Zorral Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Ser Lepus said: So what? If the president of France has more charisma than the president of Italy, the president of France becomes able to rule Italy? Sansa has not authority over Edmure, period. And people should have objected over her disregard of Jon's and Bran's authority and rights... So sorry intentional historical obtuseness hasn't worked out for you, i.e. medieval vs 21st C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Edmure was putting himself forward as a candidate for Protector of the Realm yet where was he with the Others? Surely Jon and Sansa asked for his help... Sansa is speaking with moral authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 23 minutes ago, Lollygag said: Edmure was putting himself forward as a candidate for Protector of the Realm yet where was he with the Others? Surely Jon and Sansa asked for his help... Sansa is speaking with moral authority. Edmure was captured by the Lannisters. I don't know what Cersei did with him, or how he did survive the destruction of the Red Keep, but he wasn't free during the battle against the Others and he didn't have any troops to send... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giskard Reventlov Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Well, important thing about Sansa the Queen is that after her, the North won't be ruled by Starks anymore. Her children won't be Starks but will bear a name of her husband. Because, of course, there are no male Starks, so in the world of Westeros it means that your House is extinct. So it would be interesting to see how that plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanadis Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Sansa probably knew it was the last episode of the whole show and that they didn't have time for her uncle's speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 6 minutes ago, Giskard Reventlov said: Well, important thing about Sansa the Queen is that after her, the North won't be ruled by Starks anymore. Her children won't be Starks but will bear a name of her husband. Because, of course, there are no male Starks, so in the world of Westeros it means that your House is extinct. So it would be interesting to see how that plays out. Actually, no.... Sansa's kids can change their surname to Stark... it has happened before.... As a matter of fact, the current Lannisters are a junior branch of House Lydden, not real Lannisters... They are descended from the knight Ser Joffrey Lydden, who married a Lannister heiress and took her surname... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giskard Reventlov Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Ser Lepus said: Actually, no.... Sansa's kids can change their surname to Stark... it has happened before.... As a matter of fact the current Lannisters are a junior branch of House Lydden, not real Lannisters... They are descended from the knight Ser Joffrey Lydden, who married a Lannister heiress and took her surname... True, but that was 1000 years ago and its not a very common thing in Westeros. Common thing is that when male heirs die out so does the House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Giskard Reventlov said: True, but that was 1000 years ago and its not a very common thing in Westeros. Common thing is that when male heirs die out so does the House. She is queen now, and she really needs the Stark surname in order to reinforce her kids' authority, so she will probably do it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said: Edmure was captured by the Lannisters. I don't know what did Cersei did with him, or how he did survive the destruction of the Red Keep, but he wasn't free during the battle against the Others and he didn't have any troops to send... Nope. https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Edmure_Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Just now, Giskard Reventlov said: True, but that was 1000 years ago and its not a very common thing in Westeros. Common thing is that when male heirs die out so does the House. Houses don't last thousands and thousands of years through all of that war without keeping the name through the female line. Cat was going to keep the Tully name as heir until Edmure came along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 On 5/15/2019 at 9:45 AM, Targaryen Peas said: If Jon's real identity didn't leak. Dany would have probably kept it safe. The reality of the people knowing that her claim for the throne wasn't solid anymore, literally destroyed her. The snitch is: Sansa. Thus, Sansa destroyed Dany's sanity. QED. I think D&D handled this really badly, or they white washed her after such negative criticism in her Jeyne Poole plot. But I think Sansa will be way more machiavellian in the books and she'll play the game of thrones to win the Northern Crown. It won't just be handed to her because she says the Northern Lords won't accept it. And I think part of the chaos she'll sew will be to plant those divisive seeds between Jon and Dany, and to feed Dany's paranoia. Also I think she won't be at all apologetic about sending Jon to the Wall. I think she'll ensure he is out of the way. Arya learned to become a FM. Bran the Greenseer. Sansa the best GOT player left in the kingdom. That's the training they were meant to receive in their five year gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons 7th Eye Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 41 minutes ago, Ser Davos' Finger Nubs said: 1. He is still her uncle and that was rude IMO and 2. Edmure was Lord of Riverrun no? So his liege lord wouldn't be someone from Winterfell would it? Maybe I am misunderstanding..The writing was just dreadful to be honest. I thought Jon or at least Bran (if he is willing and able to be King he should be able to LoW) was Lord of Winterfell at that time anytime. In regards to military experience, it is not an absolutely necessity for a Queen to have but what qualifications does Sansa have to be QotN? Being held hostage? Backstabbing her family? Seems like she just got that position because of her last name. And I just wish the treason was consistent - Varys gets burned for treason, Tyrion gets named Hand for treason, Jon gets sent to the wall for treason, Sansa gets to be Queen for treason... zero logic anywhere. 1. Not very rude at all. Edmure was making a fool of himself, by himself. 2. Riverrun swore for Starks. That's why Edmure and Blackfish etc. were with Robb. Sansa was Lady of Winterfell, that much is undisputed. Her power in relation to that of Jon's who Dany named Warden of the North is more than slightly vague but irrelevant here in respect to Edmure. Bran was just another Stark at the time because he said pass. Military experience is completely irrelevant to the queen and has always been so. Queen does not need any qualifications. She got the position because her last name, or more specifically because it is God's / Gods' will - just like Bran would have if he would have wanted it. That's how it worked in Seven Kingdoms, that's how it worked for most of the feudal systems - and that's how it still works in the North. Backstabbing her family is very much up to interpretation - at very best - and complete nonsense realistically. Your last paragraph makes zero sense in the setting. Robert Baratheon got to be King because treason. It was not a modern society and in fact it was not even a single society. Zero logic anywhere was a damn good reason to move on from feudal systems as we did several centuries ago. And again - Sansa's treason is in the eye of the beholders and some people really really -really- want it to be there. The history is full of "treasons" without which we would be living in that zero logic world. The fact that Sansa needs to be crucified according to some people is just because they hate on her for good reasons like screwing up royally (as a 12 year old) and telling Queen Cersei some stuff or because she was an air head or because she was rather an annoying character on metalevel or whatever - none of that is relevant to the story. Her kingdom was the North. Jon screwed up by bending the knee for nothing. She still tried to put him on the throne (despite some hateful theories of her trying to get him killed which - if you watch the show are borderline insane) and in the end she did damn well for her people. That is relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, Lollygag said: Nope. https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Edmure_Tully Honestly, that sounds like a flop from the writers... so Arya killed the Freys, but she either didn't release him or forgot about him? She didn't tell the rest of the family that she had released him, he didn't go to the North (did he stay in Lannister-controlled Riverlands?) or to Daenerys? Even if he was set free, the Lannister controlled the Riverlands. He had no troops. 1 minute ago, Dragons 7th Eye said: 2. Riverrun swore for Starks. That's why Edmure and Blackfish etc. were with Robb. Sansa was Lady of Winterfell, that much is undisputed. Her power in relation to that of Jon's who Dany named Warden of the North is more than slightly vague but irrelevant here in respect to Edmure. Bran was just another Stark at the time because he said pass. That's not how feudalism works. Jon was alive, hence Jon was Edmure's liege at that point... Or maybe not... maybe the Riverlands considered their feudal bond to the Starks extinct after Robb was dead and the North was defeated during the War of the Five Kings... Jon was the King/Lord of the North and Warden of the North. Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell as vassal to Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Just now, Ser Lepus said: Honestly, that sounds like a flop from the writers... so Arya killed the Freys, but she either didn't release him or forgot about him? She didn't tell the rest of the family that she had released him, he didn't go to the North (did he stay in Lannister-controlled Riverlands?) or to Daenerys? Even if he was set free, the Lannister controlled the Riverlands. He had no troops. Jaime didn't have troops either, but he still showed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giskard Reventlov Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, Lollygag said: Houses don't last thousands and thousands of years through all of that war without keeping the name through the female line. Cat was going to keep the Tully name as heir until Edmure came along. Yes, not unheard of but still not very common, or at all. Westeros is very much for agnatic primogeniture in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBlackwater Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 35 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said: Edmure was captured by the Lannisters. I don't know what Cersei did with him, or how he did survive the destruction of the Red Keep, but he wasn't free during the battle against the Others and he didn't have any troops to send... Maybe once the Lannisters were dead he was set free. Just in time to try to make a play for the crown. I did feel like that was one character they kept honest lol. I feel like book Edmure would have made the same lofty sort of speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giskard Reventlov Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Didn't Jaime send Edmur to casterly Rock (In the boks) ? Or promised him that he will if he surrenders 15 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said: ......Jon screwed up by bending the knee for nothing. ..... For nothing ? For getting the help, without witch all northeners & Sansa would be zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons 7th Eye Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said: Jon was the King/Lord of the North and Warden of the North. Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell as vassal to Jon That's just not true. I get the distinct feeling of several of your posts that you feel strongly about the matters but you just don't know the world very well and just make up stuff to support whatever it is that you need that Sansa was bad. Warden is a military title and practically useless outside of realm of war. It is very hard to make distinction of where the power of a Lord and Warden ends as the wardens have so often - but not always - been the Lords of great houses, such as Ned Stark was Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. However one thing is very clear - A high Lord is not a liege of a Warden and Sansa being the Lady of Winterfell most certainly was not under Jon in pecking order. That's just the way it is, even if it doesn't fit your narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Yeah....Sansa has been one of my favourite characters since the beginning but I'm not buying "Super Sansa Queen of Da Norf" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Giskard Reventlov said: Didn't Jaime send Edmur to casterly Rock (In the boks) ? Or promised him that he will if he surrenders Yep, but the Unsullied didn't find Edmure in Casterly Rock after taking it. Walder Frey (or was Arya disguised as Walder?) on the other hand, said that he was at the Twins... I don't think even D&D know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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