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Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18

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The the name 'Illyrio Mopatis' may suggest a Tyroshi origin. 
For instance these are names of characters from Tyrosh.  

Collio Quaynis
Moreo Tumitis
Daario Naharis
Alequo Adarys

It also seems unlikely that the name 'Varys' originated in Lys and could possibly also be Tyroshi. 

Salladhor Saan
Samarro Saan
Lysono Maar

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20 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

The the name 'Illyrio Mopatis' may suggest a Tyroshi origin. 
For instance these are names of characters from Tyrosh.  

Collio Quaynis
Moreo Tumitis
Daario Naharis
Alequo Adarys

Noho Dimitis, Tycho Nestoris, Oro Tendyris >>> Braavos.

25 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

It also seems unlikely that the name 'Varys' originated in Lys and could possibly also be Tyroshi. 

Varys was born a slave in Lys (as far as we're told), doesn't mean his mother was from there. We know the slaves from Lys come from everywhere. They should be receiving a ship full of wildling women and children to be sold in pillow houses and wherever else.

28 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

Salladhor Saan
Samarro Saan
Lysono Maar

There's a pattern, but there are always exceptions.

House Rogare doesn't fit the pattern and neither does Tregar Ormollen.

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Noho Dimitis, Tycho Nestoris, Oro Tendyris >>> Braavos.

So many characters.. I'll add Noho and Oro to the list.  

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Varys was born a slave in Lys (as far as we're told)

I tend to think everything he says is half a lie. 

So like he may have had some interactions with slaves and Lys, but he may not have been the slave or the one from Lys.

Similarly he may have been the one cutting off and burning body parts rather than the one being cut. 

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There's a pattern, but there are always exceptions.

House Rogare doesn't fit the pattern and neither does Tregar Ormollen.

Oh sure, it just seems to be a general regional pattern, rather than a rule set in stone. 

Though still might be useful for narrowing down possible origins. 

I've been wondering about House Rogare, the first names seem to be fairly obviously from Lys.   
But perhaps the House itself and it's connections elsewhere suggest it didn't originate in Lys.  

Tregar Ormollen seems like it may fit the regional pattern for Lys. 
Salladhor Saan
Samarro Saan
Lysono Maar
Rogare?

Edited by Narsil4

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Regarding the theory about Valyrian hips and the need to walk or sit in a certain way in order to ride dragons: 

 

In Daenerys X (A Dance with Dragons), when Dany has ridden on Drogon a couple of days ago and is walking in the Dothraki sea, she specifically has blisters on both her pinky toes and giggles to herself, thinking that it is because of the way she walks. 

...

”She was very tired, and fresh blisters had appeared on both her feet, including a matched set upon her pinky toes. It must be from the way I walk, she thought, giggling.”

...

One probably has to walk with wide strides and one’s hips and legs arched out to both sides, like a real-world cowboy or a Dothraki, in order to get blisters on one’s pinky toes. One is putting the weight on the outer sides of the feet. And it makes sense, both because Daenerys is Valyrian and because she has learned to arch her hips and legs like that while riding with the Dothraki.

 

So either Daenerys has walked with a certain wide gait all her life, from being Valyrian, or she learned to do it with the Dothraki, and if she learned it from them, maybe she was predisposed to be able to do it because of her Valyrian genes. Or she is just walking in a certain way for some other reason of course, but it makes sense that it would be connected to riding dragons since she has just ridden on Drogon in this chapter.

Edited by Adam Targaryen

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Another thing from Daenerys X (A Dance with Dragons), which I also noticed now while reading it:

 

The ants crawling over the stone wall to bite Daenerys in her sleep is clear foreshadowing of the wights coming over the Wall to invade Westeros, as the continent is ”sleeping".

...

”The next morning she woke stiff and sore and aching, with ants crawling on her arms and legs and face. When she realized what they were, she kicked aside the stalks of dry brown grass that had served as her bed and blanket and struggled to her feet. She had bites all over her, little red bumps, itchy and inflamed. Where did all the ants come from? Dany brushed them from her arms and legs and belly. She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck. She knocked them off and crushed them under her bare feet. There were so many... 

It turned out that their anthill was on the other side of her wall. She wondered how the ants had managed to climb over it and find her. To them these tumbledown stones must loom as huge as the Wall of Westeros. The biggest wall in all the world, her brother Viserys used to say, as proud as if he’d built it himself.”

...

This metaphor/foreshadowing is extremely clear and obvious. A beautiful woman (such as Daenerys) lying down and being attacked by small creatures biting at her has been used as a metaphor for Westeros before, in Daenerys’ House of the Undying vision. There it was dwarves, representing the kings of Westeros in the War of the Five Kings. Now it’s ants, representing the wights of the Others in the second Long Night. Also, this time it is Daenerys herself who is this woman - Dany herself is Westeros - which probably means that while she was not in Westeros nor affected at all during the War of the Five Kings, she will be in Westeros and probably even rule over it during the new Long Night. 

 

(Two extra things:

The dry brown grass could represent the wildlings, since they are a sort of link to the Others and might in some way be ”responsible”. The ants are coming to Dany via the grass and the wights will come to the Seven Kingdoms via the wildlings.

Also, the ants climbing over Daenerys’ stubbly scalp after her hair has been burned away by Drogon could represent the wights making it all the way to King’s Landing after it has been burned by Daenerys herself/Drogon. If Daenerys is Westeros, then her scorched head is the scorched capital - King’s Landing. One ant even makes it to the back of her head, which is her most vulnerable part, which might mean that a wight or Other will make it to the most vulnerable/vital part of King’s Landing before Westeros wakes up and defeats them.)

Edited by Adam Targaryen

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[snip] She had no septon aboard her to lead them in the prayers of passing, so the task fell to Samwell Tarly, somewhere off the sun-scorched southern coast of Dorne.

Maester Aemon left the Wall, a place of cold and died along the coast of Dorne, a place of heat.

Jon Snow was born in Dorne, a place of heat, and was stabbed (possibly to death) at the Wall, a place of cold.

Maester Aemon talking to Sam about dragons;

"The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"
"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ." (Sam III, AFfC 26)

Jon Snow thinking about dragons;

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. (Jon VIII, ADWD 39)

 

Contrast here too. Maester Aemon sees the dragon shadows on the snow while Jon sees them outlined against flame.

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I saw this on r/asoiaf but I don't quite remember where. It's about Lothor Brune.

Bruin(which spells and sounds similar to Brune)=A bear in children's tale.

Sansa= fair maiden

The bear and the maiden fair?

Also...

Lothor is nicknamed "Apple Eater" for killing half a hundred Fossoway men at arms, killing two red Fossoways and capturing one green one.

Brune= brown

There's a Fossoway bastard in the GC who refers to himself as a brown apple

The GC might want to eliminate all of Robert's bastards, which includes Mya Stone, who Lothor is fond of so...

Applebowl! Get hype!

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This is sort of interesting in light of who is about to land in Westeros. Maybe there's a meeting being foreshadowed here?

Robert had never learned to ride properly, she knew. Mules, horses, donkeys, it made no matter; to him they were all fearsome beasts, as  terrifying as dragons or griffins. (Alayne II, AFfC 41)

It's also kind of interesting that we are introduced to the legend of the Winged Knight who slew the Griffin Knight in the same chapter.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Something I noticed on a thematic level, is why Martin chose to have Brienne disfigured by Biter (part of her cheek eaten off, to evoke visceral horror).

It's fairly well-known that Brienne defending the orphans at the inn is her response to the moral dilemma posed earlier about the knight at Saltpans who stays holed up in his keep instead of defending his smallfolk (similar to the dilemma that Will faces in the AGOT Prologue). Should someone sworn to service carry out that service if it's only likely to result in their death?

 

What could he have done, one man against so many?"
He could have tried, Brienne thought. He could have died. Old or young, a true knight is sworn to protect those who are weaker than himself, or die in the attempt.
 
She then later elects to defend the orphans at the Inn against the remnants of the Bloody Mummers, knowing that she most likely can't defeat seven of them and could just slip away.
 
So, if the story is saying that she is doing the right thing regardless of the consequences, there has to be a consequence. Otherwise, it cheapens her effort to have the story save her from this moral dilemma.

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The named men who have blue hair in the story are so far Daario, the Blue Bard, Young Griff, Griff.

Daario Naharis;

[snip] and Daario Naharis was flampboyant even for a Tyroshi. His beard was cut into three prongs and dyed blue, the same color as his eyes and the curly hair that fell to his collar. (Dany IV, ASoS 42)

The Blue Bard;

"Not kind," said Cersei, "merely truthful. Taena tells me that you are called the Blue Bard."
"I am, Your Grace." The singer's boots were supple blue calfskin, his breeches a fine blue wool. The tunic he wore was pale blue silk slashed with shiny blue satin. He had even gone so far as to dye his hair blue, in the Tyroshi fashion. Long and curly, it fell to his shoulders and smelled as if it had been washed in rosewater.
From the blue rose, no doubt. At least his teeth are white. They were good teeth, not the least bit crooked. (Cersei IX, AFfC 39)

Young Griff;

 Tyrion craned his head to one side, and saw a boy standing on the roof of a low wooden building, waving a wide-brimmed straw hat. He was a lithe and well-made youth, with a lanky build and a shock of dark blue hair.  (Tyrion III, ADwD 8)

Griff;

Griff's cloak was made from the hide and head of a red wolf of the Rhoyne. Under the pelt he wore brown leather stiffened with iron rings. His clean-shaved face was leathery too, with wrinkles at the corners of his eyes. Though his hair was as blue as his son's, he had red roots and redder eyebrows. (34-Tyrion III, ADwD 8)

  • Griff's real name is Jon Connington. He's a redhead.
  • Young Griff's real name is Aegon Targaryen (it doesn't matter if one believes he is a Targaryen or a Blackfyre. What matters is that he is hiding his identity under blue hair). Real hair color should be similar to Dany's.
  • The Blue Bard is the son of a chandler and his real name is Wat. His real hair color is brown.

That leaves Daario Naharis as the odd man out in this pattern of blue hair/hidden identity.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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19 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:
  • The Blue Bard is the son of a chandelier and his real name is Wat. His real hair color is brown. 

That leaves Daario Naharis as the odd man out in this pattern of blue hair/hidden identity.

It's cool if he's the son of a chandelier, but my copy of the book says he is the son of a chandler - a person who provides supplies for boats and/or a grocery supplier who may deal in candles, soap, paint and other such items.

The Blue Bard's fabulous clothes remind me of the singer Dareon, who dies wearing an outfit that is various shades of purple:

The whores called him the black singer, but there was hardly any black about him now. With the coin his singing brought him, the crow had transformed himself into a peacock. Today he wore a plush purple cloak lined with vair, a striped white-and-lilac tunic, and the parti-colored breeches of a bravo, but he owned a silken cloak as well, and one made of burgundy velvet that was lined with cloth-of-gold. The only black about him was his boots. Cat had heard him tell Lanna that he'd thrown all the rest in a canal. "I am done with darkness," he had announced.

(AFfC, Chap. 34, Cat of the Canals)

In The Sworn Sword, I believe the name Wat is linked to the fight over water that is central to the plot. The Blue Bard's "real" name being Wat might also link him to water. Dareon weds the Sailor's Wife, perhaps giving him a symbolic link to life on a boat. Arya dumps Dareon's body in a canal, which seem to be the Braavos equivalent of a river.

In attempting to sort out the symbolism of the Trident, I think blue ends up being the happy medium between the green and red branches. Green and red flow from completely different headwaters and have nothing in common until they eventually converge around Lord Harroway's Town. The association of blue-haired characters with water and riverboats might underscore the symbolism of the blue fork of the river. 

But again, Daario does not have a particularly strong association with rivers. The strongest association I have with Daario is three - he brings Dany the heads of the other sellsword captains, creating a situation where he has three heads. Dany frequently remarks on Daario stroking the hilts of his weapons - hilts shaped like naked women. This also creates a "three heads" image, if you count Daario in the middle. And then there is his three-pronged beard. Maybe a re-read would bring up some boat or river-related details in connection with Daario.

Of course, I suspect GRRM is setting us up with a blue beard and blue bard hint. But I'm not sure what he is trying to tell us.

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I would guess that this has been noticed before, but just in case it has not...

Arya, AGOT

Quote

...She hated the sounds of their voices now, the way they laughed, the stories they told. They’d been her friends, she’d felt safe around them, but now she knew that was a lie. They’d let the queen kill Lady, that was horrible enough, but then the Hound found Mycah. Jeyne Poole had told Arya that he’d cut him up in so many pieces that they’d given him back to the butcher in a bag, and at first the poor man had thought it was a pig they’d slaughtered. And no one had raised a voice or drawn a blade or anything, not Harwin who always talked so bold, or Alyn who was going to be a knight, or Jory who was captain of the guard. Not even her father.

“He was my friend,” Arya whispered into her plate, so low that no one could hear. Her ribs sat there untouched, grown cold now, a thin film of grease congealing beneath them on the plate. Arya looked at them and felt ill. She pushed away from the table.

“Pray, where do you think you are going, young lady?” Septa Mordane asked.

“I’m not hungry.” Arya found it an effort to remember her courtesies. “May I be excused, please?” she recited stiffly.

“You may not,” the septa said. “You have scarcely touched your food. You will sit down and clean your plate.”

“You clean it!” Before anyone could stop her, Arya bolted for the door as the men laughed and Septa Mordane called loudly after her, her voice rising higher and higher.

No wonder Arya was not hungry! 

Arya is expected to eat a plate of ribs. The ribs remind her of what Jeyne had told her about how Micah's body was 'butchered like a pig they slaughtered'.

Side note- I believe this is the first time George plays with the cannibalism motif which will be so prevalent in later books.

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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Have we discussed the torture and murder of singers? (We probably have but I tend to return to topics I haven't fully explained to myself.) I've always thought of this repeated motif as a way of showing a character suppressing the truth: Littlefinger scapegoats Marillion; Tyrion orders the murder of Symon Silver Tongue. Ned simply refuses to have singers at Winterfell (perhaps fearing the old Bael the Bard scenario).

In addition to suppressing the truth, is there a rite of passage involved in the murder? The character who orders the murder may need to kill a singer to move on with his/her journey, or to reach the next level of power?

Cersei and Qyburn seem intent on torturing and murdering the Blue Bard. 

In the Dunk & Egg stories, does Bloodraven's decision to imprison but spare the life of John the Fiddler (Daemon II Blackfyre) follow the pattern? 

One part of the pattern seems to be that we don't witness the demise of the singer - there is always the possibility that the badly-mangled music maker has survived in a cell somewhere, or has somehow escaped. 

An exception would be Arya's murder of Dareon, a deserter from the Night's Watch. We are given pretty definite proof that Dareon is dead. (Although his body is dumped in a canal and we know that people emerge reborn from rivers.) 

Here is a little bit of context from Littlefinger and Sansa surround Joffrey's torture of a singer:

Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. "Life is not a song, sweetling," he'd told her. "You may learn that one day to your sorrow." In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound's voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. "Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants."

The last case was a plump tavern singer, accused of making a song that ridiculed the late King Robert. Joff commanded them to fetch his woodharp and ordered him to perform the song for the court. The singer wept and swore he would never sing that song again, but the king insisted. It was sort of a funny song, all about Robert fighting with a pig. The pig was the boar who'd killed him, Sansa knew, but in some verses it almost sounded as if he were singing about the queen. When the song was done, Joffrey announced that he'd decided to be merciful. The singer could keep either his fingers or his tongue. He would have a day to make his choice. Janos Slynt nodded.

AGoT, Sansa VI

If life is not a song, maybe I am wrong in equating singers with truth-tellers. Why does Sansa long for heroes and true knights, as portrayed in song? Why do other characters suppress and punish singers?

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On 11/8/2019 at 11:49 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This is sort of interesting in light of who is about to land in Westeros. Maybe there's a meeting being foreshadowed here?

Robert had never learned to ride properly, she knew. Mules, horses, donkeys, it made no matter; to him they were all fearsome beasts, as  terrifying as dragons or griffins. (Alayne II, AFfC 41)

It's also kind of interesting that we are introduced to the legend of the Winged Knight who slew the Griffin Knight in the same chapter.

Nice!

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On 11/9/2019 at 2:16 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The named men who have blue hair in the story are so far Daario, the Blue Bard, Young Griff, Griff.

Daario Naharis;

[snip] and Daario Naharis was flampboyant even for a Tyroshi. His beard was cut into three prongs and dyed blue, the same color as his eyes and the curly hair that fell to his collar. (Dany IV, ASoS 42)

The Blue Bard;

"Not kind," said Cersei, "merely truthful. Taena tells me that you are called the Blue Bard."
"I am, Your Grace." The singer's boots were supple blue calfskin, his breeches a fine blue wool. The tunic he wore was pale blue silk slashed with shiny blue satin. He had even gone so far as to dye his hair blue, in the Tyroshi fashion. Long and curly, it fell to his shoulders and smelled as if it had been washed in rosewater.
From the blue rose, no doubt. At least his teeth are white. They were good teeth, not the least bit crooked. (Cersei IX, AFfC 39)

Young Griff;

 Tyrion craned his head to one side, and saw a boy standing on the roof of a low wooden building, waving a wide-brimmed straw hat. He was a lithe and well-made youth, with a lanky build and a shock of dark blue hair.  (Tyrion III, ADwD 8)

Griff;

Griff's cloak was made from the hide and head of a red wolf of the Rhoyne. Under the pelt he wore brown leather stiffened with iron rings. His clean-shaved face was leathery too, with wrinkles at the corners of his eyes. Though his hair was as blue as his son's, he had red roots and redder eyebrows. (34-Tyrion III, ADwD 8)

  • Griff's real name is Jon Connington. He's a redhead.
  • Young Griff's real name is Aegon Targaryen (it doesn't matter if one believes he is a Targaryen or a Blackfyre. What matters is that he is hiding his identity under blue hair). Real hair color should be similar to Dany's.
  • The Blue Bard is the son of a chandler and his real name is Wat. His real hair color is brown.

That leaves Daario Naharis as the odd man out in this pattern of blue hair/hidden identity.

Or not... The link leads to a theory that Daario is a Blackfyre. 

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On 11/11/2019 at 12:01 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I would guess that this has been noticed before, but just in case it has not...

Arya, AGOT

No wonder Arya was not hungry! 

Arya is expected to eat a plate of ribs. The ribs remind her of what Jeyne had told her about how Micah's body was 'butchered like a pig they slaughtered'.

Side note- I believe this is the first time George plays with the cannibalism motif which will be so prevalent in later books.

Wow! Great catch!

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From the very beginning...

Quote

A cold wind was blowing from out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him...

Prologue, Game

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17 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Or not... The link leads to a theory that Daario is a Blackfyre. 

Thanks for the link and I've been fairly certain for a long time that he is the Blackfyre in the story. The fAegon speculation threw me off when I started looking stuff up online.

I think Daario fits the pattern of the blue hair. And he's been in captivity long enough now that his real hair color should start showing at the roots. 

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