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Discussing Sansa - The Last One: Queen In The North!!!

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9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa's heirs are heirs to the North. They've already decided that the new monarchs in the South are elected in Counsels. 

Based upon their thousands of years of history and the connection to real life, it will be a tinderbox waiting to ignite.

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13 minutes ago, Ser Davos' Finger Nubs said:

Sansa has basically been a prisoner this entire series, has the gall to tell her uncle to sit down during his pitch for King (of course that was ridiculous in the first place but who the hell is she to tell him to sit down?), has the authority to declare the North independent and everyone accepts without question, gets named Queen in the North even though she has no military experience whatsoever and has committed treason, then has the balls to agree to send Jon to the wall after everything he has done for her. Yeah, not a fan.

 

She is the Lady of Winterfell and Edmure's liege lord to tell him to sit down? Which she did rather gently and with a smile.

The fact that other accepted the independence of The North is baffling but, that is hardly Sansa's fault. In fact she just got freedom for her people. The Queen does not need any military experience, why would you think she would? Her treason is up for debate and even if it was that, it was to put a Northern King on the throne - again hardly a sin in this context.

Jon can walk right back to The Sovereign Kingdom of the North at the any time of his choosing as you may well know, the Kings - which she now is - can offer pardons. That whole thing was a trick to get the dickhead and his idiot frens off to boats to sail to the islands where they will die in hours due to being too stupid.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Ser Davos' Finger Nubs said:

Sansa has basically been a prisoner this entire series, has the gall to tell her uncle to sit down during his pitch for King (of course that was ridiculous in the first place but who the hell is she to tell him to sit down?), has the authority to declare the North independent and everyone accepts without question, gets named Queen in the North even though she has no military experience whatsoever and has committed treason, then has the balls to agree to send Jon to the wall after everything he has done for her. Yeah, not a fan.

 

Yeah, it makes no sense... Jon, the current king was still alive, and Bran was his heir...

3 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

She is the Lady of Winterfell and Edmure's liege lord to tell him to sit down? Which she did rather gently and with a smile.

Jon, the King of the North is his liege lord. Sansa was still the Lady of Winterfell, not the Queen of the North...

 

Edited by Ser Lepus

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23 hours ago, rayarts said:

Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell and will be. She is now deeply rooted there and will protect the North‘s interests no matter what. 

 

Actually - Dany was convinced and ready to do anything to get the IT and Sansa is exactly as convinced and stubborn and pledges her entire being into one goal, to secure WF and the North. The two of them have different agendas, one an offensive and the other a defensive, but they are equally set onto achieving this.

Told ya all yesterday. Sansa is so deeply rooted in the North, she actually got the pattern of the Weirwood tree sawn into her dress. :) 

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Sansa:

Quote

The northmen are tired of kneeling

A few scenes later, she walks among rows of northmen kneeling in front of her as she is coronated 

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3 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

Yeah, it makes no sense... Jon, the current king was still alive, and Bran was his heir...

Jon, the King of the North is his liege lord. Sansa was still the Lady of Winterfell, not the Queen of the North...

 

Jon hadn't been King for a long time. Like Little Lyanna Mormont put it: I don't know what you are.

The North was all Sansa's well before Jon came back and even more so after he did. I realize people hate her and don't want to see it, but that's how it played in the show. She played and she won. DWI :)

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4 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Based upon their thousands of years of history and the connection to real life, it will be a tinderbox waiting to ignite.

That's all of Westeros, not just the Starks. And it's the Southerners who have a worse track record by far in this regard. Worry about them.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Jon hadn't been King for a long time. Like Little Lyanna Mormont put it: I don't know what you are.

Nope. Either Jon was still Edmure's liege, or Daenerys became Edmure's liege. Jon never abdicated in favour of Sansa, and Edmure never bent the knee to Sansa.

Sansa and Edmure were equals to each other, during the council, vassals to Jon.

10 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

The North was all Sansa's well before Jon came back and even more so after he did. I realize people hate her and don't want to see it, but that's how it played in the show. She played and she won. DWI :)

So all that talk about Jon being super popular among his men, and being a better king candidate than Dany because of that was all bullshit? Somebody should have told Dany...

Edited by Ser Lepus

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Based upon their thousands of years of history and the connection to real life, it will be a tinderbox waiting to ignite.

Not for a couple of reigns or so.  As I commented elsewhere on the forum, Sansa is going to have at least 4 or 5 healthy children and at least 2 will be sons.  They will be well educated in all they need to know, loyal to the North, good at making money and at fighting. Who will they be fighting is just as an important a question as who will be their father -- somebody neither she, as far as we know, or we know, of course, and never will know.

But the point is, that judging by historical examples in our world, the electors will pick without argument when Bran goes all treeish (can he die then? I dunno), they will pick unanimously one of Sansa's sons, who will be at least half Stark.  Later Starks will use bribery and pressures of different sorts to keep their own heirs elected king of the 6 kingdoms.  Maybe this works for two - three reigns.  THEN hell breaks loose, probably.

In the meantime the Starks will be marrying into all the Houses, and the Houses will be marrying whenever they can into Stark. It's not impossible that this will lead eventually to all the 7 kingdoms becoming 1 kingdom again, but it will be ruled by Stark.

 

 

Edited by Zorral

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3 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

Nope. Either Jon was still Edmure's liege, or Daenerys became Edmure's liege. Jon never abdicated, and Edmure never bent the knee to Sansa.

Sansa and Edmure were equals to each other, during the council, vassals to Jon.

So all that talk about Jon being super popular among his men, and being a better king candidate than Dany because of that was all bullshit? Somebody should have told Dany...

Yes they should have. Did you pay attention to the last season when Jon was gone? They were talking about having made the wrong choice.

It's ok. We don't have to like everything in the story. I think the ending for Sam is ridiculous and I have no words for Bronn etc. But that's how it ended. Sansa played - first to get Jon to be the King and then after that was no longer on the table to get an independent North. And she won.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Not for a couple of reigns or so.  As I commented elsewhere on the forum, Sansa is going to have at least 4 or 5 healthy children and at least 2 will be sons.  They will be well educated in all they need to know, loyal to the North, good at making money and at fighting. Who will they be fighting is just as an important a question as who will be their father -- somebody neither she, as far as we know, or we know, of course, and never will know.

But the point is, that judging by historical examples in our world, the electors will pick without argument when Bran goes all treeish (can he die then? I dunno), they will pick unanimously one of Sansa's sons, who will be at least half Stark.  Later Starks will use bribery and pressures of different sorts to keep their own heirs elected king of the 6 kingdoms.  Maybe this works for two - three reigns.  THEN hell breaks loose, probably.

In the meantime the Starks will be marrying into all the Houses, and the Houses will be marrying whenever they can into Stark. It's not impossible that this will lead eventually to all the 7 kingdoms becoming 1 kingdom again, but it will be ruled by Stark.

 

 

Nope. The North is a different country now... why would the Greater Lords of the Six Kingdoms pick the son of a foreign monarch over one of their own?

5 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Yes they should have. Did you pay attention to the last season when Jon was gone? They were talking about having made the wrong choice.

And then they saw him riding a dragon and burning wights and they were all drooling over him again...

 

Edited by Ser Lepus

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7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Not for a couple of reigns or so.  As I commented elsewhere on the forum, Sansa is going to have at least 4 or 5 healthy children and at least 2 will be sons.  They will be well educated in all they need to know, loyal to the North, good at making money and at fighting. Who will they be fighting is just as an important a question as who will be their father -- somebody neither she, as far as we know, or we know, of course, and never will know.

But the point is, that judging by historical examples in our world, the electors will pick without argument when Bran goes all treeish (can he die then? I dunno), they will pick unanimously one of Sansa's sons, who will be at least half Stark.  Later Starks will use bribery and pressures of different sorts to keep their own heirs elected king of the 6 kingdoms.  Maybe this works for two - three reigns.  THEN hell breaks loose, probably.

In the meantime the Starks will be marrying into all the Houses, and the Houses will be marrying whenever they can into Stark. It's not impossible that this will lead eventually to all the 7 kingdoms becoming 1 kingdom again, but it will be ruled by Stark.

 

 

Bran is the last Stark King in the six kingdoms. Even that is a bit weird but that's how it ended.

The next kings will be chosen from Lords and Ladies the six kingdoms, while the North will go on in a more traditional way - Sansa's heir will be the King of the North.

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3 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

And then they saw him riding a dragon and burning wights and they were all drooling over him again...

Again, the timeline. I am starting to think that there is nothing that would ever change your mind about Sansa being just all around terrible, so agree to disagree is probably the best we can manage.

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21 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

She is the Lady of Winterfell and Edmure's liege lord to tell him to sit down? Which she did rather gently and with a smile.

The fact that other accepted the independence of The North is baffling but, that is hardly Sansa's fault. In fact she just got freedom for her people. The Queen does not need any military experience, why would you think she would? Her treason is up for debate and even if it was that, it was to put a Northern King on the throne - again hardly a sin in this context.

Jon can walk right back to The Sovereign Kingdom of the North at the any time of his choosing as you may well know, the Kings - which she now is - can offer pardons. That whole thing was a trick to get the dickhead and his idiot frens off to boats to sail to the islands where they will die in hours due to being too stupid.

1. He is still her uncle and that was rude IMO and 2. Edmure was Lord of Riverrun no? So his liege lord wouldn't be someone from Winterfell would it? Maybe I am misunderstanding..The writing was just dreadful to be honest. I thought Jon or at least Bran (if he is willing and able to be King he should be able to LoW) was Lord of Winterfell at that time anytime.

 

In regards to military experience, it is not an absolutely necessity for a Queen to have but what qualifications does Sansa have to be QotN? Being held hostage? Backstabbing her family?  Seems like she just got that position because of her last name. 

 

And I just wish the treason was consistent - Varys gets burned for treason, Tyrion gets named Hand for treason, Jon gets sent to the wall for treason, Sansa gets to be Queen for treason... zero logic anywhere.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Sansa's heir will be the King of the North.

But she will have more than one son. See above.

When it is an elector system this is done all the time.  The daughter of King James I, known as the Winter Queen, married Frederick V, the Elector of the  Palatinate, who was invited by Bohemia to become King of Bohemia.  The Polish-Lithuanian Magistrates invited outsiders to be their king, such as the younger son of King Louis XV of France.

The idea is that it keeps anyone from the inside of the state from overpowering the others, while the king, an outsider, won't overpower any of them.  Ultimately this system breaks down, as we've seen from history frequently. In fact it ended up with Poland being entirely erased as a nation and divided up among Prussia, Russia and Austria.

Those are just two examples.

 

Edited by Zorral

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2 minutes ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

Again, the timeline. I am starting to think that there is nothing that would ever change your mind about Sansa being just all around terrible, so agree to disagree is probably the best we can manage.

It's not a matter of Sansa being terrible or not... it's a matter of who holds what tittle... Sansa may be popular, but she was not the queen of the North, she was not Edmure's liege, and she was not ahead of Bran in the line of sucession...

I guess the North has become like Dorne, where some bastard mistress of a brother of the king seized the throne after committing regicide. Sansa just pretended that Jon was dead and that Bran wasn't his heir, everybody ran with it...

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Posted (edited)

A lot of houses in Westeros have no sons or only one son because of few children born, obligations (KG in the case of Jaime), accident or war. 

Stark: no male heirs

Tully: one son

Whent: no heirs

Arryn: one son

Lannister: one son Tyrion, Jaime in the KG then dead

Baratheon - wiped out until Gendry

Targaryen: one son survived

Tarth: no male heirs

Martell: one female, one male left. 

Karstark: no male heirs

Greyjoy: no male heirs

 

Edited by Lollygag

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4 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

It's not a matter of Sansa being terrible or not... it's a matter of who holds what tittle... Sansa may be popular, but she was not the queen of the North, she was not Edmure's liege, and she was not ahead of Bran in the line of sucession...

I guess the North has become like Dorne, where some bastard mistress of a brother of the king seized the throne after committing regicide. Sansa just pretended that Jon was dead and that Bran wasn't his heir, everybody ran with it...

Sansa has charisma, and Edmure has none.  Very telling when it comes to leadership and getting what one wants.  And you are needlessly mistaken and mean about Sansa,

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Sansa has charisma, and Edmure has none.  Very telling when it comes to leadership and getting what one wants. 

 

So what? If the president of France has more charisma than the president of Italy, the president of France becomes able to rule Italy?

Sansa has not authority over Edmure, period. And people should have objected over her disregard of Jon's and Bran's authority and rights...

Even if Sansa were able to pull a coup and take power in the North... none of the lords in that council were from the North, save Bran, Arya and Sansa (why was Arya even there? she held no title...). Why would they care about Sansa's popularity back in the North? Why didn't they say anything?

Edited by Ser Lepus

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