Time to rewatch from the beginning

[Eltharion21]

On 5/14/2019 at 7:36 PM, hallam said:

It was the exact same thing with Stannis. His first act in the book is to burn his kin alive for refusing to forsake their gods. He murders his brother with blood magic. Of course it was always going to end with Stannis murdering his only child.

Have you even read the book?

[BlackLightning]

5 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Have you even read the book?

I'm interested in seeing this answer.

Here @hallam, I'll help you out and give you a hint. Stannis appears in the very first (prologue) chapter in A Clash of Kings

Enjoy!

[hallam]

52 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Have you even read the book?

Of course. It was the book that convinced me he was a complete shit. I could see Shireen was going to end up being burned to death from the first chapter she appears in.

Stannis is not just a prick, he is self-righteous about it. Brienne was far too merciful.

[Eltharion21]

7 hours ago, hallam said:

Of course. It was the book that convinced me he was a complete shit. I could see Shireen was going to end up being burned to death from the first chapter she appears in.

Stannis is not just a prick, he is self-righteous about it. Brienne was far too merciful.

What family member does he burn because he refuses to forsake his/hers god, and how it is his first act in the books?

[hallam]

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

What family member does he burn because he refuses to forsake his/hers god, and how it is his first act in the books?

Can't remember the names or if we are even told them. But there is a plea on their behalf as extended family. That is why I said time to rewatch the show. I might re-read the books if they are ever finished. Not a priority right now.

Stannis leaves KL before Ned arrives and we only hear of him second hand in GoT. The first chapter I remember him in book 2 is the one that starts with the Maester attempting to assassinate the Red priestess and dying and ends with the idols being burned and the fake lightbringer being pulled from the flames.

It is abundantly clear from what we see of Stannis in book 2 that he is a religious maniac. Perhaps you just admire him because that is the type of person you admire.

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, hallam said:

Can't remember the names or if we are even told them. But there is a plea on their behalf as extended family. That is why I said time to rewatch the show. I might re-read the books if they are ever finished. Not a priority right now.

Stannis leaves KL before Ned arrives and we only hear of him second hand in GoT. The first chapter I remember [Stannis] in book 2 is the one that starts with the Maester attempting to assassinate the Red priestess and dying and ends with the idols being burned and the fake lightbringer being pulled from the flames.

It is abundantly clear from what we see of Stannis in book 2 that he is a religious maniac. Perhaps you just admire him because that is the type of person you admire.

 

On 5/14/2019 at 1:36 PM, hallam said:

It was the exact same thing with Stannis. His first act in the book is to burn his kin alive for refusing to forsake their gods. He murders his brother with blood magic. Of course it was always going to end with Stannis murdering his only child.

LOL

Which is it?

See this is how I know you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Here are the links to the chapters from the AWOIAF wiki LOL

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Prologue

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Chapter_10

The incident with the maester happens in the prologue. The burning of the Seven happens in chapter 10. And I'm still trying to find out when and where does Stannis burn his own kin alive for refusing to forsake their gods. The closest thing I can find is this:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Dance_with_Dragons-Chapter_9

But Alester Florent is not being burned for forsaking the faith of the Seven.

LOL

Go on. Read the wiki articles (we all know you aren't going to read the books). But yeah. Read the wiki articles so you can find out exactly what was Stannis' first act.

[Eltharion21]

3 hours ago, hallam said:

Can't remember the names or if we are even told them. But there is a plea on their behalf as extended family. That is why I said time to rewatch the show. I might re-read the books if they are ever finished. Not a priority right now.

Stannis leaves KL before Ned arrives and we only hear of him second hand in GoT. The first chapter I remember him in book 2 is the one that starts with the Maester attempting to assassinate the Red priestess and dying and ends with the idols being burned and the fake lightbringer being pulled from the flames.

It is abundantly clear from what we see of Stannis in book 2 that he is a religious maniac. Perhaps you just admire him because that is the type of person you admire.

Maybe you should reread while you are at the repetition process, because your claim is false.

[Every Last Chicken]

On 5/16/2019 at 11:34 AM, MagicPen said:

I honestly stopped reading when the OP bolded out: 'she breaks her word to a slave trader'.

Also no, there is not event decent build up in the show that points to Dany being evil or mad, they literally white washed her character for 6 season straight.

And no in the books there's no clear signs either, as it could still go either way. Dany in the books questions her decisions, that means she has rational thinking and is not an insane person. She could develop a mental disorder later on, but the things she did have good justification behind them.

Its not perfect, as she wants the damn throne, but she wants to save people as well and has successfully done it. While she is not great at governing, she is great at saving people. There is literally no justification to say that the slaves she freed were better off in chains, unless you're pro slavery.

I think it's a little harsh to tell someone that they're pro-slavery for questioning the actions of a character in a fantasy novel, no?

While what Daenerys did was admirable to us (I'm sure all of us agree that slavery is bad), the method she employed was deceitful. She essentially renegged on her deal and murdered the slave masters whom she was dealing with. And lets be honest, the unsullied were trained and brainwashed since children to be an elite fighting force; so when she tells them all they can be free, what do you think they are going to do, go find a family and settle down? Her "liberating" the unsullied was only a formality as far as i'm concerned because where else were they going to go after what they had been trained for? 

Season through season, she has to constantly remind everyone who she is and why she's so important. She adopts a plethora of fancy titles to make sure everyone knows her name. And what happens at the first moment when all those names don't matter (in Vaes Dothrak when she is recaptured), she simply kills all the Khals and butchers the customs of a people who she was just fine with a few seasons beforehand when Drogo was alive. She could have escaped with Jorah and Darrio but instead decided she needed to "teach them a lesson" because once again, she's too important to adhere to the customs of her late husband. 

In between we see her crucifying the masters of Meereen, indiscriminantly instead of investigating who actually crucified the children or bothering to learn the customs of the place she conquered. When Barristan dies she decides she's going to feed the Masters (who are not really masters anymore due to her new rule) to her dragons. 

Yes, we see her grant mercy sometimes but mercy is never granted without her reminding the person who granted that mercy. Even in episode 4 when she grants Storms End to Gendry, she has to remind him it is because "I am a merciful queen". 

It's all for show and it's essentially what politicians have been doing to people for years. If she were fair, just, and a seeker of truth then she would have stepped aside when she found out the truth about Jon. Instead she blame shifts and says that everyone else telling the truth is what got Varys killed and STILL declares the throne as hers despite her claim not being as strong. She goes as far as to try to control him and expects him to keep the biggest revelation of his life under wraps for her own selfishness. 

Daenerys has only cared about one person since the start of this story and that is Daenerys and how she will get on that throne. Anyone who gets in her way gets killed. 

 

[Daemos]

On 5/16/2019 at 3:07 PM, Timm said:

And apart from her initial approach to Euron's fleet (when she nearly fucks it all up), it is much clearer how she ovecomes the scorpions - they can't turn fast enough as she flies round them and changes direction.

Not to excuse the bad writing, but there is also the element of surprise we must consider.

The show is telling us that without the element of surprise, Dragons are fast enough to dodge anything. Rhaegal was sniped before Dany had a chance to react, but when she consciously did her dive in episode 4, they couldn't hit her because she and Drogon anticipated the attacks.

In Episode 5, Dany was the one who had the element of surprise by striking from the sun. This combined with the sheer violence and fear that quickly suffocated the people of KL, probably made the Scorpions and the people who manned them that much less effective at hitting her. 

Essentially, when Dragons are on the offensive, present and fully primed for battle, they are near invincible. 

[Hodor's Dragon]

7 minutes ago, Every Last Chicken said:

<snip>

Daenerys has only cared about one person since the start of this story and that is Daenerys and how she will get on that throne. Anyone who gets in her way gets killed. 

 

Utter hogwash. And yes, we're all quite aware of the major plot points you one-sidedly and unreflectively cited in the snipped portion.

But really, siding with the masters of the Unsullied in Astopor? Those are some seriously horrible people. No murder warrants get filled when they go down, if you ask me, especially if the upside is freeing the slaves.

[Every Last Chicken]

2 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Utter hogwash. And yes, we're all quite aware of the major plot points you one-sidedly and unreflectively cited in the snipped portion.

But really, siding with the masters of the Unsullied in Astopor? Those are some seriously horrible people. No murder warrants get filled when they go down, if you ask me, especially if the upside is freeing the slaves.

I'm not saying she didn't have an ounce of goodness to her. She obviously had moments of what seemed like genuine care for some of the people (for instance, when she locked her dragons away after Drogon burned the little girl). To me she was always teetering one way or the other, but over the last season it has gotten more apparent that her self-righeous side was coming out in full. 

And who says I'm siding with the Master's of Astopor? Of course they deserved their death. Slavery is horrible and what they did to those soldiers was also horrible. That doesn't mean Dany wasn't a liar and a hack. Just because one looks worse doesn't mean the other isn't bad. 

[KingMudd]

On 5/16/2019 at 8:34 PM, hallam said:

I pretty much turn off when anyone who hasn't written the most successful TV series in history accuses the people who did of 'bad writing'.

So you think someone can't offer a critique of something unless they have achieved the same or better? That's complete bullshit. I can see bad writing in TV shows as can plenty of others, you don't need to be a good writer to know when something is bad. Going by your logic you can't criticize anything.

 

On 5/16/2019 at 8:34 PM, hallam said:

The fact that you can't figure out why Danny snapped doesn't mean that it is bad writing. It just means that the work is more complicated than you seem able to cope with. The executions of the Tarlys and Varys showed us what she is.

Ahh right you're just more intelligent than the average viewer.

[hallam]

5 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Go on. Read the wiki articles (we all know you aren't going to read the books). But yeah. Read the wiki articles so you can find out exactly what was Stannis' first act.

You are quoting from the wiki articles yourself.

The reason I am pretty sure that there were people burned with the idols was that Shireen hadn't appeared in the show at the time but I was immediately struck by the idea that she was going to end up on a bonfire.

Now I might have concluded that from the idols alone but I am pretty sure there is an offhand comment about burning the people who won't convert after Stannis shows them fake-lightbringer.

But regardless, you are still trying to argue that St Stannis would not burn Shireen in the books despite the fact that we are told this is exactly what GRRM told D&D would happen to her.

[hallam]

16 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Utter hogwash. And yes, we're all quite aware of the major plot points you one-sidedly and unreflectively cited in the snipped portion.

But really, siding with the masters of the Unsullied in Astopor? Those are some seriously horrible people. No murder warrants get filled when they go down, if you ask me, especially if the upside is freeing the slaves.

GRRM is playing a crafty game here. Of course we are not supposed to have any sympathy for the slavemasters of Astopor. They are worse than murderers. Every unsullied means a puppy and a baby and another trainee unsullied died. 

But righteous anger at the slavemasters should not have blinded people to the fact that Danny makes an agreement and then murders them rather than keep it. The murder is entirely gratuitous.

Dannerys is Richard Nixon and she has just napalmed Kings Landing. If you were paying attention, the signs were always there that Danny isn't the sort of person who keeps her word and murders people who get in their way. The fact that we didn't have much sympathy for the people she murdered up to now doesn't change the fact that they were murdered.

[Hodor's Dragon]

7 minutes ago, hallam said:

GRRM is playing a crafty game here. Of course we are not supposed to have any sympathy for the slavemasters of Astopor. They are worse than murderers. Every unsullied means a puppy and a baby and another trainee unsullied died. 

But righteous anger at the slavemasters should not have blinded people to the fact that Danny makes an agreement and then murders them rather than keep it. The murder is entirely gratuitous.

Dannerys is Richard Nixon and she has just napalmed Kings Landing. If you were paying attention, the signs were always there that Danny isn't the sort of person who keeps her word and murders people who get in their way. The fact that we didn't have much sympathy for the people she murdered up to now doesn't change the fact that they were murdered.

So "lying" is a worse sin than allowing thousands of years of the cruelest sort of slavery, with apparently no other chance to ever break the cycle, to continue? Not with you there on that one.

Also ... I get tired if this "If you were paying attention" shit. I guarantee you, precious damned few have paid more attention than me, and it's not like I'm too stupid to comprehend what I'm following, either.

[hallam]

9 minutes ago, KingMudd said:

So you think someone can't offer a critique of something unless they have achieved the same or better? That's complete bullshit. I can see bad writing in TV shows as can plenty of others, you don't need to be a good writer to know when something is bad. Going by your logic you can't criticize anything.

 

Ahh right you're just more intelligent than the average viewer.

If people are going to call other people 'stupid', it seems reasonable to point out that the problem might be with their own cognitive abilities.

Offering a critique is one thing, saying that the producers are imbeciles is another.

[hallam]

2 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

So "lying" is a worse sin than allowing thousands of years of the cruelest sort of slavery, with apparently no other chance to ever break the cycle, to continue? Not with you there on that one.

Also ... I get tired if this "If you were paying attention" shit. I guarantee you, precious damned few have paid more attention than me, and it's not like I'm too stupid to comprehend what I'm following, either.

Lying isn't worse but the lying demonstrates Danny's character.

If the best that can be said of Danny is she is somewhat better than a slaver, that isn't saying a lot for her.

And is she really the great liberator she claims? She may have 'freed' her slaves but she goes on to lead most of them to their deaths in her bid to conquer Westeros because her family conquered there 300 years ago and she feels entitled.

GRRM deliberately sets this up so that we accept Danny performing an act which should lead us to have serious concerns for her suitability as a ruler. 

[hallam]

53 minutes ago, Daemos said:

Not to excuse the bad writing, but there is also the element of surprise we must consider.

The show is telling us that without the element of surprise, Dragons are fast enough to dodge anything. Rhaegal was sniped before Dany had a chance to react, but when she consciously did her dive in episode 4, they couldn't hit her because she and Drogon anticipated the attacks.

In Episode 5, Dany was the one who had the element of surprise by striking from the sun. This combined with the sheer violence and fear that quickly suffocated the people of KL, probably made the Scorpions and the people who manned them that much less effective at hitting her. 

Essentially, when Dragons are on the offensive, present and fully primed for battle, they are near invincible. 

And with a rider.

If Drogon is taken out, it is likely because he doesn't have a rider at the time.

[Dragons Are Real]

6 minutes ago, hallam said:

If people are going to call other people 'stupid', it seems reasonable to point out that the problem might be with their own cognitive abilities.

Offering a critique is one thing, saying that the producers are imbeciles is another.

Except in the case where it's pretty well a  proven fact the producers are, in fact, horribly inept at the very core of their jobs, and have absolutely destroyed the characters and plot they've been developing for all these years in a near contemptuous way.

So the choice is either believe they are imbeciles, or they're so angry with the property that they want to destroy it.  And occam's razor points towards the former.

[hallam]

41 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

Except in the case where it's pretty well a  proven fact the producers are, in fact, horribly inept at the very core of their jobs, and have absolutely destroyed the characters and plot they've been developing for all these years in a near contemptuous way.

So the choice is either believe they are imbeciles, or they're so angry with the property that they want to destroy it.  And occam's razor points towards the former.

They have managed to deliver the biggest and most successful TV serial in history. I see absolutely no reason to believe that any of the plot points people keep complaining about are anything other than what GRRM intended.

In fact the one area where I suspect the show has diverged markedly from the books is that I suspect GRRM is leading folk up the garden path with R+L=J in certain respects as well and D&D just decided to cut to the chase because they don't think the prophecies and magic work as well on the screen. Of course Robert's rebellion was fought on a lie but I suspect it was a much more convoluted lie.

Given that the books are way too long and indulgent, many people consider the show to be the strong editor that GRRM never had. The fake Arya plot, the fake Aegon plot, the fake Lightbringer,... The show does a better job of pacing and actually getting on with the story. D&D were working under the constraint that the lead characters were not prepared to carry on for any longer than they have.