight sequence will take a while because of its importance and the possibilities of visually amazing fight scene (I lament the lost opportunity that was the Cleganebowl) and then its result whatever it may. Then we still need time for the real aftermath after Jon / Dany / both are dead.

If Jon lives, he takes the throne out of duty and guilt to have helped Dany. He could hand it down to Sansa too, to be honest, but I rather think that Jon just makes her Queen of the independent North. If Tyrion and Davos live, they are the start of his small council.

Sun sets and a new NK rises somewhere up the Land of Always Winter. The END.

I thought Dany might go mad, obviously since I read the books several times over before the show. I never ever for once seriously thought that she would go mad enough to be the Final Boss Fight.

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

How will our protagonists react to what happened?

(1) Jon/Sansa -- Will he be very pissed that she broke her oath and put him in this position? Sansa more or less caused all the trouble with her betrayal. Daenerys possible had not snapped at exactly this point without the betrayal. Will Jon forgive her? Be extremely angry with her and split allegiance?

Sansa did not 'cause all the trouble with her betrayal.' Dany is fully responsible for what she did in King's landing. It sounds like abuser logic- 'look what you made me do.' And if she betrayed Jon's trust, he betrayed Dany's trust first by telling his family. Seeing what Dany is capable of affirms Sansa's decision in my mind. She wants to protect Jon, and once the secret is out it is much harder for Dany to arrange for a little 'accident' once she her paranoia about Jon and his better claim grows. It is not honorable of her, but it the only tool she has to keep Jon safe. 

He will definitely be breaking with Dany. Killing her does seem out of character but I think he worked hard to save Westeros from one existential threat- he's not going to be ok with it falling to another. 

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13 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

We were supposed to get a bittersweet ending.

Since this story is ultimately about Jon, Daenerys, and the games, wars and intrigues between them, there is nothing bittersweet about this ending. Only tragedy.

And worse of all, they aren't even letting Dany be a tragic hero like Macbeth or Othello.

This is truly disappointing.

Depending on how the last episode goes, Daenerys might have accidentally broken the wheel, even if it ultimately cost her everything, including her humanity. 

But yeah, "bittersweet ending á la LotR" seems to end up being nothing more than a misdirection just like so much else on this show...

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