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Discussing Sansa - The Last One: Queen In The North!!!

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3 minutes ago, Giskard Reventlov said:

Didn't Jaime send Edmur to casterly Rock (In the boks) ? Or promised him that he will if he surrenders

For nothing ?

For getting the help, without witch all northeners & Sansa would be zombies.

Yes. For nothing.

Dany had already promised to bring his armies and dragons North to fight the NK before Jon knelt. He knelt because he wanted - something else. Help was already promised. Terrible Sansa called Jon on this too, by the way, and still supported him for the King.

Also Jaime didn't. Edmure was in the cells according to his wikipage.

Seriously people. Facts straight first.

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1 minute ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

That's just not true. I get the distinct feeling of several of your posts that you feel strongly about the matters but you just don't know the world very well and just make up stuff to support whatever it is that you need that Sansa was bad.

Warden is a military title and practically useless outside of realm of war. It is very hard to make distinction of where the power of a Lord and Warden ends as the wardens have so often - but not always - been the Lords of great houses, such as Ned Stark was Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. However one thing is very clear - A high Lord is not a liege of a Warden and Sansa being the Lady of Winterfell most certainly was not under Jon in pecking order. That's just the way it is, even if it doesn't fit your narrative.

When Jon was made King of the North, he made Sansa Lady of Winterfell. Sansa was the lady of the castle of Winterfell, but the lords of the North swore loyalty to Jon, not to Sansa.

Then Jon bent the knee to Daenerys, so it was Daenerys>Jon>Sansa.

It is unclear what tittle would Jon hold after bending the knee to Daenerys (Lord Paramount of the North? King of the North, but under the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? Renly offered Robb a similar deal...), but Sansa was still his vassal...

I will give you another example: The Tullies were lords of Riverrun, and Lords Paramount of the Riverlands. The Riverlords were vassals to the Tullies as Lords Paramount of the Riverlands. After the defeat of Robb, a junior branch of the Freys received the castle of Riverrun, but Littlefinger was made Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, and overlord of the Riverlords.

Sansa was in a similar situation... she got the castle and lands of Winterfell, but the lords swore loyalty to Jon.

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1 minute ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Yes. For nothing.

Dany had already promised to bring his armies and dragons North to fight the NK before Jon knelt. He knelt because he wanted - something else. Help was already promised. Terrible Sansa called Jon on this too, by the way, and still supported him for the King.

Also Jaime didn't. Edmure was in the cells according to his wikipage.

Seriously people. Facts straight first.

Didn't she said she will bring armies..etc...only if...  in that cave?

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2 hours ago, Giskard Reventlov said:

True, but that was 1000 years ago and its not a very common thing in Westeros.

Common thing is that when male heirs die out so does the House.

Cadet branches, such as the Carolingians for the Merovingians, Capet for the Carolinginans, Valois for the Capets, Bourbons for the Valois, etc. is another common way to not die out particularly.

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23 hours ago, north of the wall said:

I lov Sansa but i dont like this ending for her. Queen in the North is great, but she's now lost all her family, she is Queen in he North with no named character she cares about and why on Earth should the North be it's own kingdom if the other kingdoms aren't? I can only see that being a huge mistake in he future. The North no longer has allies or a say in who is the king of westeros, so I see big problems in he future. I just don't get what there is to be happy about with his ending except that Sansa is alive

The North never cared who was on the Iron Throne, thats why GreatJon named Robb, KING IN THE NORTH!!!

 

Also, the North indeed has allies. The Riverlands and the Vale. 

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4 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

The North never cared who was on the Iron Throne, thats why GreatJon named Robb, KING IN THE NORTH!!!

 

Also, the North indeed has allies. The Riverlands and the Vale. 

They have allies now. What happens in a generation or two? Since they are out of the 7 kingdoms they will loose the family ties, unless they plan to make marriage alliances

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5 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

I think D&D handled this really badly, or they white washed her after such negative criticism in her Jeyne Poole plot.

But I think Sansa will be way more machiavellian in the books and she'll play the game of thrones to win the Northern Crown.  It won't just be handed to her because she says the Northern Lords won't accept it.

And I think part of the chaos she'll sew will be to plant those divisive seeds between Jon and Dany, and to feed Dany's paranoia.  Also I think she won't be at all apologetic about sending Jon to the Wall.  I think she'll ensure he is out of the way.

Arya learned to become a FM.  Bran the Greenseer.  Sansa the best GOT player left in the kingdom.  That's the training they were meant to receive in their five year gap.

Fully agree, that's why I say that she play/played/will play/ a huge role in Dany's path to madness, if even she goes mad in the books.

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Posted (edited)

I doubt Sansa really has a happy ending. The pack split. Arya is more Iron Born than Stark now, Jon more Freefolk. Bran’s sigil is a crow/raven.

It felt to me she had become Cersei and Littlefinger’s figurative heir, and the Starks not staying by her side now that she rules is reminiscent of how Cersei lost everyone she cared for as she sought power. Her husband will likely be Robyn, and that relationship will be completely one-sided, she will control the north as an independent state and the Vale through a proxy.

The question is whether or not Bran cares about her or the Starks at all anymore, and my guess is he doesn’t. She won’t be privileged, and her getting independence means nothing to him since he has probably 4D-checkmated her decades ahead of whatever she might pull off at the expense of the other kingdoms down the line.

The pack did not survive.

Edited by NonoNono

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32 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

The pack did not survive.

The pack survived the winter, whether people understand that members of family can live in separate places or not. More than location, I believe their loyalty and love count for more. Each of them are deeply connected with one another. Sansa through Winterfell, Arya through Needle, Jon through Ghost. Yes, their life brought them to different places. But that doesn't mean they are not as loyal to others as they have ever been. The point the authors made is not some great sadness over how they are separated, but uplifting moment of achievement for all of them, a sense of new adventure. 

37 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

It felt to me she had become Cersei and Littlefinger’s figurative heir, and the Starks not staying by her side now that she rules is reminiscent of how Cersei lost everyone she cared for as she sought power.

With certain differences people are so keen to forget:

1. Sansa didn't alienate her family. She never conspired to murder them or actively sought their death. Arya always wanted to be adventurer. Even in the books, from her first chapter when she named her direwolf, Nymeria, one could have anticipated this ending for her. She is not a lady, not a knight. Her staying beside Bran or Sansa wouldn't make much sense. When Ghost was sent North, it was just a moment when Jon will join him. Going rogue for the Prince is not unheard of in fantasy. So, that is the first major difference. Sansa didn't lose them. They didn't abandon her and if the time comes when she needs them, they'll be there for her. Something Cersei couldn't count on. Bran, Arya, Jon... They all believe in her. Something Cersei never had from Jaime or Tyrion.

2. In episode 1, we have seen Sansa worrying how she'll feed the people. In episode 4, we see her expressing concern about her armies' strengths. Just that is enough to make these two fundamentally different. 

3. When Tyrion asked about the King or Queen in the last Great Council, the first look we have is between Yara and Sansa, both denying it. For Sansa, and we spoke about that, Northern independence is personally connected to her own story and gaining agency. Unlike Cersei, Sansa doesn't want to exert power over everyone. She wants North free. Yes, she will be Queen, but it is another fundamental difference - Sansa didn't sought or grab the power, she is accepted as Cersei never had. Look at her coronation and look at Cersei's. Two can't be more different.

4. Littlefinger learned Sansa that chaos is a ladder. That it provides us opportunity to climb. His dream was sitting on Iron Throne with her by his side. Sansa never wanted that. As a kid, she wanted to be Queen, but it was just that... As she grew up, she learned about queens and leading. She has seen the good, the bad and the worst. And she never fully became Littlefinger's disciple, just as Arya never truly became Faceless. They may have had some questionable teachers, but they always remained who they were - Starks.

53 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

The question is whether or not Bran cares about her or the Starks at all anymore, and my guess is he doesn’t. She won’t be privileged, and her getting independence means nothing to him since he has probably 4D-checkmated her decades ahead of whatever she might pull off at the expense of the other kingdoms down the line.

This is hilarious. Sansa had the opportunity to be Queen of Seven Kingdoms. She certainly would have support. Tyrion, Royce, Edmure, Arya, all see her as an authority figure. I doubt that even Yara would have anything against it. And as we have seen it, she passed it. She simply didn't want it. What she wanted and what she eventually got is for North to be free of South. And she got that. She is happy. She is satisfied. That was her Game - independence. And she won it.

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7 hours ago, north of the wall said:

They have allies now. What happens in a generation or two? Since they are out of the 7 kingdoms they will loose the family ties, unless they plan to make marriage alliances

The North doesnt need allies. Only the Dragons took down the Stark dynasty. 

 

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I don't see why would Stark name die out with Sansa, she is a queen regnant and Stark is a royal family now. When she marries her husband will probably get the title of prince consort to the Queen in the North, he won't get any effective power, he'll wield certain influence, like Cersei did when she was married to Robert and will greatly improve the status of his own house. Their children will have Stark name because she is higher in status than her husband. And she will certainly have to have few children in case some of them die and to make political marriages in the future, that's what all royal families do if you look at history.

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1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

The North doesnt need allies. Only the Dragons took down the Stark dynasty. 

 

I had thought about that, but I feel like if anyone wanted to make the North part of the 7 kingdoms again they could still try. A smart monarch would use trading as a way to exert power over the North instead of try war, but the North may be able to grow everything they need if the seasons are back to normal. I wouldn't trust the other kingdoms in the future regardless of how they may try to reclaim their lost kingdom, and I don't think GRRM would leave that as a possibility and would have a discussion of some sort between Sansa and someone (anyone) where they think of those types of possibilities.

12 minutes ago, space-demmentia said:

I don't see why would Stark name die out with Sansa, she is a queen regnant and Stark is a royal family now. When she marries her husband will probably get the title of prince consort to the Queen in the North, he won't get any effective power, he'll wield certain influence, like Cersei did when she was married to Robert and will greatly improve the status of his own house. Their children will have Stark name because she is higher in status than her husband. And she will certainly have to have few children in case some of them die and to make political marriages in the future, that's what all royal families do if you look at history.

Pretty much this. I'm 90% sure it's stated in the books that if that if the heir is female her husband takes her last name (so usually a 2ntd or 3rd son who won't inherit from his own family). But since I don't have a quote I can't be too sure. Regardless Sansa is Queen and her husband will be king, but only in name, not in practice. And their children will be Starks. Poor Sansa must be so sick of marriage, she has no choice now though, no point in a new kingdom without any heirs!

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I am more happy for book Sansa than show Sansa (who became extremely annoying in a look how clever I am while doing F all sort of way) . Book Sansa was probably my least favourite Stark as a POV character but was a decent person who deserved a good ending.

I am not entirely sure why some think she cannot keep her name if she marries, she is a reigning queen after all, she can keep the name if she wants too and there will be scores of noblemen happy to marry her regardless. There should always be a Stark in Winterfell and it will fall to her to continue the line.

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Also don't see why many have an issue with Northern independence. They are cultural distinct from the rest of the seven kingdoms, geographically isolated and most of them have a different religion. Why shouldn't they have national self-determination?

The bigger issue is that Dorne should have declared independence as well.

 

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Sansa's always been a favourite of mine, so I'm thrilled with her ending. She's campaigned tirelessly for Northern independence in the last few seasons (and I think she will in the books, too). She was also in King's Landing to get Jon out of jail and back home, where he belongs. I take that to mean she also wanted him reinstated as King in the North, but that wasn't to be. And I'm glad. She deserves this, Winterfell is hers. The North is hers. She's a great ruler and will be a great Queen.

I've spent more time than I care to remember defending her in various FB groups etc. The hate directed at her from the start has been completely irrational and unjustified, which only made me love her character more. And this is more than vindication. She's the best!

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17 hours ago, Ser Lepus said:

When Jon was made King of the North, he made Sansa Lady of Winterfell. Sansa was the lady of the castle of Winterfell, but the lords of the North swore loyalty to Jon, not to Sansa.

Then Jon bent the knee to Daenerys, so it was Daenerys>Jon>Sansa.

It is unclear what tittle would Jon hold after bending the knee to Daenerys (Lord Paramount of the North? King of the North, but under the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? Renly offered Robb a similar deal...), but Sansa was still his vassal...

I will give you another example: The Tullies were lords of Riverrun, and Lords Paramount of the Riverlands. The Riverlords were vassals to the Tullies as Lords Paramount of the Riverlands. After the defeat of Robb, a junior branch of the Freys received the castle of Riverrun, but Littlefinger was made Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, and overlord of the Riverlords.

Sansa was in a similar situation... she got the castle and lands of Winterfell, but the lords swore loyalty to Jon.

Like I already said, you are free to go on making your own rules in your head and, it is quite apparent that you are not going to stop any time soon so, do carry on. That is not, however, at all how it works in the universe GRRM created. Lord of Winterfell is the Lord of the North - Sansa was the Lady of Winterfell. You can fabricate as much as you want, and you are doing that more than anything else. This time you are trying to make it about the castle named Winterfell after falling flat on so many arguments already. It really is not very complicated and it is all laid out for those willing to go look for the background instead of just making stuff up as they go, to support their argument. I am quite done here.

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17 hours ago, Giskard Reventlov said:

Didn't she said she will bring armies..etc...only if...  in that cave?

No. It's all in the same scene. First Dany promises to come and fight for the living and; then Jon for some obscure reason just throws The North away for nothing. This topic is just unbearable because people refuse to stick to facts.

Dany promises to come and destroy the NK and his army together with Jon; and then Jon says he'd bend the knee but.. S7E6 1:02:xx

 

 

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On 5/15/2019 at 8:14 PM, Risto said:

Unless you can find the way to blame it on Sansa :D 

Ask and you shall receive, ez. The bitch bitched about the troops not being ready to march, so she went alone by sea and got ambushed and lost a dragon and a handmaiden. Obviously she did not see urine because she was tilted because of Sansa passive aggressiveness.

Honestly, seriously there is no plot, stop arguing needlessly about angel´s junk.

"Killed half million" pleze if there was another episode 9/10 of that would still be alive.

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