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Discussing Sansa - The Last One: Queen In The North!!!

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2 hours ago, wvchemteach said:

Showrunners stated someone tipped Euron and Cersei off to Daenery's travel plans which allowed them to set up the ambush at Dragonstone. It's possible it was Varys except he doesn't know about Jon at that point. Could just be the random spies that Qyburn was employing that told him the Wall fell... or it could have been someone that had nothing to lose and everything to gain if both Daenerys and Jon end up dead in the South.

Uh. That's up there with Dany kinda forgot that Euron had a fleet, Sansa didn't tell Tyrion about Jon - he only guessed from her facial expressions (yet she apologized later?) and the Dothraki went extinct in episode 3 yet they reappeared in the rest of the series. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Are people really arguing whether or not Sansa had any legal authority to tell Edmure to sit down?  Because from what I saw Edmure was making an ass of himself and wasting everyone's time and only Sansa had the balls to tell him to shut up and sit down.

No. We are arguing about Sansa being queen of just the North (as I claim), or also queen of the Riverlands and maybe the Vale too (as some people believe...).

But it's true that Sansa could have used of a bit of diplomacy when she spoke to Edmure... for somebody who is supposed to have learned to play the game, she has a habit of attacking, antagonizing and undermining in public her allies and relatives, people whose help she may need in the future...

It's the same as when she felt the need to remark that Bran's dick won't get up while he was being chosen king, bitched about how much Dany's troops ate (troops that came to help defend Winterfell), or antagonized Jon, her king, during councils.

She has the subtley and cunning of a sledgehammer...

Edited by Ser Lepus

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6 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Ha-ha, under the bus... well, she broke her oath, but for the better. She sacrificed Daenerys, not Jon. I regard it as immoral and wrong, but she did not really drop Jon.

I don't even see it as wrong. If they wanted me to see her telling Tyrion as a power grab for herself or her using Jon for something, they should have put that in the show. Sansa stated her reason very clearly. She knows Jon is a threat to Dany's rule which could put his life in danger. The men in her family don't do well in KL. It's the same reason she didn't want him to go to Dragonstone in S7 (Stark men don't do well in the South). She noticed that even Tyrion was afraid of Dany. And only after all these stated reasons did she tell Tyrion. None of the reasons stated on screen suggest anything other than 'Sansa fears for Jon's life'.

6 hours ago, El Guapo said:

Yeah I give this new system of theirs about 10 years or so after the dust settles before some ambitious Lord or Lords decide that maybe the kid in the wheelchair wasn't the best choice to rule Westeros after all and then try to seize the throne for themselves.

I give it less than a year. The council is a joke. Seriously, Tyrion and freaking Bronn? The King himself is always off getting high and doesn't give a damn about people anyway. Tyrion is essentially the ruler of the 6 Kingdoms. Once that becomes clear, all bets are off. The imp, the Kinslayer, the Kingslayer (most people don't know he didn't kill Joffrey), the Hand to the woman who torched KL. People are surely going to love him in charge. And it was his actions, plans and divided loyalties that lead to the fall of the wall and a million dead people in KL. That took him 2 years, imagine how much damage he can do in 1. Bronn will pull a book LF and stuff as much coin into his own pocket as he can and bankrupt the realm.

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I hate that Sansa was the only character to never have consensual sex on the show. ARYA had sexual agency before Sansa did. Something is truly messed up if this is D&D and George's ending for her.

Also the idea that women who are raped can't or don't want to find love or partnership again is disgusting. That these characters can only have a rape or abuse storyline and become queen. Sorry, love of the people doesn't keep you warm at night. What message does that send to victims - you'll never get over it? It damages you? Just love your work and everything will be fine?

I also saw some takes that said that Sansa is venturing out into dating again by the fact that she went up to talk to Sandor. Um, hello? This guy said he "should have fucked her bloody" and then what do they discuss? OH YEAH her rape.

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I hate that Sansa was the only character to never have consensual sex on the show. ARYA had sexual agency before Sansa did. Something is truly messed up if this is D&D and George's ending for her.

Also the idea that women who are raped can't or don't want to find love or partnership again is disgusting. That these characters can only have a rape or abuse storyline and become queen. Sorry, love of the people doesn't keep you warm at night. What message does that send to victims - you'll never get over it? It damages you? Just love your work and everything will be fine?

I also saw some takes that said that Sansa is venturing out into dating again by the fact that she went up to talk to Sandor. Um, hello? This guy said he "should have fucked her bloody" and then what do they discuss? OH YEAH her rape.

 

We know that Gilly was probably a rape survivor; since I doubt she willingly slept with her father; and she managed to survive and eventually find love and happiness with another, kinder, man.  

I've always thought that Sandor's saying that he "should have fucked her bloody" were more to goad Arya into mercy-killing him than a true desire to physically damage Sansa.  Did TV-Sandor sexually desire Sansa?  Probably; but he did not attempt to rape her and might well have been willing to wait for sexual intercourse until she reciprocated his desire, or not tried to seduce her at all (since he might have tried to take her back to her mother and brother as a maiden).  (I'm convinced that book-Sandor did have sex on his mind when he came to Sansa's room during the Battle of the Blackwater, whether or not Sansa was willing; but Sansa persuaded him not to hurt her, reaching whatever decency was within him)

I hope that Sansa is able to find a husband she can respect, if not love; and enjoy being a mother of the next generation of Starks.  Hopefully she will have a long and ultimately prosperous reign.

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13 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

We know that Gilly was probably a rape survivor; since I doubt she willingly slept with her father; and she managed to survive and eventually find love and happiness with another, kinder, man

Still, a kinder man who couldn't sacrifice his ambitions to protect their children from the cast of being bastards?

The rape survivor doesn't deserve the in!verse respect being a married lady of Hornhill would afford her?

I guess Sam's desire to be Maester would trump that.

Or maybe being friends with the king will have his Grace the Bran!bot leaning on the Citadel to change the rules for Sam.

Sam's big on change.

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19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I hate that Sansa was the only character to never have consensual sex on the show. ARYA had sexual agency before Sansa did. Something is truly messed up if this is D&D and George's ending for her.

Also the idea that women who are raped can't or don't want to find love or partnership again is disgusting. That these characters can only have a rape or abuse storyline and become queen. Sorry, love of the people doesn't keep you warm at night. What message does that send to victims - you'll never get over it? It damages you? Just love your work and everything will be fine?

I also saw some takes that said that Sansa is venturing out into dating again by the fact that she went up to talk to Sandor. Um, hello? This guy said he "should have fucked her bloody" and then what do they discuss? OH YEAH her rape.

My take is that she did get these things, just off-screen. She's QitN, so no one will force her to marry or sleep with anyone she doesn't want to. She can even go the Mormont route and have children and not marry which wouldn't have been ok as part of the South, but as the Northern Queen free to do things in a more Northern way, she now has this option.

I don't think they wrote that a woman who was raped wouldn't want to move on at all. She at first was about Theon, with whom she could have a romantic relationship without sleeping with him, then they showed her considering Tyrion who never forced her, and with Sandor, she brought up working through that. There's a progression there, all be it way too fast as so much of the show was too fast. It would have put me off immensely for Sansa to turn around and want to be in relationship without time to deal with that as it would have minimized the seriousness of how she was treated. 

The Stark kids all took sexual and marital agency. Arya and Jon also refused to let others force them into sex and marriage that they didn't want. 

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53 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

My take is that she did get these things, just off-screen. She's QitN, so no one will force her to marry or sleep with anyone she doesn't want to. She can even go the Mormont route and have children and not marry which wouldn't have been ok as part of the South, but as the Northern Queen free to do things in a more Northern way, she now has this option.

I don't think they wrote that a woman who was raped wouldn't want to move on at all. She at first was about Theon, with whom she could have a romantic relationship without sleeping with him, then they showed her considering Tyrion who never forced her, and with Sandor, she brought up working through that. There's a progression there, all be it way too fast as so much of the show was too fast. It would have put me off immensely for Sansa to turn around and want to be in relationship without time to deal with that as it would have minimized the seriousness of how she was treated. 

The Stark kids all took sexual and marital agency. Arya and Jon also refused to let others force them into sex and marriage that they didn't want. 

I just didnt want to have to headcanon it, when everyone else got it in canon. That's not satisfying to me. 

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

She at first was about Theon, with whom she could have a romantic relationship without sleeping with him, then they showed her considering Tyrion who never forced her, and with Sandor, she brought up working through that.

I saw nothing romantic or sexual with Sansa in regards to either of those 3 men. Sansa and Theon got Ramsey-d, that's a trauma that would forever link them together in a special way because no one else can understand what they went through. With Tyrion I saw it as 'Men will do stupid things for women. They are easily manipulated.' And that's if I'm being generous. Calling Tyrion the best of them is the lowest bar ever to clear when the other guys are Ramsey, Joffrey and Little Finger. Nothing romantic about that, just a fact. And Sandor was never a thing in the show.

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1 hour ago, Mystical said:

I saw nothing romantic or sexual with Sansa in regards to either of those 3 men. Sansa and Theon got Ramsey-d, that's a trauma that would forever link them together in a special way because no one else can understand what they went through. With Tyrion I saw it as 'Men will do stupid things for women. They are easily manipulated.' And that's if I'm being generous. Calling Tyrion the best of them is the lowest bar ever to clear when the other guys are Ramsey, Joffrey and Little Finger. Nothing romantic about that, just a fact. And Sandor was never a thing in the show.

I don't think Sansa was actively planning anything, but it was more of an indication of a change in her, something that she was thinking about which was previously unthinkable. If Sansa was in the place that she was in previously, I don't think those interactions would have developed in that way at all. Just signs that she has started to heal a bit. Moving from a state where one can't handle relationships at all to a state where one is ready for something new is almost always a gradual process rather than a switch flip. 

I saw the Sandor conversation as more about how Sansa was processing what happened to her, not about anything with romantic with Sandor personally. 

 

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What I don't get is people being pissed over the Edmure thing.

Like if that was the Queen of Thorns or probably any other female character saying it everyone would have cheered. But since it's Sansa suddenly she's just a bitch.

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On 5/26/2019 at 6:17 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I hate that Sansa was the only character to never have consensual sex on the show. ARYA had sexual agency before Sansa did. Something is truly messed up if this is D&D and George's ending for her.

Also the idea that women who are raped can't or don't want to find love or partnership again is disgusting. That these characters can only have a rape or abuse storyline and become queen. Sorry, love of the people doesn't keep you warm at night. What message does that send to victims - you'll never get over it? It damages you? Just love your work and everything will be fine?

I also saw some takes that said that Sansa is venturing out into dating again by the fact that she went up to talk to Sandor. Um, hello? This guy said he "should have fucked her bloody" and then what do they discuss? OH YEAH her rape.

I never got the Sansa/Sandor ship. Like this is the dude who verbally abuses her, calls her stupid all the time, threatened to rape her, etc. but somehow they're shipped??? Yeah he refuses to beat her. Big fucking whoop. Not exactly star boyfriend material.

I just ship Sansa and eternal happiness and am totally fine with making an OC since the show never bothers to give her a consensual love interest.

IMO she fell in love with a wonderful man or woman who was awesome and respected her in every way and they complete each other and there was a beautiful wedding and everything is happy ever after.

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41 minutes ago, Pandean said:

What I don't get is people being pissed over the Edmure thing.

Like if that was the Queen of Thorns or probably any other female character saying it everyone would have cheered. But since it's Sansa suddenly she's just a bitch.

Well, Olenna was supposed to be a bitch. I don't think the show wanted us to think the same of Sansa. Her snark was supposed to show what a Strong Female Character she's become. It just came off as rude and condescending, and I would think the same if Arya said the same.

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18 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Well, Olenna was supposed to be a bitch. I don't think the show wanted us to think the same of Sansa. Her snark was supposed to show what a Strong Female Character she's become. It just came off as rude and condescending, and I would think the same if Arya said the same.

Respect your elders!

Even if they're making fools of themselves?

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Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2019 at 9:17 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I hate that Sansa was the only character to never have consensual sex on the show. ARYA had sexual agency before Sansa did. Something is truly messed up if this is D&D and George's ending for her.

Eh?! She isn't even the only named character in the show who's forced into sex against her will. In show!universe and book!universe, highborn women exist to consolidate family alliances and give birth to heirs. Sexual desire (or its absence) on the woman's part doesn't come into it. Lowborn women exist to give birth to the next generation of manual laborers and farmworkers, and to slake the sexual needs of any passing soldier, sailor, beggarman, or thief.

I'm remembering the scene where Littlefinger admonishes Ros in the brothel. She is grieving the horrendous murder of the infant Barra, bastard daughter to Robert Baratheon. Littlefinger says, in essence, "You're moping! It's a total buzzkill for the clients. Take the rest of the day off and come back with a happy face, or else I'll find some megarich sadistic torturer and sell you off to him." It's pretty disgusting, but totally faithful to the aSoIaF world.

Edited to add: This scene did not occur in the novels.

This aspect of worldbuilding, or sociology, or whatever you wish to call it, was abandoned in later seasons. This may have given the illusion that female characters suddenly obtained free will, independent of all context. I call BS.

Edited by Gendelsdottir

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55 minutes ago, Gendelsdottir said:

Eh?! She isn't even the only named character in the show who's forced into sex against her will. In show!universe and book!universe, highborn women exist to consolidate family alliances and give birth to heirs. Sexual desire (or its absence) on the woman's part doesn't come into it. Lowborn women exist to give birth to the next generation of manual laborers and farmworkers, and to slake the sexual needs of any passing soldier, sailor, beggarman, or thief.

I'm remembering the scene where Littlefinger admonishes Ros in the brothel. She is grieving the horrendous murder of the infant Barra, bastard daughter to Robert Baratheon. Littlefinger says, in essence, "You're moping! It's a total buzzkill for the clients. Take the rest of the day off and come back with a happy face, or else I'll find some megarich sadistic torturer and sell you off to him." It's pretty disgusting, but totally faithful to the aSoIaF world.

This aspect of worldbuilding, or sociology, or whatever you wish to call it, was abandoned in later seasons. This may have given the illusion that female characters suddenly obtained free will, independent of all context. I call BS.

Unless the objection is to the level of brutality implied in the 'Sansa as Jeyne' arc?

Can we all agree that the skeevyness of having a septa purposefully placed in every House to completely achieve the notion of 'pliant broodmare is your life's goal' for every highborn daughter is, well, medieval?

Coercion does not consent make.

It's simply the way society worked in that setting.

The Lord had the duty to ensure continuance of his bloodline so his family could keep control of his lands and people. The end. The wife, beyond an opportunity for alliance and advancement negotiated with her father or guardian, was merely a tool for this.

Nowhere in that logic leaves any avenue for the Lady in question to have agency, lest she be in comtempt of her cast as her lord husband's dutiful wife.

 

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24 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Unless the objection is to the level of brutality implied in the 'Sansa as Jeyne' arc?

Can we all agree that the skeevyness of having a septa purposefully placed in every House to completely achieve the notion of 'pliant broodmare is your life's goal' for every highborn daughter is, well, medieval?

Coercion does not consent make.

It's simply the way society worked in that setting.

The Lord had the duty to ensure continuance of his bloodline so his family could keep control of his lands and people. The end. The wife, beyond an opportunity for alliance and advancement negotiated with her father or guardian, was merely a tool for this.

Nowhere in that logic leaves any avenue for the Lady in question to have agency, lest she be in comtempt of her cast as her lord husband's dutiful wife.

 

Yes to all of the above.

Whether or not a viewer likes or dislikes a character is, I feel, irrelevant to the narrative. So subjective! Is a character's good fortune intended as compensation for her earlier torment, and thus well-deserved? Or is it undeserved because the character is such a bitch? That is soooo not the way I watch a show.

I've read somewhere that JK Rowling paired Hermione with Ron - not Harry, to the outrage of Harmony shippers the world over - because the character of Ron had endured so much use 'n' abuse throughout the saga. It apparently didn't feel "fair" to award Hermione to Harry as his ultimate prize, leaving Ron with his nose pressed up against the candy-shop window as usual. I hope this is not true. It would be such a copout.

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Just now, Gendelsdottir said:

Yes to all of the above.

Whether or not a viewer likes or dislikes a character is, I feel, irrelevant to the narrative. So subjective! Is a character's good fortune intended as compensation for her earlier torment, and thus well-deserved? Or is it undeserved because the character is such a bitch? That is soooo not the way I watch a show.

I've read somewhere that JK Rowling paired Hermione with Ron - not Harry, to the outrage of Harmony shippers the world over - because the character of Ron had endured so much use 'n' abuse throughout the saga. It apparently didn't feel "fair" to award Hermione to Harry as his ultimate prize, leaving Ron with his nose pressed up against the candy-shop window as usual. I hope this is not true. It would be such a copout.

Wow, Hermione as a 'prize'. What a great lesson to teach little girls the world over!

Also, to the common people, on the surface Sansa got a good deal!

A confessed traitor's daughter, married to the defacto Warden of the North after his father had been 'poisoned by their enemies'.

Just like Good Queen Cersei, heartbroken after the undortunate accident that killed beloved Queen Margeary, her poor uncle Kevan and drove King Tommen to commit suicide! 

How kind and corageous of her to forego her grief to lead us even on her misery! How merciful she is!

It's not about what happened, it's how you spin it.

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6 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Wow, Hermione as a 'prize'. What a great lesson to teach little girls the world over!

In fairness to JKR, I don't think she used the word "prize." Here's a link to news article about it.

From the article:

Quote

 

Pamela Ingleton, an academic who has written about Rowling’s habit of revealing more about her stories after their publication, said some passionate Harry Potter fans felt angry that she was “entering on their territory”.

She said: “She is still constantly intervening in the process of understanding and reading these characters and these stories.

“In some ways she is speaking for the books instead of letting the books speak for themselves.”

... She added: “She wants to exert her control. She wants to be the one we depend on for information so that readers become reliant on her authority.”

 

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

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