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Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18


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"How  many men did you lose?" Theon asked Red Helm as he dismounted.

"Twenty or thirty." The torchlight glittered off the chipped enamel of his visor. His helm and gorget were wrought in the shape of a man's face and shoulders, skinless and bloody, mouth open in a silent howl of anguish.

"Ser Rodrik had you five-to-one."

"Aye, but he thought us friends. A common mistake. When the old fool gave me his hand, I too k half his arm instead. Then I let him see my face."

 

 

Is Ramsay talking about Theon?

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ASOS prologue, Cressen trying to poison Mel.

Cressen uses Davos´ cup of wine, which has been standing for a while, meaning there´s little to no turbulence in it from the pouring. Crystals take time to dissolve.

Assuming the crystals of strangler sink, they´ll dissolve in the bottom of the cup and stay there, so when Mel drinks "long and deep" (deliberately slowly and carefully?), there´s no, or only a small fraction of poison in her part of the glass and all of it for Cressen in the "half a swallow of wine" left.

Just a potential non-magical way for Mel to survive, bearing on her knowing he was going to poison her (by his weird actions, not a stretch) and her understanding the poison he´s using (not at all a stretch given that: "Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai'i gave the leaf.").

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20 hours ago, McGuv19 said:

I just read Fire and Blood part one and i realised that Maidenpool is named after Jonquil’s Pool. (The ‘maidens pool’)

ASOS, Jaime III:

"At Maidenpool, Lord Mooton's red salmon still flew above the castle on its hill, but the town walls were deserted, the gates smashed, half the homes and shops burned or plundered. They saw nothing living but a few feral dogs that went slinking away at the sound of their approach. The pool from which the town took its name, where legend said that Florian the Fool had first glimpsed Jonquil bathing with her sisters, was so choked with rotting corpses that the water had turned into a murky grey-green soup.

 
Jaime took one look and burst into song. "Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool . . ."
 
"What are you doing?" Brienne demanded.""
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On 8/9/2019 at 11:17 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

A gust of wind sent icy tendrils wending through his long brown hair.  (Jon IX, ASoS 69)

What! I never even realized there was a mention of the length of his hair.

I just default imagine everyone with long hair unless otherwise stated on page. Seems to be the norm for men and women in Westeros circa 300 AC. Woman probably wear their hair longer than men's, by the way it is described in the books, and noblewomen usually waer it tied up, braided and styled. Truly short hair like we see sported by most men today seems to be rare... For men, hair that is shoulder lenght and worn loose seems to be the norm. Some evidence in the next post.

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Men with long hair in the story:

Ned: Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. AGOT, Bran I

Renly: tall and powerfully made, with jet-black hair that fell to his shoulders and framed a clean-shaven face, AGOT, Sansa I

Tommen: Arya was paired with plump young Tommen, whose white-blond hair was longer than hers. AGOT, Jon I

Tyrek Lannister: One [squire] was Sansa's age, with long golden curls. AGOT, Eddard VII

Ramsay Bolton: Ser Rodrik returned to Winterfell with his prisoner, a fleshy young man with fat moist lips and long hair who smelled like a privy, even worse than Alebelly had. "Reek, he's called," ACOK, Bran I

Barristan: Long white hair fell to his shoulders, and a silky white beard covered the lower half of his face. ACOK, Daenerys V

Addam Marbrand: Ser Addam Marbrand was the first of the captains to depart, a day before the rest. He made a gallant show of it, riding a spirited red courser whose mane was the same copper color as the long hair that streamed past Ser Addam's shoulders. ACOK Arya VIII

Jaime: "The realm knows Jaime Lannister as a beardless knight with long golden hair." ASOS, Jaime I

Robb Stark: He had shaved his beard away, but his auburn hair fell uncut to his shoulders. ASOS, Catelyn II

Lothar Frey: Lothar Frey had close-set eyes, a pointed beard, and dark hair that fell to his shoulders in ringlets. ASOS, Catelyn IV

Rhaegar: And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. ASOS, Jaime VI

Northmen: The captors and the captives looked much alike; big men, every one, with thick beards and long hair. ASOS, Catelyn III

Lannister prisioner to Robb Stark: His long golden hair was still wet, as if he had been pulled from a bath. ASOS, Catelyn I

Grenn: he had not cut his hair nor trimmed his beard since the Fist of the First Men. It made him look as huge and shaggy as an aurochs ASOS, Jon IX

Septon chance-met in the roads (may be the High Septon): The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, AFFC, Brienne I

Ronnet Connington: He was eighteen, with long red hair that tumbled to his shoulders. AFFC, Brienne II

Loras Tyrell: Ser Loras was a year older than his sister, but they had the same big brown eyes, the same thick brown hair falling in lazy ringlets to their shoulders, the same smooth unblemished skin. AFFC, Cersei III

Lyn Corbray: His brown hair was shoulder length; one stray lock curled down across his forehead. Ser Lyn Corbray, Alayne thought AFFC, Alayne I

Blue Bard: The tunic he wore was pale blue silk slashed with shiny blue satin. He had even gone so far as to dye his hair blue, in the Tyroshi fashion. Long and curly, it fell to his shoulders and smelled as if it had been washed in rosewater. AFFC, Cersei IX

Tytos Blackwood: the Lord of Raventree had a hook nose, long hair, and a ragged salt-and-pepper beard that showed more salt than pepper. ADWD, Jaime I

Mance: Abel's fingers danced across the strings of his lute. The singer's beard was brown, though his long hair had largely gone to grey. ADWD, Theon I

Qarl the Maid: She liked the way his long, straight hair brushed against his shoulders. ADWD, The Wayward Bride

Illyrio as a youth:  A naked boy stood on the water, poised to duel with a bravo's blade in hand. He was lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushed his shoulders. ADWD, Tyrion I

Haldon Halfmaester: His hair had been pulled back and tied in a knot behind his head. ADWD, Tyrion III

Men and women with short hair: 

Kuleket Bracken: a great fat oaf with short-cropped hair and a pig's face. AGOT, Tyrion IV

Mya Stone: Her dark hair was cropped short and straight around her head, and she wore riding leathers and a light shirt of silvered ringmail. AGOT, Catelyn VI and Her hair was black as a raven's wing, so short and shaggy that Alayne suspected that she cut it with a dagger. AFFC, Alayne II

Asha Greyjoy: Ironborn, he knew at a glance; lean and long-legged, with black hair cut short, wind-chafed skin, strong sure hands, a dirk at her belt. ACOK, Theon II and also: A hand seized her hair, but short as it was he could not get a good enough grip to wrench her head back. ADWD, The Wayward Bride

Shae: Lollys clutched at her maid, a slender, pretty girl with short dark hair ACOK, Sansa I. We also know Shae keeps her hair short, because we get this months later when Tyrion kills her: All the times he'd slid his hands around her waist, squeezed her small firm breasts, stroked her short dark hair, ASOS, Tyrion XI

Renly: King Renly's hair had been that same coal black, but his had always been washed and brushed and combed. Sometimes he cut it short, and sometimes he let it fall loose to his shoulders, or tied it back behind his head with a golden ribbon, AFFC, Brienne VII

Kevan Lannister:  a close-cropped blond beard that followed the line of his heavy jaw and short blond hair in full retreat from his brow. ADWD, Cersei I

Some evidence women usually wear their hair longer than men's:

Sansa describing Illyn Payne:  Though he was not an old man, only a few wisps of hairremained to him, sprouting above his ears, but those he had grown long as a woman's. AGOT, Sansa I

Catelyn thinks about Bran's hair while he is comatose: Catelyn looked at Bran in his sickbed and brushed his hair back off his forehead. It had grown very long, she realized. She would have to cut it soon. AGOT, Catelyn III

Davos muses about his appearence: He ran his shortened fingers through thinning brown hair, and wondered if it needed to be cut. He must look presentable when he stood before the king. ASOS, Davos VI

Aeron thinks about his own waist-long hair as someting uncommon, he wears it like that because he is a holy man, but the lenght would not be uncommon in women: Aeron donned the robe and pulled his hair free. Black and wet, that hair; no blade had touched it since the sea had raised him up. It draped his shoulders like a ragged, ropy cloak, and fell down past his waist AFFC, The Prophet

Alayne thinks about Robert Arryn: Above it he was naked, a pasty boy with hair as long as any girl's.  and later She sat on the bed and smoothed his long, fine hair. He does have pretty hair. Lady Lysa had brushed it herself every night, and cut it when it wanted cutting. After she had fallen Robert had suffered terrible shaking fits whenever anyone came near him with a blade, so Petyr had commanded that his hair be allowed to grow. Both quotes are from AFFC, Alayne II

 

Sorry for the really long post. I do believe most man have shoulder lenght hair...

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I just default imagine everyone with long hair unless otherwise stated on page. Seems to be the norm for men and women in Westeros circa 300 AC. Woman probably wear their hair longer than men's, by the way it is described in the books, and noblewomen usually waer it tied up, braided and styled. Truly short hair like we see sported by most men today seems to be rare... For men, hair that is shoulder lenght and worn loose seems to be the norm. Some evidence in the next post.

Sure, the default setting is that men have long hair and I never questioned the length of Jon's hair. The remark was about me reading the book many many times and never noticing the thrown in line about the length of his hair until now. That's really it.

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On 8/13/2019 at 4:36 AM, SiSt said:

ASOS prologue, Cressen trying to poison Mel.

Cressen uses Davos´ cup of wine, which has been standing for a while, meaning there´s little to no turbulence in it from the pouring. Crystals take time to dissolve.

Assuming the crystals of strangler sink, they´ll dissolve in the bottom of the cup and stay there, so when Mel drinks "long and deep" (deliberately slowly and carefully?), there´s no, or only a small fraction of poison in her part of the glass and all of it for Cressen in the "half a swallow of wine" left.

Just a potential non-magical way for Mel to survive, bearing on her knowing he was going to poison her (by his weird actions, not a stretch) and her understanding the poison he´s using (not at all a stretch given that: "Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai'i gave the leaf.").

The poison doesn't sound that effective if its potency mostly lies in the dregs.

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I just realized that there are two characters named Dorea(h). There was Doreah, Dany's handmaid who was a wedding gift (and also slept with Viserys) and then there's Dorea Sand, the young daughter of Oberyn Martell. 

It had me wondering if it's a coincidence that someone who is in Targaryen entourage and the daughter of a family that supports a Targaryen restoration share the same name or if there was more going on at the time that we're not aware of yet. 

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On 8/16/2019 at 4:46 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

The poison doesn't sound that effective if its potency mostly lies in the dregs.

GRRM goes to some length describing the process of making it and it´s purely chemical, so is should follow normal chemical/physical constraints. Also, Mel knows her chemistry, using trickery where magic is not needed, so I´d assume she knows about concentration gradients in liquids...

Is magic just chemistry involving your soul and the forces of life as the ingredients?

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1 hour ago, SiSt said:

GRRM goes to some length describing the process of making it and it´s purely chemical, so is should follow normal chemical/physical constraints. Also, Mel knows her chemistry, using trickery where magic is not needed, so I´d assume she knows about concentration gradients in liquids...

Is magic just chemistry involving your soul and the forces of life as the ingredients?

A chemical solution typically permeates the entire liquid. Even a colloidal suspension like milk is fairly homogenous throughout. A poison that quickly settles into a precipitate doesn't sound like a very good poison to be used in that particular solvent.

Magic is real in this book series. Melisandre killed a skinchanged bird with fire, and sent a shadowbaby which killed Renly.

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7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

A chemical solution typically permeates the entire liquid. Even a colloidal suspension like milk is fairly homogenous throughout. A poison that quickly settles into a precipitate doesn't sound like a very good poison to be used in that particular solvent.

Magic is real in this book series. Melisandre killed a skinchanged bird with fire, and sent a shadowbaby which killed Renly.

Over time, yes. I´m not saying it settles into dregs, merely that any crystal dissolving in non-turbulent fluid will take time to spread into the entire glass, and that the concentration will be much higher at the bottom (if the crystals sink).

Milk is homogenous because it´s been processed and homogenized (and not really a good comparison).

I´ll illustrate this with a little experiment later if I have the time. Magic is def real in the series, but so is chemistry and physics.

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7 hours ago, SiSt said:

Over time, yes. I´m not saying it settles into dregs, merely that any crystal dissolving in non-turbulent fluid will take time to spread into the entire glass, and that the concentration will be much higher at the bottom (if the crystals sink).

Milk is homogenous because it´s been processed and homogenized (and not really a good comparison).

I´ll illustrate this with a little experiment later if I have the time. Magic is def real in the series, but so is chemistry and physics.

I the poison not having enough time to dissolve makes a bit more sense, but Cressen doesn't seem to think that was the case.

Milk must come out of some animal's teats, and those aren't large faucets through which a big chunk of solid matter could easily pass. The production of milk and said teats evolved concurrently.

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5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I the poison not having enough time to dissolve makes a bit more sense, but Cressen doesn't seem to think that was the case.

Milk must come out of some animal's teats, and those aren't large faucets through which a big chunk of solid matter could easily pass. The production of milk and said teats evolved concurrently.

Here´s a good illustration of what I´m trying to convey regarding the crystal dissolving in water. Even the colour is right... :-) Hot water on the left, cold on the right. Potassium permanganate dissolving in water

Milk is irrelevant to the discussion, but try some raw, unprocessed, non-homogenized milk and (don´t) get back to me.

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@SiSt the video is good illustration, but there is no reason to "discuss" the information you brought. You are right about it. It's how solutions work. That's why when we do titration in the lab it's crucial to mechanicaly agitate the erlenmeyer nonstop. You can't just drop one solution into another and wait for diffusion to take place. That is even more true when it comes to disolving crystals. Uh, I hated bench work when I was an undergrad, my wrists hurt after class

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When Ned meets Gendry at Tobho Mott's forge in A Game of Thrones, it is describes thus:

The master called over a tall lad about Robb's age (Eddard VI in A Game of Thrones)

Given that Jon and Robb - who we know were conceived during the Rebellion - are said to be of an age (Bran I in A Game of Thrones), the likelihood is that Gendry was also conceived around this time.  

If we add that to the story of Bella, who Arya and Gendry encounter in Stoney Sept in A Storm of Swords:

"They say King Robert fucked my mother when he hid here, back before the battle. Not that he didn't have all the other girls too, but Leslyn says he liked my ma the best."

The girl did have hair like the old king's, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal. That doesn't mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair. (Arya V in A Storm of Swords)
 
It becomes clear that not only has Robert produced all the bastards we know him to have, while he claims repeatedly to have fought to get Lyanna back during the Rebellion (and Bran reiterates this in his final A Game of Thrones chapter when telling Osha about Lyanna) he was simultaneously fathering multiple children on multiple women.  
 
It never stuck in my mind just how much he was digging for buried treasure, as the Night's Watch would say, while he was - in his mind - fighting to get Lyanna back.  It shows as well, I think, the extent to which he was lying to himself about how different his life would be had Lyanna lived.  More proof that she had Robert's measure far more than Ned did in this regard!
 
"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." (Eddard IX in A Game of Thrones)
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