Thank you GRRM for the forensic deconstruction of Dany

[Ser Hedge]

22 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

In season 2, the only thing the show really has in common with canon is that Dany goes to Qarth and leaves Qarth. What Dany does there, and even the ancient city itself, is completely different in the show.

This is a fascinating point. You have to wonder if the writers being aware of her ultimate arc tried to make her worse than in the books in that episode, but the show version of her character's subsequent popularity made them switch to go into full fan service mode instead? (With a few exceptions, but always reverting to fan service mode which lasts several episodes or an entire season before another incident)

19 hours ago, Maia said:

Yea, but I have finally seen bits of that interview of GRRM's, where he hints that people shouldn't be naming their daughters after Dany

Wowsa, obviously hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but that should have been the mother of all spoilers! But I guess a few had picked up on that and other interviews and concluded which way the story was headed. 

[Loge]

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Hmm... should we assume GRRM also meant for us to view Robb as a villain then? He was another charismatic populist figure.

He may have been a reluctant player but he did play the Game of Thrones, and there are no good guys in that game. 

[Maia]

24 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Wowsa, obviously hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but that should have been the mother of all spoilers! But I guess a few had picked up on that and other interviews and concluded which way the story was headed. 

Yea, I have always thought that these theories were based just on Jon/Stark favoritism and never believed that GRRM would go for the bundle of problematic tropes inherent in this direction, particularly not with him making Cersei a "mad queen" too and giving us her PoV. Not to mention all the trolling about female heirs being shafted in WoIaF and FaB, when he apparently intended to prove the bigots right the whole time. Shows what I know, I guess.

Found it! It is in the Nerdrotic Review of the episode 5, in the very beginning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFCj1Izgxpw

[Lion of the West]

Sucks that Danaerys, if this is the end we'll get, is going down but then again I like tragedies (big fan of Greek heroes for instance) that don't end with "lived happily ever after and all the ills of the world went away" endings so pandemic in fantasy (or it was when I started to switch to historical fiction and history for my reading). 

I've seen that some posters have claimed that Danaerys not gaining the Iron Throne would prove something about women ruling, which I don't find very convincing. In my opinmion Danaerys proved something about women ruling is that there are not enough women ruling. Danaerys has done lots of good stuff, like in giving the Slaver's Bay a kicking and even if she has not changed the whole continent like a Messiah she has still done a great deal much; like she brought justice down on many slavers, she destroyed the Lannisters' grip on power (even if I dislike this part) and so enabled the next reign to take hold, she brought thousands of people out of slavery and most importatly showed that you can fight back against slavery, and that women are just as capable as men holding power. That's what I can think of and I think that's a pretty impressive record with the time that was allotted to her, and I think that she will managed even more in the books.

If I can like Tywin despite the aweful things he's done I see no problem with admiring Danaerys for all the good things she's done even if she has done some bad things at the end.

My point is that I don't see why women can't be tragic heroes in the Greek sense and reach great heights before hybris overtakes them, as it does men, and why only their fall would be of interest. [Hyperbole] Danaerys should still be a hero even if she isn't a perfect pristine princess that seems to be the only thing acceptable for a woman with power to many.[/Hyperbole]

[BalerionTheCat]

On 5/18/2019 at 11:01 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Hmm... should we assume GRRM also meant for us to view Robb as a villain then? He was another charismatic populist figure.

Robb was king not because the Northmen liked him. They made him king with the mission to rid them of the southern kings. He fucked the job by betraying his allies. So he got what he deserved. Like for Ned, you pay your errors the full price.

[tws1978]

On 5/15/2019 at 4:05 PM, Arakan said:

This is NOT the same road. Scenario one can and will be justified as tragic but military necessity and colletaral damage. Scenario two is a full blown massacre. A total and deliberate butchery. 

This is the difference between bombing Hamburg in WW2 and going full Nanking.

GRRM deliberately chose scenario 2, DD executed it in visual form. Those who don’t want to believe it live in denial.  

I seriously doubt that. I think this is D&D´s invention. I have no doubt GRRM has plans for Dany to turn bad or atleast problematic when she starts to conquer KL, especially when her enemy isn´t Cersei but the new and popular king Aegon the fake. But I would bet it will be much more nuanced than Dany just going "F*ck it" and torching the city for no reason for 30 minutes while zigzagging and trying to hit as much people as possible as if she is playing some weird videogame. This was fully D&D. I think they realized Dany is too popular so burning Tarlys or even having a massive collateral damage while conquering the city will no be enough for people to turns again her. And that has to happen so Jon is still seen as hero even after what happens in episode 6. So they just went "to hell with subtlety" and wrote the scene so it´s 110 percent clear she is evil now.

If they really cared about GRRM´s vision they would make it much more personal and focused on Dany´s descend. Instead she is not seen at all after the bells sounds and the fire hell seems more like natural catastrophy (or cut scenes from the Kit´s Pompeye movie). And it even goes boring after a while, when the same kind of scenes repeat again and again. 

 

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, tws1978 said:

I seriously doubt that. I think this is D&D´s invention. I have no doubt GRRM has plans for Dany to turn bad or atleast problematic when she starts to conquer KL, especially when her enemy isn´t Cersei but the new and popular king Aegon the fake. But I would bet it will be much more nuanced than Dany just going "F*ck it" and torching the city for no reason for 30 minutes while zigzagging and trying to hit as much people as possible as if she is playing some weird videogame. This was fully D&D.

I agree. 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 5/18/2019 at 5:31 PM, Ser Hedge said:

This is a fascinating point. You have to wonder if the writers being aware of her ultimate arc tried to make her worse than in the books in that episode, but the show version of her character's subsequent popularity made them switch to go into full fan service mode instead? (With a few exceptions, but always reverting to fan service mode which lasts several episodes or an entire season before another incident)

I thought they changed it to add more drama to the show. Dany's CoTK arc is boring from a TV/movie point of view. It's all about her exploring a city, looking at things, and talking to Xaro and other characters. That doesn't really make good television. The most important part of her arc is the House of Undying prophesies. I think this was when the showrunners decided to completely forgo the mystical elements in the show. They completely changed her visions, the Undying are different, and the pale creature thing is missing. The show version has a city coup, betrayal, which were more in line with the Game of Thrones brand popularized by season 1. 

I'm not sure if they made these changes to to line with GRRM's vision. Because I think this was when the two parties started arguing about such differences. GRRM was even irritated by a very minor change they made to one of Dany's bloodriders (he died). 

If the show was going to deliver "fan service," wouldn't they have made Dany's arc a lot nicer? I mean incorporated more compassionate acts she does in the books, but are kinda missing from the show? Her kindness toward the diseased people in Meereen comes to mind. But that whole part was missing, probably bc the showrunners didn't want to go into her getting the Pale Mare and all that. 

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I thought they changed it to add more drama to the show. Dany's CoTK arc is boring from a TV/movie point of view. It's all about her exploring a city, looking at things, and talking to Xaro and other characters. That doesn't really make good television. The most important part of her arc is the House of Undying prophesies. I think this was when the showrunners decided to completely forgo the mystical elements in the show. They completely changed her visions, the Undying are different, and the pale creature thing is missing. The show version has a city coup, betrayal, which were more in line with the Game of Thrones brand popularized by season 1. 

I'm not sure if they made these changes to to line with GRRM's vision. Because I think this was when the two parties started arguing about such differences. GRRM was even irritated by a very minor change they made to one of Dany's bloodriders (he died). 

If the show was going to deliver "fan service," wouldn't they have made Dany's arc a lot nicer? I mean incorporated more compassionate acts she does in the books, but are kinda missing from the show? Her kindness toward the diseased people in Meereen comes to mind. But that whole part was missing, probably bc the showrunners didn't want to go into her getting the Pale Mare and all that. 

Dany in the books is a lot more likeable than in the Show.

[OldGimletEye]

On 5/18/2019 at 4:08 AM, SeanF said:

I don't think Dany will do this to Kings Landing in the books.

But Volantis, or Pentos, or other places that stand in the way of her ride Westward, and offer defiance? I've no doubt that she will open the gates of hell to such cities.

I think her campaigns in Essos will likely will tell us whether her actions at KL were surprising or not.

I admit to being somewhat surprised by her actions with respect to KL. But, in the books, it may not be surprising if we see her get progressively more ruthless.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think her campaigns in Essos will likely will tell us whether her actions at KL were surprising or not.

I admit to being somewhat surprised by her actions with respect to KL. But, in the books, it may not be surprising if we see her get progressively more ruthless.

I don't see how her campaigns in Essos could be anything other than horrible.  She'll have Dothraki, sellswords and Ironborn, and her commanders and advisers will be Daario, Victarion, Bennero, the Shavepate and Tyrion, all of whom will be urging her to turn up the cruelty.  Tyrion as depicted in the books is an utterly different character to Tyrion in the show.   Book Tyrion would have been delighted to see Kings Landing burned to ashes, just so long as he got the chance to rape and murder Cersei beforehand.

[OldGimletEye]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I don't see how her campaigns in Essos could be anything other than horrible.  

I have no doubt they will. But, I think her thought processes as she encounters various issues, will tell us a lot.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

49 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany in the books is a lot more likeable than in the Show.

Yes. That's the point I was making. Also, I read in Vanity Fair that GRRM told D&D the ending to the show between seasons 3 and 4. That would be about the time the show started outpacing the books. But Dany is portrayed as bad even back in season 2. I mean her locking up Xaro and Doreah in that locker and ordering her dragons to burn Pyat Pree (scenes missing in the books). 

The snowgate has returned. In Dany's visions at the House of Undying in the show shows the Iron Throne room with the roof blasted off and white powder falling down. Fans debated whether the white powder is snow or ash. Post the penultimate episode, one of the previous episode directors tweeted that it was ash. But the show scripts published in Vanity Fair clearly states that the it's snow on the throne (get it, snow on the throne?)

So they must have come up with bad Dany "twist" later after her Meereen arc. Now the ultimate point of the story seems like DNA is destiny. 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Yes. That's the point I was making. Also, I read in Vanity Fair that GRRM told D&D the ending to the show between seasons 3 and 4. That would be about the time the show started outpacing the books. But Dany is portrayed as bad even back in season 2. I mean her locking up Xaro and Doreah in that locker and ordering her dragons to burn Pyat Pree (scenes missing in the books). 

The snowgate has returned. In Dany's visions at the House of Undying in the show shows the Iron Throne room with the roof blasted off and white powder falling down. Fans debated whether the white powder is snow or ash. Post the penultimate episode, one of the previous episode directors tweeted that it was ash. But the show scripts published in Vanity Fair clearly states that the it's snow on the throne (get it, snow on the throne?)

So they must have come up with bad Dany "twist" later after her Meereen arc. Now the ultimate point of the story seems like DNA is destiny. 

In my view, burning Pyat Pree was legitimate self-defence.

Xharo and Doreah were traitors, but it was undoubtedly a horrible way to kill them (and set to really triumphant music).  But, much of that plot was absurd.  Doreah went from being her best friend in one episode, whose relationship with Dany was almost romantic, to betraying her the next, for no good reason.

[The Sunland Lord]

On 5/15/2019 at 12:26 PM, Arakan said:

The outcry across the Internet is huge. One of the most beloved, most admired characters of GOT and ASOIAF seemingly went „mad“. She butchered, for all of us to see, tens of thousands of women and children. Not out of „military necessity“, the enemy had already surrendered, but out of reasons which are discussed in other places here on this forum. For many this is a huge disservice for a beloved, “badass“ „feminist“ hero. For others like me this is just the logical culmination of the path she had taken since 2000, since the release of ASOS. Well, be it as it be. 

I have to thank GRRM for this very important deconstruction. And no one will convince me that GRRM won’t play this out in similar fashion in the books. There is no rational reason to assume that the KL genocide (yes we have to call it this) was a show invention. This is GRRM all along. 

And we ALL should be thankful to him because he teaches us a very important lesson. A lesson humankind so often forgets. Don’t be blended by „great“ leaders. Don’t be blended by their supposed grandiosity, by their rhetoric of being the „chosen one“, by their supposed „strength“. 

I sympathize with the feelings of many Dany fans. I really do. They are confronted with a massive massive cognitive dissonance. This is hurtful. But only when we reach our own limits and grow beyond them we really learn. 

We are all fascinated (at least) by those „grand leaders“, often we admire them, even love them. And we try our best to ignore their dark sides, their psychopathic and sociopathic and narcissistic personality traits. Their fanatism. The list is long. From Alexander „the Great“ to Charles“lemagne“ to Ghengis Khan to Napoleon to Hitler to Stalin. Not all of them are admired, at least not openly, but even this is not a given. Stalin gets more and more rehabilitated and even Hitler still has millions upon millions of admirers in all parts of the world, for their own reasons. 

Leaders like Trump (admired by millions of Americans) or Putin (who is admired by millions of Germans) show us that even in the „information age“ we are not immune to falling into the traps. Charisma is a dangerous dangerous thing. 

And therefore, once again, thank you GRRM for holding the mirror right in our faces and confronting us with our own dark desires. 

Yeah, like it or not, I don't see Daenerys in Martin's story not going totally mad after this. One can complain about how fast it was done, or the way it was done in the show, but I'm positive this is her ending.

[Ser Hedge]

5 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I thought they changed it to add more drama to the show. Dany's CoTK arc is boring from a TV/movie point of view. It's all about her exploring a city, looking at things, and talking to Xaro and other characters. That doesn't really make good television. The most important part of her arc is the House of Undying prophesies. I think this was when the showrunners decided to completely forgo the mystical elements in the show. They completely changed her visions, the Undying are different, and the pale creature thing is missing. The show version has a city coup, betrayal, which were more in line with the Game of Thrones brand popularized by season 1. 

Agree with you there. Now you mention it, Qarth in the books was really just a travelogue + the visions in the HotU. And as you and @SeanF point out, it was a pointless butchery of Dorea's character who actually died in the Red Waste and was mourned by Dany. And now we have all these posters point out that this and other similar show 'innovation' was evidence of her madness and since the books 'will' have the exact 'same' ending, it's all GRRM's fault, so there. They must think we are all idiots.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The George doesn't have to turn Daenerys into a monster to kill her off, and have Jon survive. Daenerys's dancing partner in the Second Dance of the Dragons will be Aegon, not Jon.