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Risto

Discussing Sansa - The Last One: Queen In The North!!!

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6 hours ago, Hoo said:

That's a romance conflict.  Sansa pitted the throne conflict.  She swore to Jon not to tell, then turned around to cause revolt in the ranks -- to create a throne conflict.

And was there a throne conflict by the time Dany was in KL? After killing Varys and after Jon swore to her? It is absurd to claim that Sansa is to blame for what Dany chose to do.

6 hours ago, shameeka said:

That Sansa's to blame for the fact that Daenerys went insane and burned Kings Landing is so abuser logic. "Look what you made me do! You made me so mad that I just had to murder lots of innocent people!"

Exactly!

1 hour ago, Targaryen Peas said:

Oh you are right, it's not as if she crossed seas with foreign people to claim her throne, and then decided to save the realm costing her 2 dragsons and half her armies and loved ones. 

Saving the realm didn't cost her two dragons. She lost one in her pursuit for the Throne.

Now, love is a tricky thing. As Jaime said, we don't choose whom we love. Did Dany deserve the love? Yes. Did she get it? No. Was it fair? No. But those are the things that are not THAT simple. You see, Sansa doesn't like her, she and Arya don't even feel any loyalty to Dany, but they obeyed Jon when he drew a line. On the last iteration of this thread, someone spoke of how Dany never understood the dynamics of Stark family, because she always lived in authoritarian family unit. She had to obey Viserys, she had to obey Drogo, and later everyone had to obey her. But now she is dealing with a pack. With people who will voice their opinions and they will confront each other. Getting Jon's obedience, she expected the same in the North, but she didn't get it. And it wasn't just Sansa and Arya. 

The saddest part is that Dany chose what to do and she did it. She chose fear and unfortunately, I believe, she will find herself in situation where she'll understand that fear doesn't actually work all the time. 

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4 minutes ago, Risto said:

Now, love is a tricky thing. As Jaime said, we don't choose whom we love. Did Dany deserve the love? Yes. Did she get it? No. Was it fair? No. But those are the things that are not THAT simple. You see, Sansa doesn't like her, she and Arya don't even feel any loyalty to Dany, but they obeyed Jon when he drew a line.

The saddest part is that Dany chose what to do and she did it. She chose fear and unfortunately, I believe, she will find herself in situation where she'll understand that fear doesn't actually work all the time. 

You're still ignoring the whole fact that the north still owed her at least thanks and respect. 

Even if Sansa and Arya didn't like her, there's a whole line to cross between being cautious and causing harm. 

Anyways, Sansa ended up betraying her own "brother" 

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6 hours ago, shameeka said:

That Sansa's to blame for the fact that Daenerys went insane and burned Kings Landing is so abuser logic. "Look what you made me do! You made me so mad that I just had to murder lots of innocent people!"

As far as I understand the discussion here nobody argues like that.

But Sansa herself admitted (and proved it) that she learned quite a lot from Littlefinger. And who can ever forget Littlefinger´s main mantra:

"Chaos is a ladder!"?

When you hate and fear and disdain the queen, and you suddenly come to know that there is another, more rightful heir to the throne, who btw feels strongly connected to you and your family - then you can be sure that to spread this information will weaken the queen's position. Sansa knows enough about history in Westeros to know that whenever there are several heirs to the throne, there will be conflict and diverging interests and turmoil and, yes: Chaos.

And where there is chaos there will always be many opportunities for characters like Littlefinger and Sansa to take advantage from. 

So Sansa created chaos. Deliberately. Intentionally. Successfully.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Risto said:

No, she never pitted Jon against Dany. Jon's uprbinging did that. Simply, the moment he found out Dany is his aunt, the romance was over for him. That has nothing to do with Sansa.

Jon did far more damage to Dany than Sansa. It's his fault that Sam even knew in the first place because he send Sam to the Citadel. It's his fault that Dany doesn't have the throne earlier (just like it's Tyrion's fault) because he advised against attacking the Red Keep. It's his fault Dany lost Viserion. It's his fault for not breaking off the relationship immediately and stringing Dany along. In the last episode I had to facepalm so hard because the guy will never be able to read the room.

And lets not forget who is primarily responsible for Varys' death. Tyrion and Dany. Sansa only told one person (and she did NOT break any promises by doing so), Tyrion. Tyrion decided to share the information with Varys and then snitched on Varys. Dany is the one who killed Varys.

3 hours ago, Targaryen Peas said:

Oh you are right, it's not as if she crossed seas with foreign people to claim her throne, and then decided to save the realm costing her 2 dragsons and half her armies and loved ones.

Oh you mean cleaning up her OWN MESS from when she and her team decided on the balls to the wall stupidity that was the mission beyond the wall? Because that brought the wall down and the AotD into Westeros. The least she and hers can do is clean up that mess. Sorry, no points for Dany.

And for the record, the lack of agency people are giving Dany is beyond disturbing. It was Dany's decision and hers alone. No one MADE HER do anything. SHE decided. Geez next you thing you know, as someone said above already, people will start blaming an abused kid for the abuse instead of the abuser.

Dany, Jon, Bran and Tyrion. Those are the people most responsible for what happened, starting all the way back in at least S7 if not earlier (like in Bran's case). Sansa is at most a raindrop in the ocean compared to them.

Edited by Mystical

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Posted (edited)

Let's see..

Sansa was trained by Cersei to be ruthless, and by Littlefinger to be conniving. Ok, fine..

So does she uses either of those behind the scenes skills to take down Ramsay while he's abusing her? Nope. 

Sansa uses her skills to lie to Jon about her Vale army, even though she begged him to come and save Rickon. Whatever.

She nearly has Arya killed because she let Littefinger get in her head, and may have end up doing something awful if not for Bran's insider trader knowledge.

Sansa immediately disliked Daeny, even though Daeny was there to save her ungrateful ass from the NK, which she did. WF would have been immediately overrun and destroyed. So she...

I can't even do this anymore. You would think Sansa fans would be upset at the character assassination, but they aren't so why bother. 

 

Edited by tallTale

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I just wanted to chime in and say:

Thank you for all the Sansa threads.

I've been reading them for years, even though I haven't been active on the forum before now.

Show Sansa is interesting, but also a mess. She clearly has much unfulfilled potential that the writers just didn't bother to explore. 

I appreciate all the consideration the fans have shown her through all these years.

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11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yeah, I don't know why more Sansa fans aren't pissed at the writing. Maybe they don't care or notice that the show's only way of "showing" Sansa's intelligence was to throw every other character under the bus, but they've turned her into a petty and xenophobic Cersei/LF 2.0. You can't deny that they've presented her this way, even if her opinions have been validated.

She's just one more botched character, though she's escaped the worst.

I'm super pissed. And I've been pissed ever since they started butchering her character all the way back in Season 5 and had her raped instead of giving her her proper storyline.
And I'm finding it super laughable how she suddenly became pro-efficient in armour making and in food logistics for no apparent reason and how she suddenly became a staunch Northern Patriot to the point that she wants to declare independence form "those nasty dirty Southeners"

Her xenophobia is really even more laughable. Why does what Cersei did to her make her hate the South but what Ramsay did to her doesn't make her hate the North?

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4 hours ago, Targaryen Peas said:

You're still ignoring the whole fact that the north still owed her at least thanks and respect. 

Even if Sansa and Arya didn't like her, there's a whole line to cross between being cautious and causing harm. 

Anyways, Sansa ended up betraying her own "brother" 

They do. But being thankful and loving someone are two different things. Dany wanted North to bend the knee and she was open about it, They didn't want to bend the knee. Dany didn't fight Night KIng alone. They all did. Yes, they probably wouldn't survive without her (and then most likely, she wouldn't survive the NK's attack on the rest of Westeros) but does that warrant lifelong allegiance when you actually see a tyrant. Sansa asked Tyrion "Why her?" Tyrion sensed how worried Sansa is. He even asked her whether everything is OK. He ten told her that Jon will be in the capital and she knows that Dany knows about Jon. That immediately means Jon is not safe. Jon doesn't see it, but Sansa did. So, she told Tyrion. 

Can anyone make guarantees that Jon would be safe under Dany's rule? Of course not.

2 hours ago, tallTale said:

Let's see..

Sansa was trained by Cersei to be ruthless, and by Littlefinger to be conniving. Ok, fine..

And she has never been Cersei. In one episode we see Sansa worrying about the state of the army and Cersei using commonfolk as a human shield from Dany. I mean, they are the same, right :D

2 hours ago, tallTale said:

She nearly has Arya killed because she let Littefinger get in her head,

Unfortunately, we don't know this. We have Isaac's story and we can base it on that, but they cut that scene, since they wanted to show that sisters played LF right into a trap. Ludicrous, yes, but that is what the TV show's canon is.

2 hours ago, tallTale said:

You would think Sansa fans would be upset at the character assassination, but they aren't so why bother. 

The issue here is not Sansa's character assassination. It is the fact that she seems to be blamed for burning of half a million people.  That is the debate we are having right now. As absurd as it sounds.

2 hours ago, Vanadis said:

I just wanted to chime in and say:

Thank you for all the Sansa threads.

I've been reading them for years, even though I haven't been active on the forum before now.

Show Sansa is interesting, but also a mess. She clearly has much unfulfilled potential that the writers just didn't bother to explore. 

I appreciate all the consideration the fans have shown her through all these years.

Thank you... That is very kind...

That said, I agree. I wish we had seen a more natural progress into adulthood. I hope we'll read it one day.

2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

And I'm finding it super laughable how she suddenly became pro-efficient in armour making and in food logistics for no apparent reason and how she suddenly became a staunch Northern Patriot to the point that she wants to declare independence form "those nasty dirty Southeners"

Well, Sansa grew up as the first-born daughter of a High Lord. She was, in books, educated and told to excel in studies better than all other Stark kids (save the numbers). Overall, it is not too wild for her to be able to manage the castle and all its logistics like Catelyn was supposed to do after Ned left for KL. In books, she managed Eyrie for a short period. I wish it has been done more naturally, as they showed no learning curve there.

As for North, I always assumed that it is a personal thing. It is not about some patriotism, it is her own personal independence that she wants to claim. She doesn't want to be dependent of anyone and she sees Northern independence as part of it. I may be wrong, but I assumed that is some point they tried to make.

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1 minute ago, Risto said:

Well, Sansa grew up as the first-born daughter of a High Lord. She was, in books, educated and told to excel in studies better than all other Stark kids (save the numbers). Overall, it is not too wild for her to be able to manage the castle and all its logistics like Catelyn was supposed to do after Ned left for KL. In books, she managed Eyrie for a short period. I wish it has been done more naturally, as they showed no learning curve there.

In the books yes. I probably wasn't clear in how I wrote my message. I am disappointed that they removed her Vale plot where she would have had tthe possibility to hone, practice and/or acquire those skills. In the show it came out of nowhere. That plot would have also been the opportunity for her to realize she has sisterly feelings for Jon, like she does in the book, and for her to consciously decide that she wants to hold up her Stark name and heritage.

I'm disappointed we didn't get all that character growth. Instead it was Little Bird->Dark Sansa for 10 seconds ->Rape ->Super Sansa, Queen of the Norf.

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4 hours ago, tallTale said:

Let's see..

Sansa was trained by Cersei to be ruthless, and by Littlefinger to be conniving. Ok, fine..

So does she uses either of those behind the scenes skills to take down Ramsay while he's abusing her? Nope. 

Sansa uses her skills to lie to Jon about her Vale army, even though she begged him to come and save Rickon. Whatever.

She nearly has Arya killed because she let Littefinger get in her head, and may have end up doing something awful if not for Bran's insider trader knowledge.

Sansa immediately disliked Daeny, even though Daeny was there to save her ungrateful ass from the NK, which she did. WF would have been immediately overrun and destroyed. So she...

I can't even do this anymore. You would think Sansa fans would be upset at the character assassination, but they aren't so why bother. 

 

It's because she's winning.

 

I am a huge Sansa fan - at least in the books. I liked that she learned from Littlefinger and Cersei how to play the game of thrones, but to me she is no longer a Stark. Ned and Cat are probably rolling over in their graves on how she has no honor. They completely assassinate her character but no one cares because she's a Stark so she must win. 

 

Side note - I had a friend who loves Arya and told me "I was so worried she was going to die a lot of times when Danerys started burning the city but I was so happy she got out of it alive!" * facepalm *. 

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1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

In the books yes. I probably wasn't clear in how I wrote my message. I am disappointed that they removed her Vale plot where she would have had tthe possibility to hone, practice and/or acquire those skills. In the show it came out of nowhere. That plot would have also been the opportunity for her to realize she has sisterly feelings for Jon, like she does in the book, and for her to consciously decide that she wants to hold up her Stark name and heritage.

Isn't that the entire problem? They took Sansa away from her book plot because they loved Ramsey raping Jeyne more and felt it was more important than Sansa the character. And they chose Sansa instead of anyone else, probably to punish her for not sleeping with Tyrion. But like always, they didn't think. They had to get Sansa back to her book plot/arc/self somewhat and in the book Sansa is running the Eyrie quite effectively. Thing is, if they didn't want to do Sansa in the Vale, just give her S5 and most of S6 off. They clearly don't have a problem with that. Bran had S5 off. They also should have given Arya S6 off. Just have Sansa come in at the end of S6 to the Battle of the Bastards with the Vale army. And it's a brand new Sansa to boot. Yes it's cheap to develop her character off screen but what's the point of S5-6? If you cut those Seasons out, the transition from end of S4 Sansa to S7 Sansa makes sense. Just assume she did her book plot (minus Harry etc.) in S5-6 and it would fix so much.

2 hours ago, Risto said:

Unfortunately, we don't know this. We have Isaac's story and we can base it on that, but they cut that scene, since they wanted to show that sisters played LF right into a trap. Ludicrous, yes, but that is what the TV show's canon is.

I love how people use things from outside the show to justify their points. It's hilarious that people need to stoop that low just so they can hate. None of that was on screen. It was just one actors opinion on a scene that didn't even have context since it's as vague as 'Sansa comes to Bran and cut'. That's literally the scene. The rest is Isaac spitballing and nothing else. It supports nothing because it's without context and not part of actual canon.

Guess it hasn't occurred to some that the opposite could be the story. Sansa and Arya were working together much earlier. When they decided to spring their trap on LF, Sansa went to Bran for some details before the trial. That could be the story. And thanks to D&D and their incompetence, anything is possible. But hey, lets just chose one option only aka the one that ensures character hate. *rolls eyes*

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, madhikun said:

Side note - I had a friend who loves Arya and told me "I was so worried she was going to die a lot of times when Danerys started burning the city but I was so happy she got out of it alive!" * facepalm *.

Are you serious right now? Your friend is crazy because she wanted a character she likes to survive the burning of a genocidal maniac? :rolleyes:

26 minutes ago, madhikun said:

...but to me she is no longer a Stark. Ned and Cat are probably rolling over in their graves on how she has no honor.

What is a Stark? She is more Stark now than Ned ever was. Have you read up a little on the Starks? Ned is not a typical Stark because he was fostered somewhere else. So he was never a true Stark. The Starks are known for being cold and ruthless, not for being cuddly goodie-goodies.

And what's so great about honor? Ned's 'honor' prevented him from doing the right thing and it started the War of the 5 Kings. How many thousands died during that? Jon's 'honor' over the course of the show has now gotten well over a million people killed (depending on the population number of KL). But hey, so long as they are honorable who cares about the shit ton of people who died for their 'honor'. Honor is a bunch of BS and on this show, all it does it get people killed.

Edited by Mystical

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On 5/14/2019 at 11:05 PM, NonoNono said:

I have trouble seeing how the hand of the one who burned down KL can somehow become king. Will people magically know and believe he tried to stop her because it’s another point the writers couldn’t tie back to GRRM’s ending by actually leading to it? We’ll see.

Not to mention his last name.   The only folks with an actual claim are Jon, Dani and (kinda sorta) Gendry.  Everyone else wanting to take the throne would have to do so by killing the above and taking it like Robert did pre-show.  Neither Sansa or Tyrion have the power base behind them to make that happen in 80 minutes.  Maybe after years of scheming, but not in 80 minutes.  You may disagree with some of the writers choices, but these last few beats are based on an ending GRRM devised.

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2 hours ago, madhikun said:

I am a huge Sansa fan - at least in the books. I liked that she learned from Littlefinger and Cersei how to play the game of thrones, but to me she is no longer a Stark. Ned and Cat are probably rolling over in their graves on how she has no honor. They completely assassinate her character but no one cares because she's a Stark so she must win. 

Because every Stark is honorable? Catelyn released Jaime and betrayed Robb for the girls, much like Sansa told Tyrion the secret for Jon. People are seriously downplaying in what danger Jon has been ever since he has told Dany. Not only that, if we are to speak about honor, every other Starks - Jon, Arya and Bran, has done something dishonorable. Saying Sansa is the only one is truly wrong having in mind the entire family Stark's history, both TV show and the books.

4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

I'm disappointed we didn't get all that character growth. Instead it was Little Bird->Dark Sansa for 10 seconds ->Rape ->Super Sansa, Queen of the Norf.

That is true, but unfortunately, we have to work with what we have.

 

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Sansa is just a spoiled brat princess that who is on a power trip. I hope Dany teaches her a lesson about the consequences of breaking oaths.

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19 minutes ago, Areisius said:

Sansa is just a spoiled brat princess that who is on a power trip. I hope Dany teaches her a lesson about the consequences of breaking oaths.

Then she'll have to go after Jon also for breaking his NW oath by killing the Halfhand and getting it on with Ygritte who insisted they were married. You know, Ygritte who he fell for then betrayed for his NW brothers....

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Then she'll have to go after Jon also for breaking his NW oath by killing the Halfhand and getting it on with Ygritte who insisted they were married. You know, Ygritte who he fell for then betrayed for his NW brothers....

Jon killed Halfhand in self defense and had a fling with Ygritte. No oath was broken. Sansa swore an oath to Jon in front of Bran and Arya and she broke it not a day later to further her sabotage of Dany all because she is extremely jealous of her. 

Edited by Areisius

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9 hours ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

Maybe this'll be one of the spin-offs (or successor shows, as GRRM calls them). Everybody Blames Sansa.

Someone needs to make one of these generators for things that are Sansa's fault. It's so bad that even on reddit, people are replying to this sort of Sansa complaining with "ok, Jan". 

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