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Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18


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9 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

A necro was debt?

Or was he implying a crowned stag? 
 

maybe weans or aborted? Something there with that phrase. I see something just don’t know what I’m looking at :( 

Crowned beast is King Aerys.

Jaime meant that Aerys was behaving like a beast (what he did to Rhaella on their last night together). In my opinion Aerys was behaving like that, because he was under the influence of the basilisk blood, with which he was poisoned by one of the Kingsguards, who was actually a Faceless Man.

I suspected even before, that at least one of Aerys' Kingsguards was an FM. And now I think that it was Jonothor Darry, what's with his brother bringing Viserys and Danny to Braavos.

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Crowned beast is King Aerys

Yup, I’m picking up what you’re putting down. :) I never considered basilisk poisoning. We never see who’s in the room and only a cloaked figure the identity’s are all presumed. Like the bites on her breasts could be from nursing a baby beast with clawed feet kicking at her thighs.

"You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming.

There is no exclamation mark after “hurting me.” And it’s contrasted to the screaming. She’s just stating it like one would wile nursing a child? A crowned prince/beast?

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17 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Yup, I’m picking up what you’re putting down. :) I never considered basilisk poisoning. We never see who’s in the room and only a cloaked figure the identity’s are all presumed. Like the bites on her breasts could be from nursing a baby beast with clawed feet kicking at her thighs.

"You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming.

There is no exclamation mark after “hurting me.” And it’s contrasted to the screaming. She’s just stating it like one would wile nursing a child? A crowned prince/beast?

Whaaaaat? :huh:

No, you're NOT "picking up what I'm putting down". I wasn't implying that some non existing beast-baby did those things to Rhaella. No.

I meant that one (or more) of Aerys' Kingsguards was a Faceless Man (most likely it was Jonothor Darry). So he, the FM, was adding basilisk blood into Aerys' food and drink, and because of that Aerys was berserking. His madness was "artificial", in a sense that he wasn't actually mad, instead he was driven insane because of frequently ingesting basilisk blood.

So on that night, when Jaime and Jonothor were guarding Rhaella's chamber, and Rhaella was with Aerys in her room, Aerys was raping her. He's the one who left all those marks on her body. He was biting and clawing her. And Rhaella was saying to Aerys that he is hurting her, not to someone else. There was no one else with them in that room, only the two of them. So afterwards, when Jaime heard from Rhaella's maids about her state, he thought about Aerys that Aerys is a crowned beast.

I just recently have read on this forum one of the older theories, that maybe Weese (a character that died in ACOK, one of those people whose name Arya said to Jaqen, while they were at Harrenhal) was killed by his dog, because Jaqen poisoned that dog with basilisk blood, and thus that dog went berserk and attacked its own master (Weese) and killed him.

So this made me think that they (the Faceless Men) could also be using basilisk blood to drive people to madness. Thus there is a possibility that none of the Targaryens that were allegedly (supposedly) mad, actually were mad, more likely is the possibility that they were poisoned with basilisk blood. Such characters as Maegor the Cruel, Aerion Brightfame, Aerys II, and several other Targaryens.

And then I remembered about that scene from Jaime's chapter in AFFC, and that GRRM had specifically wrote about Aerys' behavior that he was a beast. GRRM could have used other words, for example - sadist, savage, etc. Though for some reason he had chosen to specifically use word "beast". And in the same book (AFFC) in Arya's chapter one of the Faceless Men was explaining to Arya the working of various poisons and other substances that they (FM) use in their work. That FM said to Arya that basilisk blood "if eaten it produces violent madness, in beasts as well as men". She (that FM) could have said that it produces violent madness, in animals as well as men. But for some reason in this case GRRM specifically chosen to use word "beasts", not "animals".

GRRM wrote in AFFC that 1. those who eat basilisk blood are beasts, and he wrote that 2. Aerys was a crowned beast. Thus, in my opinion, it's a hint from GRRM that the Faceless Men were poisoning Aerys with basilisk blood.

And I wrote in one of my previous posts here - "I noticed that GRRM has a tendency to mention something and then in the same book to give a relevant hint/reveal related to that earlier information.", because this case about beasts/basilisk blood written in AFFC, is not the only case when GRRM did the same thing - gave connected hints in the same book thru chapters of different characters. This information (about beasts/basilisk blood) was revealed in AFFC thru one of Jaime's chapters and thru Arya's chapter. And there was an identical case when GRRM revealed in AFFC, also thru one of Arya's and one of Jaime's chapters, information about the Kingswood Brotherhood. In Jaime's chapter, when he was reading the White Book, it was revealed about Barristan Selmy that he was fighting against the Kingswood Brotherhood and defeated their leader Simon Toyne, and then in Arya's chapter there was given additional information about other members of the Kingswood Brotherhood. And by combining that information from Arya's and Jaime's chapters I made certain conclusions concerning Barristan and Golden Company. It doesn't matter what conclusions exactly have I made, what's relevant here is that there are two cases in which GRRM used in AFFC Jaime&Arya's chapters to give connected hints to the readers. So I think that it's a tendency, and that he (GRRM) possibly did the same thing more than those two times. Thus, if we will go thru Jaime&Arya's chapters in AFFC (and other books), it's likely that we will find there other similar cases, and thus we will be able to find more relevant clues left/hidden there by GRRM.

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6 hours ago, Megorova said:

adding basilisk blood into Aerys' food and drink, a

Oh, I was thinking it was a poisoned nipple. That the Queen or a maid smeared poison on their own nipples. Hard for anyone else to place it there.

“Aerys announced that Jaehaerys had been poisoned by his own mistress, the pretty young daughter of one of his household knights.”

“The birth of Prince Viserys only seemed to make Aerys II more fearful and obsessive, however. Though the new young princeling seemed healthy enough, the king was terrified lest he suffer the same fate as his brothers. Kingsguard knights were commanded to stand over him night and day to see that no one touched the boy without the king's leave. Even the queen herself was forbidden to be alone with the infant. When her milk dried up, Aerys insisted on having his own food taster suckle at the teats of the prince's wet nurse, to ascertain that the woman had not smeared poison on her nipples. As gifts for the young prince arrived from all the lords of the Seven Kingdoms, the king had them piled in the yard and burned, for fear that some of them might have been ensorcelled or cursed.”
 

"I was weaned on venom, Dalt. Any viper takes a bite of me will rue it." Ser Gerold vanished through a broken arch. 
Affc Queenmaker-Darkstar 

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6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Whaaaaat? :huh:

No, you're NOT "picking up what I'm putting down". I wasn't implying that some non existing beast-baby did those things to Rhaella. No.

:) I imagined myself fumbling a butter covered football like Charlie Brown. “I totally got this!”

I was thinking of a hidden child. I get excited with fantastic thoughts at times. What if they kept a baby secret to protect it from assassins or it’s appearance was so monstrous it was concealed out of shame. A child with wings and a tail. Viscous talons and clawed hands. Mwhahaha! During the rebellion beast baby was forced to flee. Living in between the walls of the Red keep. Haunting the shadowed halls and hunting rats and other vermin. Waiting for the day to reclaim his throne! Long live king beast baby!

…so yeah my hopes and imagination fly away from me at times. :) 

 

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On 8/19/2021 at 6:56 PM, Megorova said:

could have used other words, for example - sadist, savage, etc.

He certainly couldn't use sadist since there isn't Marquis de Sade in this world, IIRC. GRRM's not the best at it, but it would be completely asinine.

Violent madness sounds less like person having sadistic streak and more like becoming completely unhinged, like violent episode of madness, incoherent, attacking everyone. He'd probably kill or near kill Rhaella if that was the case. 

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9 hours ago, Rara Avis said:

He certainly couldn't use sadist since there isn't Marquis de Sade in this world

I assume that most people in Westeros would understand if someone used Bolton as synonym of sadist. Or person who behave like a Bolton is not very nice person.:P

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Randyll Tarly knows what is Brienne about and knows she's carrying a royal parchment and a Valyrian steel sword.

Quote

"Do that and answer to the throne." Her voice sounded high and girlish, when she wanted to sound fearless. "Podrick. In my bag you'll find a parchment. Bring it to his lordship."

Tarly took the letter and unrolled it, scowling. His lips moved as he read. "The king's business. What sort of business?"

Lie to me and I will hang you. "S-sansa Stark."

- Brienne III, AFFC
 

Quote

 

"If it please my lord," Ser Hyle said, "I watched her fight the Mummers. She is stronger than most men, and quick—"

"The sword is quick," Tarly snapped. "That is the nature of Valyrian steel. Stronger than most men? Aye. She's a freak of nature, far be it from me to deny it."

 

- Brienne V, AFFC

This info might wreck havoc if it reaches Cersei's ears as she will put 1+1 and knows it was Jaime who was behind of this scheme.

 

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On 8/23/2021 at 6:13 AM, Rara Avis said:

He certainly couldn't use sadist since there isn't Marquis de Sade in this world, IIRC.

I don't think we can get hung up on real-world etymology to rule in or exclude the author's choices of some words over others. There is no Latin or Greek or Sanskrit in this world, but the author frequently uses words with those roots.

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On 8/24/2021 at 1:57 PM, Seams said:

I don't think we can get hung up on real-world etymology to rule in or exclude the author's choices of some words over others. There is no Latin or Greek or Sanskrit in this world, but the author frequently uses words with those roots.

Yeah, the best for this is the Tolkien rule, taking the text as only translated to english from it's original language.

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On 8/18/2021 at 12:57 PM, Megorova said:

Crowned beast is King Aerys.

Jaime meant that Aerys was behaving like a beast (what he did to Rhaella on their last night together). In my opinion Aerys was behaving like that, because he was under the influence of the basilisk blood, with which he was poisoned by one of the Kingsguards, who was actually a Faceless Man.

I suspected even before, that at least one of Aerys' Kingsguards was an FM. And now I think that it was Jonothor Darry, what's with his brother bringing Viserys and Danny to Braavos.

Are the faceless men supposed to be that ineffectual though?  If they'd been poisoning Targs for a few generations wouldn't they have set the table for an usurper long before Robert? Are you also suggesting that every cruel or mad Targ was driven to it by poison?  Maegor, Aerion... Can't any of these people be malignant by their own volition or for reasons that don't involve some nebulous conspiracy to... well, not kill them but make them act like bloodthirsty jerks? FM's been at it since Maegor the Cruel and they only managed to provoke or enable (or whatever) a rebellion 250 odd years later? Jaqen H'ghar seems so competent when he works with Arya. Doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would throw in with the sort of losers you're making the faceless men appear to be.  

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4 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

not kill them but make them act like bloodthirsty jerks?

Inflicting Mental instability would be a better choice in a political rival than killing him. A new king would be crowned if ya killed one. An unstable one may be easier to manipulate.

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11 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Inflicting Mental instability would be a better choice in a political rival than killing him. A new king would be crowned if ya killed one. An unstable one may be easier to manipulate.

So the same group was manipulating Jaehaerys I and Aegon IV? They ran Westeros for 250 years and the best they could come up with was Robert's Rebellion?

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21 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

1. Are the faceless men supposed to be that ineffectual though? 

2. If they'd been poisoning Targs for a few generations wouldn't they have set the table for an usurper long before Robert?

3. Are you also suggesting that every cruel or mad Targ was driven to it by poison?  Maegor, Aerion... Can't any of these people be malignant by their own volition or for reasons that don't involve some nebulous conspiracy to... well, not kill them but make them act like bloodthirsty jerks?

4. FM's been at it since Maegor the Cruel and they only managed to provoke or enable (or whatever) a rebellion 250 odd years later? Jaqen H'ghar seems so competent when he works with Arya. Doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would throw in with the sort of losers you're making the faceless men appear to be.  

1. They are not ineffectual. On the contrary, they are very effective.

2. They were poisoning Targaryens probably as far back as since the Doom of Valyria, even before Targaryens migrated from Dragonstone to Westeros.

3. ASOS, Dany VI - "King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

I just recently figured out the real meaning of what GRRM was implying by this "coin tossing". The thing is, it wasn't done by the gods. Apparently every time a new Targaryen was going to be born, the acting Sealord of Braavos (because the Sealord is the leader of FM) tossed the iron coin to decide whether this specific Targaryen will be allowed to live - should they (FM) cause the baby's mother to miscarry it/make her to give birth to a stillborn child/should they smother the child in a cradle after it will be born, or should they let it live for a few years prior they will kill it; and in case if it was "decided" (by fate/by coin tossing) that this child should live, then they again tossed the coin to predetermine whether this child should be left in peace to become whoever it would become, or should they interfere and cause changes into this child's life (it seems that they not only made certain Targaryens to become crazy, they also affected some of them in other ways, thru manipulations and setting traps).

 4. They've been at it since Aegon the Conqueror's reign, and I'm not sure about him, but both of his sons (Aenys I and Maegor) definitely were killed by FM. Possibly the very first FM+Kingsguard was Humfrey the Mummer, who joined KG during Aegon's reign.

The Faceless Men do what they do, not to overthrow Targaryens, or to take over Iron Throne, or to cause a Rebellion or changes in who rules over 7K. They cause changes to the World history, because they believe that they know how things should be. They are guided by Fate, or by specific prophecies. Or something like that. Their goal is not to exterminate all Targaryens. Because if that was what they wanted, then they would have succeeded long ago. Thus, they are aiming towards something else. I have a very vague idea of what they are trying to do. But I can't figure out their motivation, thus I don't entirely understand what are they doing. Also, this topic is too ambiguous/indefinite, thus there's no point in discussing it, because GRRM had hidden this subplot (the Braavosi' conspiracy) so well, that even I only recently (6 or so months ago) noticed that nearly a hundred Targaryens were killed by the Faceless Men, and other readers didn't noticed any of it at all (maybe partially that's because majority of ASOIAF's readers haven't read Dunk&Egg novels, nor The World of Ice and Fire book, nor Fire & Blood). So unless GRRM himself will reveal in the next books what has been going on on the Braavosi' side of ASOIAF's plot, then the readers will never know, because on their own they won't ever figure it out.

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5 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

1. So the same group was manipulating Jaehaerys I and Aegon IV? They ran Westeros for 250 years and

2. the best they could come up with was Robert's Rebellion?

1. Actually for over 300 years. The same group was staying near Targaryens since the Doom of Valyria. Though it seems that they were mostly inactive at Targaryen court in 134-184+ AC. Because at that time the court was overtaken by Larra Rogare and her mother (Johanna Swann), both of whom were witches, shadowbinders, bloodmages and cat-skinchangers. Furthermore, it seems that Johanna made a deal with the Faceless Men that they won't interfere into her business. She robbed Rogare Bank and gave all that gold to the Sealord not only for the Faceless Men to assassinate her husband and brother-in-law, but also to leave Targaryen court in her hands and in the hands of her daughter (Larra/Serenei). I'm not sure when exactly they (FM) became active again, but it happened only after Aegon IV's (and Serenei's/Larra's) death <- he wasn't manipulated by FM, instead he was manipulated by his mother (who later also became his mistress and gave birth to Shiera Seastar). It appears that Baelor Breakspear (who died in 209 AC) was their first target/victim after that decades-long pause.  

Also, Robert's Rebellion wasn't their doing. Though it seems that they caused (or at least used as a cover for their murders) the Great Spring Sickness of 209-210 and Shivers of 59-60, they definitely took part alongside with Maelys Blackfyre in the Burning of Summerhall, and they caused at Pentos an epidemy during which died Illyrio's wife Serra (she was their intended targed, the other 2000 people were collateral damage, not to make Illyrio nor Varys to suspect that Serra was killed by FM), they also killed Robert's parents and infected Shireen with greyscale (Patchface did it, he's an FM).

Apparently there was some sort of prophecy or guaidance, based on which the Faceless Men thought that certain events are supposed to happen for them to achieve their goal (whatever that is). And that sequence of events was supposed to go like this - the death of the Black dragon, then the death of the Black dragon's father and children, and then the death of many people. The FM thought that the Black dragon is Baelor Breakspear, and thus they killed him, then they killed Baelor's father (Daeron II) and his sons (Valarr and Matarys), and they caused the Great Spring Sickness, during which died a lot of people. But they were wrong, because the Black dragon was Rhaegar, the father and the children of the Black dragon were Aerys II, Rhaenys and Aegon, and a lot of people were supposed to die and did died during Robert's Rebellion. That was the only major fuck up on FM's part - they unnecessarily killed Baelor and caused an epidemy at the 7K.

2. Robert's Rebellion wasn't their (FM's) doing. Robert's Rebellion happened because it was Fate.

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49 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Targaryen was going to be born, the acting Sealord of Braavos (because the Sealord is the leader of FM) tossed the iron coin to decide whether this specific Targaryen will be allowed to live - should they (FM) cause the baby's mother to miscarry it/make her to give birth to a stillborn child/should they smother the child in a cradle after it will be born, or should they let it live for a few years prior they will kill it; and in case if it was "decided" (by fate/by coin tossing) that this child should live, then they again tossed the coin to predetermine whether this child should be left in peace to become whoever it would become, or should they interfere and cause changes into this child's life (it seems that they not only made certain Targaryens to become crazy, they also affected some of them in other ways, thru manipulations and setting traps).

Ironic that the faceless men use coins with so many faces on them.

 

 

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On 8/27/2021 at 7:40 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

So the same group was manipulating Jaehaerys I and Aegon IV? They ran Westeros for 250 years and the best they could come up with was Robert's Rebellion?

Just a possibility of actions. The motive doesn’t have to be the Rebellion. 

A new king is crowned. A new game begins? Most games start with a coin toss. Usually to decide who moves first. What if everyone is playing a game whether they are aware of it or not. The rules have dire consequences if violated. Ignorance of the rules will not defend you, nor shield you, from the reckoning.

It is cruel, to be playing a game of life’s unaware, but that is the way of life.

Good frend for Iesvs sake forbeare,
To digg THe   dvsT enclosed HEare.
Blese be    Ye man Y spares THes stones,

And cvrst be he   Y moves my bones.

shakespeare-first-folio-title-page-intro

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