Pandean Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, teej6 said: Not happening in the books IMO. D&D’s ridiculous Sansa storyline was appeasement for destroying Dany’s female leader narrative. And do you really think GRRM will make a Stark (the last surviving son of Ned) king of Westeros and then have an independent North with Sansa as ruler? Why would the Northmen want independence from a kingdom that is ruled by a Stark and the actual heir to the North? Baffling to say the least. Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 I wonder how her plans to Brexit the North will go. Because as a American Southerner, nationalist exit strategies based on xenophobia rarely are justified or go well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 I've always pictured the series ending with Sansa actually becoming the Lady Regent of the Seven Kingdoms and Bran fully submerging himself into his Three-Eyed Raven role stuck in the Winterfell heart tree and watching everything but participating in nothing. Not this. This was awful. Sansa gets to become Queen for no other reason than she wants to be Queen and NoRTheRn InDePenDeNcE! hurr durr!!!. But Daenerys who wanted to be Queen to break the wheel, change the world for the better and give birth to something new...dies and then her corpse is escorted offscreen. smh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Just now, C.T. Phipps said: I wonder how her plans to Brexit the North will go. Because as a American Southerner, nationalist exit strategies based on xenophobia rarely are justified or go well. Yeah, this isn't a comfortable message and it's a reversal of the nationalism/xenophobia is bad message from earlier this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 23 minutes ago, Lollygag said: Yeah, this isn't a comfortable message and it's a reversal of the nationalism/xenophobia is bad message from earlier this season. "What have the Southerners ever done for us!?" "Well, Stannis saved us from the Wildlings. The Tullys fought with us against King Joffrey. The Dothraki and Unsullied saved us from the White Walkers. Oh and the Vale Knights are why you're Queen." "Aside from that!" "Brought...peace?" "SHUT UP!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Pandean said: When I saw him I did a bit of a double take and then was slightly disturbed with how decent he looked. Yes, he has grown up to be very, very attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandean Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said: Yes, he has grown up to be very, very attractive. He's got probably the best glow up in the series! Probably all that milk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Just now, C.T. Phipps said: "What have the Southerners ever done for us!?" "Well, Stannis saved us from the Wildlings. The Tullys fought with us against King Joffrey. The Dothraki and Unsullied saved us from the White Walkers. Oh and the Vale Knights are why you're Queen." "Aside from that!" "Brought...peace?" "SHUT UP!" Now that I think on it, they pushed the whole it all comes full circle thing so hard that it didn't take into account the progression of the story or the characters. I think what they're were going for was Ned and Robb went South when they should have stayed North to back the NW against the Others. So we now have a situation where Sansa won't be drawn South and Jon is in the NW again. But if the Others are gone, what's the point of any of that? And I get not wanting to get drawn into Southern wars, but with 3ER and the new Counsel, that should really get better. It only makes sense if the Others are still out there and that would create a reason for the North to be independent if they were kind of a new extension of the NW for the kingdom or something. So....?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 20, 2019 Author Share Posted May 20, 2019 I can't to reply to all at once, so a general reply... 1. The pack is not broken. This family unit just progressed. I suppose that we all have siblings who got married, who moved, whose jobs taken them to another city, another country. That is like saying that all those families are broken. Sansa is in no greater loss than Arya or Jon. The entire Stark pack moved. That was to be expected. 2. Yes, Northern independence could be a problem down the road. Or it could not be. There are some independent kingdoms existing next to each other. The world is comprised of countries. Are we to believe that everyone everywhere is plotting against the neighbors? Of course not. 3. Was it done in such way that it raises more questions? Yes, It is recurring theme of DnD's writing. Northern Independence is like one of those things that we simply don't understand how or why we got there. They failed on all levels to explain it. Just like they failed on all levels to explain a lot of things. That said... The Elizabeth I-theme was always strong when it came to Sansa. In books that is. IDK whether she will be a ruler at the end, but the story has always been about gaining agency. Here, it was done in worst possible manner, but still... I am happy that they at least respected that one bit of book Sansa. As little as it is. I didn't hope for more. I simply couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 15 minutes ago, Lollygag said: Now that I think on it, they pushed the whole it all comes full circle thing so hard that it didn't take into account the progression of the story or the characters. I think what they're were going for was Ned and Robb went South when they should have stayed North to back the NW against the Others. So we now have a situation where Sansa won't be drawn South and Jon is in the NW again. But if the Others are gone, what's the point of any of that? And I get not wanting to get drawn into Southern wars, but with 3ER and the new Counsel, that should really get better. It only makes sense if the Others are still out there and that would create a reason for the North to be independent if they were kind of a new extension of the NW for the kingdom or something. So....?????? None of it makes any sense. The best part of this episode was Sweetrobin somehow managing to look like a gotdam snack while crossing his legs. It'd be a massive turn off with any other man but Lord Arryn did the impossible. I think we should call him the Unsexy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gupwalla Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 In my mind, Sansa is a nod to the story's acknowledged debt to the Wars of the Roses as source material for the early Stark v. Lannister storyline. That war ended with the rise of the Tudor dynasty, so a red-headed queen regnant is a tribute to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 44 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: "What have the Southerners ever done for us!?" "Well, Stannis saved us from the Wildlings. The Tullys fought with us against King Joffrey. The Dothraki and Unsullied saved us from the White Walkers. Oh and the Vale Knights are why you're Queen." "Aside from that!" "Brought...peace?" "SHUT UP!" "Wasn't your mother from the sou-" "QWEeN iN Da NoRf!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 38 minutes ago, Lollygag said: Now that I think on it, they pushed the whole it all comes full circle thing so hard that it didn't take into account the progression of the story or the characters. I think what they're were going for was Ned and Robb went South when they should have stayed North to back the NW against the Others. So we now have a situation where Sansa won't be drawn South and Jon is in the NW again. But if the Others are gone, what's the point of any of that? And I get not wanting to get drawn into Southern wars, but with 3ER and the new Counsel, that should really get better. It only makes sense if the Others are still out there and that would create a reason for the North to be independent if they were kind of a new extension of the NW for the kingdom or something. So....?????? It's like Skyrim (and the last Game of Thrones theme with the barbarian choir was totally Skyrim). You have her as the Nords for the Nords but the fact is that the only way to beat the Big Supernatural Threat is with an alliance of other races! And there's no threat anyway! And they won because of the alliance of other peoples! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudgiebudgie Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said: I've always pictured the series ending with Sansa actually becoming the Lady Regent of the Seven Kingdoms and Bran fully submerging himself into his Three-Eyed Raven role stuck in the Winterfell heart tree and watching everything but participating in nothing. Not this. This was awful. Sansa gets to become Queen for no other reason than she wants to be Queen and NoRTheRn InDePenDeNcE! hurr durr!!!. But Daenerys who wanted to be Queen to break the wheel, change the world for the better and give birth to something new...dies and then her corpse is escorted offscreen. smh The reason Dany dies is because despite her desire to break the wheel, that is the opposite of what she was going to end up doing. Dany's psychic wounds had been too deep and never healed, and she was going to pass them on, plain as day. Sansa's wounds are also terribly deep, but unlike Dany she is purposely "withdrawing" from the world to prevent spreading them further, symbolised in withdrawing the North. Sansa will clearly never have children (show indicates she is sexually mutilated like Theon), she simply wants to protect all that's left of her and the North. I've written a series of posts pointing out how every character's story and ending play into the theme of the cycle of abuse. I haven't written Sansa's, but the main arc of her story is painted fairly clearly in Sandor's. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/154628-asoiafs-overall-theme-the-protection-of-children-starting-with-sandors-arc-and-his-threefold-death-i-will-show-it-to-you/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha 2014 Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 When did the show indicate that Sansa is definitely incapable of having children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark_in_Winterfell Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 On 5/14/2019 at 8:59 PM, Risto said: It all began in 2013. I watched an episode before the wedding of Tyrion and Sansa and suddenly, it occurred to me: "They will make it about HIM". So, we started discussing Sansa regularly and we all fought many times. We had every debate possible and save that one particular episode, this thread marked each of the 38 episodes Sansa appeared in. Anyone who has discussed Sansa will tell you that few characters in ASOIAF and fantasy as polarizing as she was is. For this watch may be ended this Sunday night, but for us, it will continue on ASOIAF threads where we will return to everything we have grown to love (and for some of you, hate) about this character. This thread is opened earlier for predictions sake. The endgame is upon us and we'll see what will happen to Lady of Winterfell. So, for the last time, welcome to Discussing Sansa thread. For, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times... The only reason why Sansa is polarizing is because she weilds power outside of the tropes assigned to women in fantasy. Sansa wields power like a sane, rational man not a crazy woman or evil woman or a witch. People are so accustomed to negative stereotypes of women in fantasy that their brain circuits overload and fry when face with a woman in power that doesn't fit crazy, evil or magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterwell Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 29 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said: When did the show indicate that Sansa is definitely incapable of having children? She still can. She tells Littlefinger in season 6 that as long as she had her face and could give Ramsey an heir he did what he liked with the rest of her. So producing an heir shouldn’t be a problem. And all this nonsense about her losing her name through marriage is just that nonsense. There would be plenty of houses that would offer a son to take the Stark name just to see their blood on the Northern throne. Besides who says she has to marry to produce an heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanadis Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 48 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said: The only reason why Sansa is polarizing is because she weilds power outside of the tropes assigned to women in fantasy. Sansa wields power like a sane, rational man not a crazy woman or evil woman or a witch. People are so accustomed to negative stereotypes of women in fantasy that their brain circuits overload and fry when face with a woman in power that doesn't fit crazy, evil or magic. I have a feeling that what irks people is her being a victim for far too long, and when she finally stops being a victim, she has a persistent 'told you so'-attitude. Her story just wasn't done well. Now it may well be that if her story was done well, there'd still be Sansa haters, but as it is I'm willing to cut them some slack. I love Sansa, and I was happy to see her become Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripusortrapus Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Very satisfied with Sansa's ending. She's always been my favorite character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 6 hours ago, pudgiebudgie said: The reason Dany dies is because despite her desire to break the wheel, that is the opposite of what she was going to end up doing. Dany's psychic wounds had been too deep and never healed, and she was going to pass them on, plain as day. Sansa's wounds are also terribly deep, but unlike Dany she is purposely "withdrawing" from the world to prevent spreading them further, symbolised in withdrawing the North. Sansa will clearly never have children (show indicates she is sexually mutilated like Theon), she simply wants to protect all that's left of her and the North. I've written a series of posts pointing out how every character's story and ending play into the theme of the cycle of abuse. I haven't written Sansa's, but the main arc of her story is painted fairly clearly in Sandor's. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/154628-asoiafs-overall-theme-the-protection-of-children-starting-with-sandors-arc-and-his-threefold-death-i-will-show-it-to-you/ LOL WHAT?! How can becoming a ruling queen be considered withdrawing? Or even exploring the world or being exiled to the lands of always winter? Sexually mutilated?! Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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