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Risto

Discussing Sansa - The Last One: Queen In The North!!!

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38 minutes ago, Areisius said:

Jon killed Halfhand in self defense and had a fling with Ygritte. No oath was broken. Sansa swore an oath to Jon in front of Bran and Arya and she broke it not a day later to further her sabotage of Dany all because she is extremely jealous of her. 

 

ASOS Jon XI

"I had a direwolf, Ghost. I left him when I climbed the Wall near Greyguard, and have not seen him since. Qhorin Halfhand commanded me to join the wildlings. He knew they would make me kill him to prove myself, and told me to do whatever they asked of me. The woman was named Ygritte. I broke my vows with her, but I swear to you on my father's name that I never turned my cloak."

 

 

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8 hours ago, Areisius said:

Jon killed Halfhand in self defense and had a fling with Ygritte. No oath was broken. Sansa swore an oath to Jon in front of Bran and Arya and she broke it not a day later to further her sabotage of Dany all because she is extremely jealous of her. 

No she hasn't. She promised Jon to keep secret what HE told her. But Jon didn't tell her squat, Bran revealed the truth. So unless the scene was extended in some airings for some people and Sansa swore to Bran also, she broke no oath. Also people really need to learn the difference between a promise and an oath.

And jealous of Dany? Where is the proof for that on screen?

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Posted (edited)

So...

- Lyanna asked Ned not only to keep a secret, but to tell a lie. 
- Ned did lie to Catelyn for years.
- Daenerys asked that Jon keep a secret even though it would probably mean something to Jon not to have to be viewed as just a bastard by his family.
- Jon revealed his secret even though he had decided that yes, Dany is his queen, and so he went against the order of his queen.
- Sansa told Tyrion even though she had sworn to keep the secret.
- Tyrion told Varys even though it was likely that someone might end up dead because of the secret.

All their actions can be justified on one level and criticized as selfish on another level. Perhaps except for Tyrion, it made no sense that he told Varys if he hadn't already switched sides.

But in this mix, I think Sansa is the least to blame.

Edited by Vanadis

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7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

ASOS Jon XI

 

"I had a direwolf, Ghost. I left him when I climbed the Wall near Greyguard, and have not seen him since. Qhorin Halfhand commanded me to join the wildlings. He knew they would make me kill him to prove myself, and told me to do whatever they asked of me. The woman was named Ygritte. I broke my vows with her, but I swear to you on my father's name that I never turned my cloak."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Context is everything. He never broke an oath out of contempt and hatred in his heart like Sansa. You can't compare them.

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15 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

So...

- Lyanna asked Ned not only to keep a secret, but to tell a lie. 
- Ned did lie to Catelyn for years.
- Daenerys asked that Jon keep a secret even though it would probably mean something to Jon not to have to be viewed as just a bastard by his family.
- Jon revealed his secret even though he had decided that yes, Dany is his queen, and so he went against the order of his queen.
- Sansa told Tyrion even though she had sworn to keep the secret.
- Tyrion told Varys even though it was likely that someone might end up dead because of the secret.

All their actions can be justified on one level and criticized as selfish on another level. Perhaps except for Tyrion, it made no sense that he told Varys if he hadn't already switched sides.

But in this mix, I think Sansa is the least to blame.

Saying Sansa is the least to blame is asinine. She literally starting the betrayal of Dany. 

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36 minutes ago, Mystical said:

No she hasn't. She promised Jon to keep secret what HE told her. But Jon didn't tell her squat, Bran revealed the truth. So unless the scene was extended in some airings for some people and Sansa swore to Bran also, she broke no oath. Also people really need to learn the difference between a promise and an oath.

And jealous of Dany? Where is the proof for that on screen?

She swore to Jon to keep it a secret period. Arya and Bran were witnesses to that. She was jealous the moment Dany arrived at Winterfell. 

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42 minutes ago, Areisius said:

Saying Sansa is the least to blame is asinine. She literally starting the betrayal of Dany. 

I could make a case of how the first person to betray Dany was her father, who divorced (?) his wife in secret (?) and married another woman in secret.

At least I'm sure princess Mary felt it as a betrayal when her father Henry VIII left her mother Catherine of Aragon for Anne Boleyn...

Sansa's argument was that she was worried about Jon. Perhaps she hated Daenerys. Perhaps she's playing the game. And the writers have certainly messed up her character to the point where it's hard to know how she really feels about anything. But I have no problems thinking that worrying about Jon was part of her reasons for revealing Jon's secret. 

I have more of a problem with Dany who demanded that the secret be kept in the first place, but I'm okay with it because Jon bent the knee to Dany. It was his duty to follow her command.
 

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3 hours ago, Vanadis said:

I could make a case of how the first person to betray Dany was her father, who divorced (?) his wife in secret (?) and married another woman in secret.

At least I'm sure princess Mary felt it as a betrayal when her father Henry VIII left her mother Catherine of Aragon for Anne Boleyn...

Sansa's argument was that she was worried about Jon. Perhaps she hated Daenerys. Perhaps she's playing the game. And the writers have certainly messed up her character to the point where it's hard to know how she really feels about anything. But I have no problems thinking that worrying about Jon was part of her reasons for revealing Jon's secret. 

I have more of a problem with Dany who demanded that the secret be kept in the first place, but I'm okay with it because Jon bent the knee to Dany. It was his duty to follow her command.
 

Sansa knew full well that Jon pledged his loyaity to Dany and she deliberately sabotaged that to turn people against Dany so that Jon would be forced to lay claim to the throne. Women can be very manipulative in their desire to get want they want and Sansa personifies this like Cersei did. 

 

Spreading lie planting mistrust to break apart alliances.

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3 minutes ago, Areisius said:

Sansa knew full well that Jon pledged his loyaity to Dany and she deliberately sabotaged that to turn people against Dany so that Jon would be forced to lay claim to the throne. Women can be very manipulative in their desire to get want they want and Sansa personifies this like Cersei did. 

 

Spreading lie planting mistrust to break apart alliances.

Now you're projecting an idea about how women can be onto Sansa, as if she's the embodiment of Woman.

"It makes sense for Jon to tell Sansa about his parentage, because men can be very manipulative. If he pushes his claim as a Targaryen ruler, he'll have to fight Dany and Drogon and probably will end up dead. But if he leaks it to someone else, he knows things will be set in motion on his behalf."

Now, I don't think this statement is true, simply because I don't think this is something that fits Jon's character.

But if we are unable to discuss what Sansa's character is, if we have to revert to "this is something women would do", then it only goes to show that Sansa's writing has been messed up for a very long time.

It used to be that the great thing about Game of Thrones was that it was all about the characters, and yes, some of them were women, but they were all people first. 

Until, like the original poster noted in the first post in this thread, it became apparent that Sansa's storyline was no longer about her, it became a tool to tell about the men in her life.

The real reason why Sansa told Jon's secret? Because the plot needed for Jon's secret to come out, so that it will affect him in some way.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Areisius said:

Context is everything. He never broke an oath out of contempt and hatred in his heart like Sansa. You can't compare them.

Sansa broke her oath because of the reasons she stated in the scene like Starks who go south tend to not come back, Tyrion was scared of Dany, Sansa knows how the Game of Thrones works and Jon is a rival to Dany if she won't marry him and share power, etc. If you want to change that to your own personal headcanon, that's on you. 

Adding, it's a huge thing to "not tell Sansa", Dany warned him what would happen if he told Sansa (and Arya), yet he did it anyhow even after Dany's threat, even when Sansa hedged on her promise. When Jon found out she told, he didn't react much. Maybe that's just moving the plot at the character's expense as they're wont to do, or Jon told because he kinda knew that something would come of that - essentially that Jon was also at a point where he wasn't comfortable with Dany being queen but he didn't know what to do about it. Look at that part of the scene where Jon and Dany were discussing telling in Winterfell. Dany threatened Jon about telling and Jon dropped his hands sharply from Dany meaning that even Jon understood Dany's threat. 

The title of the episode where Jon is resurrected and leaves the NW is "Oathbreaker". 

Sansa didn't technically break her oath as Tyrion guessed - but she led him to it, so it's sketchy. Jon didn't technically break his oath to the NW, but it's also really sketchy. Jon died which got him out, but we all know that oath meant it goes until true and permanent death. But one might say Jon broke the intent of his NW oath because of the "contempt and hatred in his heart" towards the NW members who murdered him. 

 

Edited by Lollygag

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6 hours ago, Areisius said:

Context is everything. He never broke an oath out of contempt and hatred in his heart like Sansa. You can't compare them.

Yes, because she broke hers to protect him. That much is clear from her conversation with Tyrion as Tyrion himself asked Sansa why she is worried. So, the show showed us that Sansa was worrying about Jon spending time so close to Dany in the South.

And we all know that Jon would have never been safe with Dany knowing his secret.

People really need to rewatch that scene.

2 hours ago, Areisius said:

Women can be very manipulative in their desire to get want they want and Sansa personifies this like Cersei did. 

I won't even deign to address the misogyny in your comment. But, what manipulative thing has Sansa did in terms of that secret? Tyrion is aware of Sansa's attentions and desires. Tyrion is aware that she probably knew he would tell someone, most likely Varys. She didn't manipulate Tyrion. He did everything on his own.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/17/2019 at 2:41 PM, Risto said:

Yes, because she broke hers to protect him. That much is clear from her conversation with Tyrion as Tyrion himself asked Sansa why she is worried. So, the show showed us that Sansa was worrying about Jon spending time so close to Dany in the South.

And we all know that Jon would have never been safe with Dany knowing his secret.

People really need to rewatch that scene.

I won't even deign to address the misogyny in your comment. But, what manipulative thing has Sansa did in terms of that secret? Tyrion is aware of Sansa's attentions and desires. Tyrion is aware that she probably knew he would tell someone, most likely Varys. She didn't manipulate Tyrion. He did everything on his own.

The truth doesn't make it misogynistic. lol. She broke her promise to start a rift between Dany and her advisors. How you didn't pick up on this is baffling.  

 

She is playing with fire and is going to get burned.

Edited by Areisius

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On 5/17/2019 at 9:41 PM, Risto said:

People really need to rewatch that scene.

Why bother? Canon constantly gets ignored if it gets in the way of character hate (or love). Sansa's reasons were stated on screen, as you mentioned, but since Sansa is evil none of her motives are true even when she says them outright. Also neither Dany, Jon or Tyrion did anything wrong at all...being fan favorites and all. Fandom logic in a nutshell.

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Wow the episode hasn't even aired and we're already elbow deep in Sansa hate.

Damn. 

 

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9 hours ago, Mystical said:

Why bother? Canon constantly gets ignored if it gets in the way of character hate (or love). Sansa's reasons were stated on screen, as you mentioned, but since Sansa is evil none of her motives are true even when she says them outright. Also neither Dany, Jon or Tyrion did anything wrong at all...being fan favorites and all. Fandom logic in a nutshell.

Sansa could've singlehandedly defeated the NK, saved King's Landing from being burned, ended world hunger, and bring a new era of peacefulness to Westeros and people would still call her an evil power hungry bitch.

so it goes.

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33 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Do anyone else love seeing Arya and Sansa being friends this season? Some of the warm moments I will treasure. :wub:

I do. After season 7, Arya and Sansa being friends and close siblings warms my heart.

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1 hour ago, Vanadis said:

Do anyone else love seeing Arya and Sansa being friends this season? Some of the warm moments I will treasure. :wub:

Are there deleted scenes I haven't seen? Sansa and Arya have not shared a scene this Season outside of group settings. And believe me I hate this. We spend 4 episodes in Winterfell and had all of one family scene. And we cut away from that before the real action started.

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3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Are there deleted scenes I haven't seen? Sansa and Arya have not shared a scene this Season outside of group settings. And believe me I hate this. We spend 4 episodes in Winterfell and had all of one family scene. And we cut away from that before the real action started.

There's a scene where Arya wants Sansa to go to the crypts, but Sansa is reluctant. The way I viewed it, they really cared about each other in that scene, and Sansa finally left so that Arya would have one thing less to worry about.

Then there's the scenes where they seem to support each other during meetings. They stand close to each other, and seem to be in agreement about what is the best course forward.

With all the conflict between them the last season, I think this is a nice touch. They've grown closer.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

There's a scene where Arya wants Sansa to go to the crypts, but Sansa is reluctant. The way I viewed it, they really cared about each other in that scene, and Sansa finally left so that Arya would have one thing less to worry about.

Then there's the scenes where they seem to support each other during meetings. They stand close to each other, and seem to be in agreement about what is the best course forward.

With all the conflict between them the last season, I think this is a nice touch. They've grown closer.

That's not really enough for me, especially after the crap that was their S7 storyline. Yes those are nice but I we haven't seen them growing closer. Not all the issues last Season were brought on by LF and those never got resolved. Also, where was the goodbye scene? We finally get the Stark family together, Arya says 'we are family' and then they suddenly all split up and no goodbyes. Arya doesn't plan to return to WF. Where was the goodbye scene for the sisters?

The family also didn't spend their possible last night on earth together (in 8x03), it's like the family didn't exist all Season except in one scene. Even though they were the only intact family we had left on the show. Thousand scenes of the Lannister brothers but they can't bother with Starks. D&D suck.

Edited by Mystical

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