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Risto

Discussing Sansa - The Last One: Queen In The North!!!

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12 hours ago, Risto said:

In order to do that, Sansa would have had to...

1. have killed Jorah

2. have killed Rhaegal

3. have killed Missandei

4. have returned in time to ask Rhaegar and Lyanna to procreate

5. have returned in time to create a Northern culture in which marrying and sleeping with aunt is unacceptable

Given that none of this happened, unless of course people want to argue that it happened off screen, we are safe to assume that Sansa most certainly wasn't the one that tipped Daenerys over the edge. Not even by a long shot.

If she hadn't said anything she would not have had varys turn against her. This added pain because dany then knew that jon had done it. That tyrion had made the stupid decision to go to varys. So yeah having a betrayl,someone try to start an uprising,jon doing something stupid (or at least knowing he did),seeing her hand screw up again,and having this happen at the worst possible time likely added to dany's mental state. And no sansa had no idea dany was gonna go insane. She was doing this just to cause trouble with dany and for the record is she succeded then dany and jon would be at war and either jon would get killed or thousands would die in a war. So yeah sansa is such a lovable character and has the gift of seeing the furture. Yep her pissing off the lady with a dragon was brilliant. Tyrion said if jon goes to be with dany then you would be the power in the north but that wasn't good enough. Sansa in season seven and eight was horribly written and did stupid stuff.  Blame the writers for ruining her character.

 

 

And by the way she was incredibly pissy and ungrateful considering if dany hadn't come to fight with the north then winterfeel would have been overwhelmed quick.  After doing that sansa still treated dany like she was some evil women. Dany lost over half her soldiers (it showed her losing them all but they regenerated somehow) and a close friend yet sansa was incredibly ungrateful and then tried to start an uprising with telling tyrion who jons parents were. Yeah sansa wasn't the ONLY thing that made fake danny lose it but she added to it. She showed dany that no matter what the people wouldn't love her.

 

And for the record I think this season has been full of so many screw ups and bad writing that I blame the writers and showrunners for the characters being so stupid and breaking character this season and last season.

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4 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

If she hadn't said anything she would not have had varys turn against her. This added pain because dany then knew that jon had done it. That tyrion had made the stupid decision to go to varys. So yeah having a betrayl,someone try to start an uprising,jon doing something stupid (or at least knowing he did),seeing her hand screw up again,and having this happen at the worst possible time likely added to dany's mental state. And no sansa had no idea dany was gonna go insane. She was doing this just to cause trouble with dany and for the record is she succeded then dany and jon would be at war and either jon would get killed or thousands would die in a war. So yeah sansa is such a lovable character and has the gift of seeing the furture. Yep her pissing off the lady with a dragon was brilliant. Tyrion said if jon goes to be with dany then you would be the power in the north but that wasn't good enough. Sansa in season seven and eight was horribly written and did stupid stuff.  Blame the writers for ruining her character.

 

 

And by the way she was incredibly pissy and ungrateful considering if dany hadn't come to fight with the north then winterfeel would have been overwhelmed quick.  After doing that sansa still treated dany like she was some evil women. Dany lost over half her soldiers (it showed her losing them all but they regenerated somehow) and a close friend yet sansa was incredibly ungrateful and then tried to start an uprising with telling tyrion who jons parents were. Yeah sansa wasn't the ONLY thing that made fake danny lose it but she added to it. She showed dany that no matter what the people wouldn't love her.

 

And for the record I think this season has been full of so many screw ups and bad writing that I blame the writers and showrunners for the characters being so stupid and breaking character this season and last season.

And after this she will live happily ever after in the North because that's what this show is teaching you: ungrateful snitches will run the future!!! :rofl:

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Sansa pitted Jon against Daenerys.   The very type of reason she executed Littlefinger.  Varys was executed for that.  She must die.

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2 hours ago, Nightwish said:

And after this she will live happily ever after in the North because that's what this show is teaching you: ungrateful snitches will run the future!!! :rofl:

I made the mistake of drinking soda while I was reading this. Took two minutes to clean it off my keyboard and moniter.

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2 hours ago, Hoo said:

Sansa pitted Jon against Daenerys.   The very type of reason she executed Littlefinger.  Varys was executed for that.  She must die.

Exactly! And lets be honest here if she expected dany to be violent then she just made jon the biggest threat to dany's rule and with far less troops and no dragon. She was either being stupid or she was willing to risk jons life for her own personal gain. Actually given the odds she was stupid either way. Because given the history of westeros who is really gonna join the weaker candidate when he is unknown by pretty much all of westeros outside the north. So at best she is stupid at worst she is stupid and was willing to risk jons life.

 

And for the record I liked sansa in season 6 and before that. She had great character growth but the writers tried to make her look smart and it backfired horribly. So I am not an "anti sansa" person.

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24 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

Actually given the odds she was stupid either way. Because given the history of westeros who is really gonna join the weaker candidate when he is unknown by pretty much all of westeros outside the north. So at best she is stupid at worst she is stupid and was willing to risk jons life.

 

Yep!  The point was to pin Jon against Dani.  I don't think she cares about either.  She cares about herself.  She was playing her game.

The two of them, Jon and Dani, should basically sentence her to death.

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4 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Yep!  The point was to pin Jon against Dani.  I don't think she cares about either.  She cares about herself.  She was playing her game.

The two of them, Jon and Dani, should basically sentence her to death.

EXACTLY! Sansa tried to start an uprising and tried to start it with tyrion who is the queens hand. Any leader that we have seen even ned stark would have sentenced her to death (if she weren't his daughter) if they were in dany's shoes.

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4 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

EXACTLY! Sansa tried to start an uprising and tried to start it with tyrion who is the queens hand. Any leader that we have seen even ned stark would have sentenced her to death (if she weren't his daughter) if they were in dany's shoes.

In a realm where justice exists and actually the bad ones are punished, but here we are seeing the good ones being treated with madness and the rotten ones getting castles. 

 

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I began this show as a huge Sansa hater.  Such a stupid child and all her stupid fairy tales.  Forgave her somewhat when I was able to realize she was a product of her upbringing.  It hurt me to see her hit rock bottom, but she was one of those people that required a complete breaking to change. (Although I do question if some things were necessary there) Kind of like those people who learn to slow down only after they crash and burn. She had a season and a few episodes where I began to like her.  Her conflict with Jon was great.  She was actually smarter than everyone else, and it pissed me off that they just dismissed her. 

This season though.  They gave her great moments as a leader, her interactions with Theon, Sandor, and even Tyrion were beautiful.  Then she had these jarring moments where she was just petty and self serving, and shortsighted.  Too much like Cersie, not at all the woman Sansa had grown into.  Why have all these characters evolve, only to strip them back down to where they began or worse? 

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12 minutes ago, NicciTarg said:

Why have all these characters evolve, only to strip them back down to where they began or worse? 

Yeah, I don't know why more Sansa fans aren't pissed at the writing. Maybe they don't care or notice that the show's only way of "showing" Sansa's intelligence was to throw every other character under the bus, but they've turned her into a petty and xenophobic Cersei/LF 2.0. You can't deny that they've presented her this way, even if her opinions have been validated.

She's just one more botched character, though she's escaped the worst.

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4 hours ago, Hoo said:

Sansa pitted Jon against Daenerys.   The very type of reason she executed Littlefinger.  Varys was executed for that.  She must die.

She should be sentenced to marry Robin Arryn.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yeah, I don't know why more Sansa fans aren't pissed at the writing. Maybe they don't care or notice that the show's only way of "showing" Sansa's intelligence was to throw every other character under the bus, but they've turned her into a petty and xenophobic Cersei/LF 2.0. You can't deny that they've presented her this way, even if her opinions have been validated.

She's just one more botched character, though she's escaped the worst.

I’ve been one step short of pissed for years about the writing for Sansa since Season 5 due to poor execution and missed opportunities.

Season 5: Going to the Boltons. Littlefinger should have known what was coming, all the politics she learned in King’s Landing went completely to waste, and while I applaud the showrunners’ discretion, she essentially became a plot device for Theon’s redemption.

Season 7: It took her all season to figure out Littlefinger was trying to pit her and Arya against each other, despite knowing, out of everyone alive, how manipulative Littlefinger was. Should have taken some sword lessons from Jon or Arya or Brienne; she wound up being as useful as nipples on a breastplate when the Army of the Dead came to Winterfell. Should have shown scenes caring for Northern smallfolk as well. Finally, she should have executed Littlefinger personally. 

Season 8: Why is she and the Northern Lords so die-hard about independence? The Army of the Dead cares jack shit about Northern independence. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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5 hours ago, snow is the man said:

If she hadn't said anything she would not have had varys turn against her. This added pain because dany then knew that jon had done it. That tyrion had made the stupid decision to go to varys. So yeah having a betrayl,someone try to start an uprising,jon doing something stupid (or at least knowing he did),seeing her hand screw up again,and having this happen at the worst possible time likely added to dany's mental state. And no sansa had no idea dany was gonna go insane. She was doing this just to cause trouble with dany and for the record is she succeded then dany and jon would be at war and either jon would get killed or thousands would die in a war. So yeah sansa is such a lovable character and has the gift of seeing the furture. Yep her pissing off the lady with a dragon was brilliant. Tyrion said if jon goes to be with dany then you would be the power in the north but that wasn't good enough. Sansa in season seven and eight was horribly written and did stupid stuff.  Blame the writers for ruining her character.

You see, with Varys, it was only a matter of time when he would have turned against Dany. Sansa only gave him whom to turn to. Even before the entire revelation, Varys was concerned about Dany. We have seen him worrying after Tarlys deaths, we have seen him during Feast of Winterfell. 

No, Sansa was doing that to protect Jon and North. As Sansa said "men from my family don't do well in KL" Tyrion even asks Sansa "Are you OK?" He sees that she is troubled, that she is afraid of something. And once it is clear that Jon is going to spend his future in the capital, it brings Ned's deathand all she survived. The moment she sees that Tyrion is also afraid, she grabs the chance. For Sansa, Dany is the enemy. Not just as Cersei, but equally, if not more, dangerous. Who can guarantee Sansa that Dany one day would not kill Jon because of his parenthood? Who can guarantee Sansa that Dany will not kill them all for knowing what they know? Sansa hit first but in no way can she be blamed for what Dany, and Dany alone, chose to do. 

Dany's "she killed him just as I did" is an excuse for what she has done. Because she knows why Varys died and what his true loyalties were. So, she is just trying to share the blame because she has just killed someone who objectively told her that she has failed. Dany basically put it on Sansa so her own guilt would not eat her alive. Because, she, just as Varys, deep down knows that Jon would be a better ruler than her. She just can't give up the throne.

5 hours ago, snow is the man said:

And for the record I think this season has been full of so many screw ups and bad writing that I blame the writers and showrunners for the characters being so stupid and breaking character this season and last season.

Was all of this against both Sansa and Dany? Probably yes. Just like Jon, Dany and Tyrion, Sansa is also a victim of poor writing choices.

5 hours ago, Hoo said:

Sansa pitted Jon against Daenerys.   The very type of reason she executed Littlefinger.  Varys was executed for that.  She must die.

No, she never pitted Jon against Dany. Jon's uprbinging did that. Simply, the moment he found out Dany is his aunt, the romance was over for him. That has nothing to do with Sansa.

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Exactly! And lets be honest here if she expected dany to be violent then she just made jon the biggest threat to dany's rule and with far less troops and no dragon. She was either being stupid or she was willing to risk jons life for her own personal gain. Actually given the odds she was stupid either way. Because given the history of westeros who is really gonna join the weaker candidate when he is unknown by pretty much all of westeros outside the north. So at best she is stupid at worst she is stupid and was willing to risk jons life.

Is Jon that unknown? We have seen that entire Westeros knows about Battle of the Bastards. Unlike Dany, he had done nothing to warrant any hate. As Varys said, he is a war hero. Son of a popular Prince. Jon has all the good PR Dany is so sorely missing. And they actually made a point of that. Dany is even aware of that. 

 

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

EXACTLY! Sansa tried to start an uprising and tried to start it with tyrion who is the queens hand. Any leader that we have seen even ned stark would have sentenced her to death (if she weren't his daughter) if they were in dany's shoes.

I agree that Dany is a threat to Sansa's life. And to quote Dowager Countess of Granthan, she must be removed :D

2 hours ago, NicciTarg said:

This season though.  They gave her great moments as a leader, her interactions with Theon, Sandor, and even Tyrion were beautiful.  Then she had these jarring moments where she was just petty and self serving, and shortsighted.  Too much like Cersie, not at all the woman Sansa had grown into.  Why have all these characters evolve, only to strip them back down to where they began or worse? 

The issue here is that people downplay what a danger Daenerys is to Jon and Starks. By just knowing who Jon is. I have my issues with writing for Sansa this year, especially in terms of her smug face and that atrocious behavior, but this is not the issue for me. Sansa did what she thought was best to at least try and protect Jon. When she noticed Tyrion's fear of Dany, she used it to gain a powerful ally who can at least keep Jon safe.

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yeah, I don't know why more Sansa fans aren't pissed at the writing. Maybe they don't care or notice that the show's only way of "showing" Sansa's intelligence was to throw every other character under the bus, but they've turned her into a petty and xenophobic Cersei/LF 2.0. You can't deny that they've presented her this way, even if her opinions have been validated.

Did I hate the look on Ms Turner's face half the season? Yeah. Did I hate her for telling Tyrion about Jon? No. Those are two different arguments.

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Near the end of season 7 Jon left Winterfell as King of the North.  Sansa supported this, even though she had a better claim to Winterfell as a true Stark.  Yes she was angry when Jon threw that all away for Danerys.  As was Lady Mormont.  Robb Stark and his army won the North's freedom from the Iron Throne, or was at least on track to, and then Jon basically surrendered it all to a foreigner without a fight.  Why? Because he claimed they could not beat the NK without her help.  And in the end, the Dothraki and Unsullied and the 2 dragons were utterly useless against the NK, so in Sansa's mind Jon bent the knee for nothing.  

Later when Sansa challenged Tyrion about his queen - "You fear her" -  he didn't deny it.  Sansa was worried about Jon's future in KL.  "The men of my family don't do well there".  Her uncle, her grandfather were both burned by the mad King after being summoned to KL.  And her father was executed there too right before her eyes.  Her motive in speaking to Tyrion was fear for her family - not some evil plot.  Tyrion (Hand of the Queen) should have been the ONE person Sansa could speak to, without fear of repercussions.   (If Danaerys didn't trust and confide in her own Hand, then shame on her, as Tyrion pointed out to her later in milder words.) 

YES Tyrion was foolish for speaking to Varys.  Still Sansa could not possibly have foreseen that.

Now if we had a scene of Sansa hiding in the shadows smiling , Baelish-like, while Tyrion spoke to Varys then yea - bad Sansa. 

I just don't buy the theory that Sansa knew she was causing total chaos by confiding in Tyrion. Who Dany should really be worried about is Samwell Tarly.  He's already got reason to hate her.  So if Varys didn't succeed in sending a raven, you can be damn sure Sam will, once he hears about what happened at KL.  Sam knows where the Septon's book is with the record of the secret annulment and wedding.  Sam knows who would be the best ruler for the Realm.  One raven to the Citadel and it's all public.  But Dany won't perhaps live long enough for that to matter now.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Season 7: It took her all season to figure out Littlefinger was trying to pit her and Arya against each other, despite knowing, out of everyone alive, how manipulative Littlefinger was. Should have taken some sword lessons from Jon or Arya or Brienne; she wound up being as useful as nipples on a breastplate when the Army of the Dead came to Winterfell. Should have shown scenes caring for Northern smallfolk as well. Finally, she should have executed Littlefinger personally. 

Yeah, that scene in the crypts cemented her transformation into Cersei 2.0 for me. All she was missing was a goblet of wine. What happened to the Sansa who sang songs to the others to calm them down?

15 minutes ago, Risto said:

Did I hate the look on Ms Turner's face half the season? Yeah. Did I hate her for telling Tyrion about Jon? No. Those are two different arguments.

Like I said, even if you think she's been sensible all this time, the show presents it as petty and spiteful behavior.

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2 minutes ago, Risto said:

No, she never pitted Jon against Dany. Jon's uprbinging did that. Simply, the moment he found out Dany is his aunt, the romance was over for him. That has nothing to do with Sansa.

That's a romance conflict.  Sansa pitted the throne conflict.  She swore to Jon not to tell, then turned around to cause revolt in the ranks -- to create a throne conflict.

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That Sansa's to blame for the fact that Daenerys went insane and burned Kings Landing is so abuser logic. "Look what you made me do! You made me so mad that I just had to murder lots of innocent people!"

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Targaryen Peas said:

Thus, Sansa destroyed Dany's sanity.

Nope.

She certainly didn't help to restore Dany already fragile state of mind. But that was not it. Dany already knew Sansa doesn't recognize her as queen and yet she doesn't react. She knows she betrayed Jon's confidence, and yet she does not snap.

It was the North reaction to her personally. It was the lack of consideration, of adoration Dany thought it was owed to her simply because she's the rightful queen.

As crappy as it was developed (and even more stupidly commented by D&D afterwards), just think when Dany snapped: When she heard the bells of the city surrender to her out of fear. The city was terrified, tried to escape, did not bow to her, did not call her "Mhysa" or adored her as they did when she came to Mereen. She saw the Lannister banners, not the Targaryan as she was brought up to believe.

In her mind she liberated them from the Mad Queen Cersei slavery, they owe her their love. They don't. And she snaps. Sansa has nothing to do with this.

Edited by Ranger Kragin

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17 hours ago, Torienne said:

Thank you for  sharing your thoughts!

You write a lot of interesting stuff about "protection" being the main theme of Sansa´s arc. But frankly asked: What do you think about Brienne? Brienne did protect her and obviously Sansa trusts her 100 per cent. Otherwise she would have Jaime killed when he arrived in Winterfell.

I have created a new thread outlining this theme of protection of children throughout ASOIAF. It begins with the one I wrote on Sandor, but Brienne is down the list a bit. You can just scroll down to her entry.

It's very bare-bones at this point, as I only understood the message of the story myself a couple days ago, and pulling all the pieces together is taking time: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/154628-asoiafs-overall-theme-can-be-drawn-out-of-sandors-arc-he-did-not-die-twice-he-died-three-times-he-was-a-true-knight/

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ranger Kragin said:

It was the lack of consideration, of adoration Dany thought it was owed to her

Oh you are right, it's not as if she crossed seas with foreign people to claim her throne, and then decided to save the realm costing her 2 dragsons and half her armies and loved ones. 

No you're right, she only deserved to be left alone in the throne room drinking her starbucks tea while the others got the merit they deserved.  

Edited by Targaryen Peas

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