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Seams

Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18

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5 hours ago, Seams said:

I think you're onto something here, but I think maybe the giants and bears are linked or used interchangeably. Or maybe the bears and giants are fighting for the same turf. Tyrion wears a bear skin and he is called "my giant of lannister" by Shae. (He also called a "giant among us" by Maester Aemon.) Tormund could be an alternate, symbolic version of Lord Commander Mormont, guiding Jon in his growth and development. 

Thanks. One other thought is, the tale and one title might be inherited; if giants and bears are interchangable, Tormund himself may be a “giant”s babe, the giant being a bear, a mormont. The reasoning behind is that Tormund is a short and muscular fellow like the Mormonts, the exception being Dacey who was Stark-like in body(lean body, long legs)

So he could’ve taken the husband the bears from his father and he is a giant’s/bear’s babe.

 

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Two things in Sam I, ASoS 18, Sam recalling the battle on the Fist of the First Men and later killing an Other:

Thoren Smallwood charging the undead bear;

They shone like frozen stars. Thoren Smallwood charged, his longsword shining all orange and red from the light of the fire. His swing nearly took the bear's head off. And then the bear took his. (Sam I, ASoS 18)

We have an almost imagery of Lightbringer here. It actually reminded me of the description of Stannis' Lightbringer, shining with light, but with no heat emanating from it.

And after Sam kills the Other;

"So craven you killed an Other." Grenn pointed with the knife. "Look there, through the trees. Pink light. Dawn, Sam. Dawn. That must be east. If we head that way, we should catch Mormont." (Sam I, ASoS 18)

Dawn breaks.

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Most of this is from Dinneen's Gaelic dictionary (the print version has more entries than the pdf) and some from Dwelly and other sources.

leannan means "lover, sweetheart, to pursue, to elope" but it also means "chronic illness or infirmity" 

lean means "sorrow, regret, woe, deep affliction; grief, anguish"

leana means "meadow or swamp, low-lying grassy place, water-meadow"

leanai/leanaim means "the act of ruining, destroying" and "to follow, to pursue"

leann means "a mantle, a coat of mail" and "sadness, melancholy, hypochondriac" and "sore, ulcer" and "water-logged, as a boat"

leannach means "cloaked"

leanbh means "a baby, child, a suckling"

leann/lionn means "a net, a hunting net"

leannán sídhe means "fairy sweetheart" "a familiar spirit, an endearing phantom" "a beautiful muse who offers inspiration to an artist in exchange for their love and devotion; although the supernatural affair leads to madness and eventual death for the artist"

liya/lighe means "a sick bed, laying down, grave, tomb, monument" (meamra also means "tomb, shrine")

lia means "a stone, great stone"

Meera's mother is Jyana Reed.  leann means "a hunting net" and Meera uses a hunting net.  leannach means "cloaked" as in hidden or in disguise?--and "armored" as in Lyanna went into witness protection and married Howland? (we do know she was hidden in a tower and Howland and Ned came to rescue her) (also, Arya and Sansa both assumed false identities to hide from their enemies, its what Stark maidens do, Starrog means "hill-summit, or obstinate female") 

"Ravens can't find Greywater Watch, no more than our enemies can."

"Andals and ironmen, Freys and other fools, all those proud warriors who set out to conquer Greywater. Not one of them could find it. They ride into the Neck, but not back out. "

Greywater would be the safest hiding spot. "Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses."  Were the roses in her room winter roses or regular roses?  If they were winter roses, how did they get them in Dorne during a rebellion.  In the Bael the Bard story, the Blue Winter Rose was hiding near (under) Winterfell the whole time.  The Neck is under Winterfell, and is a crypt of sorts.  (And the Laughing Wolf took the Marsh King's daughter)

"winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment."

CoTF are singers, and crannogmen are CoTF/human hybrids. And the leannan sidhe was a fairy woman who seduces humans, the CoTF are based on the sidhe who live in hollow hills.

"The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his." sounds like Ned giving away the bride to Howland.  "taken her hand" in marriage?  Cloaking is part of the marriage ceremony also.

Bran mentions Ned having correspondence with Howland: "His father had sent letters to the Lord of Greywater over the years"

 

"Meera reminded Bran of his sister Arya" and Bran mistakes Lyanna for Arya in his weirwood vision, so Meera is somehow similar to Lyanna.  Both are slender and tomboyish.  Meera is a huntress, and Lyanna had the wolf's blood.  Meera protects a crannogman and a cripple.  Lyanna protected crannogman Howland at Harrenhal.

As a child Jojen almost died of Greywater Fever, and he has a chronic illness.  All we know about Lyanna's death is that she died of fever in a bed of blood, spattered with gore.  The Reeds live in a swamp, and the Fever River is in the Neck, leana means "swamp" leann means "water-logged" and leannan means "chronic illness"  Is it possible she died of Greywater Fever at Greywater Watch?

Jojen implies that Howland has told him the Mystery Knight story a hundred times, if it was a "how I met your mother who died when you were young" that would make sense.  Howland is fiercely loyal to Ned, if Howland married Ned's sister who faked her death in order to hide her from Robert this would make sense (reverse Elenai and Durran story, leanna is an anagram of elenai).  Jojen is suspiciously insistent about Bran not knowing the Mystery Knight story, as if it has a very close connection with the Starks.

Bran thinks of Howland as an older, stronger version of Jojen.  So, Meera = Lyanna, and Jojen = Howland, she is a huntress and protects him and Bran.  Bran falls in love with Meera on their journey north.  A Stark falling in love with a Reed.  

joj means crow in Mayan, meire means blackbird in gaelic, (lon also means blackbird, and Lon Snow was a bastard of Wylla Fenn from the Neck and Brandon Stark--a Stark and a Crannogwoman producing a child who is a blackbird--Lon/Jon swapping the "L" and the "J" for the first letter, as Lyanna/Jyana?) and of course bran means crow.  (fenn means swamp, and feannog means crow, meire means blackbird, and mire means swamp, frogs and crows both croak) 

 

Howland

giollan/giolla means a "little lad" or "lad or youth, guide, especially a small person engaged with others much bigger"  (Meera calls Howland a lad several times: "the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend" " The lad was no knight" etc. )

giolla airm means "armour-bearer"

giolla eich means "groom" or "horseboy" (and Lyanna was "half a horse")

giolcach/giolc means "reeds"

giol means "early grass"

giolcay means "a beating"

giolbu means "a laughing stock, I make a fool of"  (Howland "feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people")

gioll means "to pledge" (" 'To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater,' they said together.")

Howland was a lad named Reed around much bigger people, who receives a beating from the squires who make a fool of him, and who is afraid of making a fool of himself.  (liorán means a "mature-looking person of small stature")

giol means grass and reeds, and leana means meadows and swamps. leann means armor, and giolla airm means a boy who carries your armor.  a horseboy and and a horsegirl (Arya is horseface and is like Lyanna)

 

 

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Regarding Bran II or III or something - I'm not counting the exact chapters all the time - in Dance:

 

Coldhands calls the Others "White walkers". Isn't that word supposed to only be used by the wildlings? Could this say something about Coldhands' identity, even though he has crow's garb?

 

Also, when Bran wargs Hodor in the attack before they reach the cave of the Three Eyed Raven, he screams "HODOR!", but couldn't Bran make Hodor talk like a normal person when he is inside him if he wanted to?

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8 hours ago, Adam Targaryen said:

Regarding Bran II or III or something - I'm not counting the exact chapters all the time - in Dance:

 

Coldhands calls the Others "White walkers". Isn't that word supposed to only be used by the wildlings? Could this say something about Coldhands' identity, even though he has crow's garb?

A search of the term shows that more non-wildlings than wildlings is the term

8 hours ago, Adam Targaryen said:

Also, when Bran wargs Hodor in the attack before they reach the cave of the Three Eyed Raven, he screams "HODOR!", but couldn't Bran make Hodor talk like a normal person when he is inside him if he wanted to?

Perhaps he could, perhaps not. But even of he could, I doubt he would do it. He likely would not want anyone to notice he is warging another human.

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Sandor never proclaimed the Queen Of Love and Beauty when he won the Hand's Tourny. Perhaps we'll see this happen later on (Don't mind me, just another SanSan Fan)

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22 hours ago, Adam Targaryen said:

Coldhands calls the Others "White walkers". Isn't that word supposed to only be used by the wildlings? Could this say something about Coldhands' identity, even though he has crow's garb?

The first time the term "white walkers" was spoken was by Old Nan, not by wildlings. And Bran instantly knew what she meant by it

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On 6/24/2019 at 1:12 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Two things in Sam I, ASoS 18, Sam recalling the battle on the Fist of the First Men and later killing an Other:

Thoren Smallwood charging the undead bear;

They shone like frozen stars. Thoren Smallwood charged, his longsword shining all orange and red from the light of the fire. His swing nearly took the bear's head off. And then the bear took his. (Sam I, ASoS 18)

We have an almost imagery of Lightbringer here. It actually reminded me of the description of Stannis' Lightbringer, shining with light, but with no heat emanating from it.

And after Sam kills the Other;

"So craven you killed an Other." Grenn pointed with the knife. "Look there, through the trees. Pink light. Dawn, Sam. Dawn. That must be east. If we head that way, we should catch Mormont." (Sam I, ASoS 18)

Dawn breaks.

Nice. 

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A bad teacher doesn't even show the proper way to grip a sword. 

Tyrion III, GoT 

Quote

"Pypar is his real name. The small boy with the large ears. He saw me working with Grenn and asked for help. Thorne had never even shown him the proper way to grip a sword." He turned to look north. "I have a mile of Wall to guard. Will you walk with me?"

The first lesson from a good teacher:

Arya II, GoY

Quote

Arya took her right hand off the grip and wiped her sweaty palm on her pants. She held the sword in her left hand. He seemed to approve. "The left is good. All is reversed, it will make your enemies more awkward. Now you are standing wrong. Turn your body sideface, yes, so. You are skinny as the shaft of a spear, do you know. That is good too, the target is smaller. Now the grip. Let me see." He moved closer and peered at her hand, prying her fingers apart, rearranging them. "Just so, yes. Do not squeeze it so tight, no, the grip must be deft, delicate."

 

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Just a little onomastics:

Sandor is the Hungarian form of the name Alexander which consists of the parts alexein= to help/defend and andros= man. It is subsequently translated as both, The helping man and the Defender of Mankind.

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Posted (edited)

Why the Hound protected Sansa and Arya: Joffrey remembers.

AGOT Tyrion I

Tyrion Lannister reached up and slapped his nephew hard across the face. The boy's cheek began to redden.

"One word," Tyrion said, "and I will hit you again."

"I'm going to tell Mother!" Joffrey exclaimed.

Tyrion hit him again. Now both cheeks flamed.

"You tell your mother," Tyrion told him. "But first you get yourself to Lord and Lady Stark, and you fall to your knees in front of them, and you tell them how very sorry you are, and that you are at their service if there is the slightest thing you can do for them or theirs in this desperate hour, and that all your prayers go with them. Do you understand? Do you?"

The boy looked as though he was going to cry. Instead, he managed a weak nod. Then he turned and fled headlong from the yard, holding his cheek. Tyrion watched him run.

A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun. He had lowered the visor on his helm. It was fashioned in the likeness of a snarling black hound, fearsome to behold, but Tyrion had always thought it a great improvement over Clegane's hideously burned face.

"The prince will remember that, little lord," the Hound warned him. The helm turned his laugh into a hollow rumble.

----------

AGOT Sansa I

Then a grey blur flashed past her, and suddenly Nymeria was there, leaping, jaws closing around Joffrey's sword arm. The steel fell from his fingers as the wolf knocked him off his feet, and they rolled in the grass, the wolf snarling and ripping at him, the prince shrieking in pain. "Get it off," he screamed. "Get it off!"

Arya's voice cracked like a whip. "Nymeria!"

The direwolf let go of Joffrey and moved to Arya's side. The prince lay in the grass, whimpering, cradling his mangled arm. His shirt was soaked in blood. Arya said, "She didn't hurt you … much." She picked up Lion's Tooth where it had fallen, and stood over him, holding the sword with both hands.

Joffrey made a scared whimpery sound as he looked up at her. "No," he said, "don't hurt me. I'll tell my mother."

"You leave him alone!" Sansa screamed at her sister.

Arya whirled and heaved the sword into the air, putting her whole body into the throw. The blue steel flashed in the sun as the sword spun out over the river. It hit the water and vanished with a splash. Joffrey moaned. Arya ran off to her horse, Nymeria loping at her heels.

After they had gone, Sansa went to Prince Joffrey. His eyes were closed in pain, his breath ragged. Sansa knelt beside him. "Joffrey," she sobbed. "Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don't be afraid. I'll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you." Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair.

His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. "Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me."

-------------

When the Hound realizes he's met Arya and she's alive, the first place his mind goes is to how she ticked off Joff.

ASOS Arya VI

The Hound answered. "Seven hells. The little sister. The brat who tossed Joff's pretty sword in the river." He gave a bark of laughter. "Don't you know you're dead?"

"No, you're dead," she threw back at him.

--------------

ACOK Sansa IV (Cersei speaking)

"Joffrey will show you no such devotion, I fear. You could thank your sister for that, if she weren't dead. He's never been able to forget that day on the Trident when you saw her shame him, so he shames you in turn. You're stronger than you seem, though. I expect you'll survive a bit of humiliation. I did. You may never love the king, but you'll love his children."

 

It's no coincidence that Arya and the Hound part ways in the same chapter where they find out Joff's dead.

 

Edited by Lollygag

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Posted (edited)

In ASOS, Gendry falls from his mare, but he mounts up again and goes on :

Quote

Gendry's mare lost her footing in the mud once, going down hard on her hindquarters and spilling him from the saddle, but neither horse nor rider was hurt, and Gendry got that stubborn look on his face and mounted right up again.

 

In AFFC, his sister Mya almost falls but quickly recovers and goes on :

Quote

When the bastard girl led her mule out from beneath the shelter of the spire, the wind caught her in its teeth. Her cloak lifted, twisting and flapping in the air. Mya staggered, and for half a heartbeat it seemed as if she would be blown over the precipice, but somehow she regained her balance and went on.

 

Both of them are stubborn and strong-willed. Adversities don’t hold them back.

Edited by Gingin

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In Hebrew nur means fire and in Arabic nur means light. In Hebrew kern means light but it also means horn, hence the horned Moses fiasco, in Arabic qarn means horn but it also means nation and time. Dhulqarnain - Possesser of two Qarns - is a name given to Moses in Qur'an. Moses - according to Qur'an - is only person to speak with God directly through burning bush, in Qur'an God is referred as the Light. So who ever is Rhllors champion they have to possess two horns - horn of Joramun and horn of Dragons, two times - past and present - and two nations who ever they are, maybe a reference to Gog and Magog? 

Ice is essentially frozen water. Water magic is tied to Rhoyne. Rhoyne is tied to curse of Garin and Stonemen. Stonemen and what ever ice magic the Others are using are tied. Undead things rising harder and stronger, making them necromancers like Qyburn? 

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8 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

In Hebrew nur means fire and in Arabic nur means light. In Hebrew kern means light but it also means horn, hence the horned Moses fiasco, in Arabic qarn means horn but it also means nation and time. Dhulqarnain - Possesser of two Qarns - is a name given to Moses in Qur'an. Moses - according to Qur'an - is only person to speak with God directly through burning bush, in Qur'an God is referred as the Light. So who ever is Rhllors champion they have to possess two horns - horn of Joramun and horn of Dragons, two times - past and present - and two nations who ever they are, maybe a reference to Gog and Magog? 

Ice is essentially frozen water. Water magic is tied to Rhoyne. Rhoyne is tied to curse of Garin and Stonemen. Stonemen and what ever ice magic the Others are using are tied. Undead things rising harder and stronger, making them necromancers like Qyburn? 

Nur is a flare in Hebrew not Fire. Also Keren (not Kern) does not mean light, it means a horn or a beam or a corner. 

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40 minutes ago, hnv said:

Nur is a flare in Hebrew not Fire. Also Keren (not Kern) does not mean light, it means a horn or a beam or a corner. 

I thought it meant light since Moses returned from Mount Sinai with kerens and was depicted as  but it was supposed be light? Moses is also referred as horned in Qur'an so the confusion seem to continue. 

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1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

I thought it meant light since Moses returned from Mount Sinai with kerens and was depicted as  but it was supposed be light? Moses is also referred as horned in Qur'an so the confusion seem to continue. 

A light beam is Karen Or (“or” being light) and “koren “ translates into beaming, I think that may be the meaning of his Quran nickname but I confess that I don’t know Arabic that well

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4 minutes ago, hnv said:

A light beam is Karen Or (“or” being light) and “koren “ translates into beaming, I think that may be the meaning of his Quran nickname but I confess that I don’t know Arabic that well

Possible but not likely as qarn doesn't mean beam in Arabic though Qarn and Karen are related. 

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Posted (edited)

I often think that banal descriptions of food or nature or other small aspects of the book can be metaphors or hidden foreshadowing of things, and for once I found something so elaborate and long that it was worth writing it down:

 

In one of the Jaime chapters in AFFC, when Jaime has just arrived to the siege of Riverrun - maybe Jaime IV or something - Jaime is watching two girls wrestling in the water on the shoulders of two men.

 

 

"Jaime bet a copper star on the blond girl riding Raff the Sweetling, and lost it when the two of them went down splashing amongst the reeds.

Across the river wolves were howling, and the wind was gusting through a stand of willows, making their branches writhe and whisper. Jaime found Ser Ilyn Payne alone outside his tent, honing his greatsword with a whetstone."

 

 

 

This is my interpretation of what the text is a metaphor of:

The girls represent the Great Houses, sitting on the shoulders of their soldiers in order to win. Jaime bets on the blond girl to win the fight. The blond girl represents House Lannister or maybe even Cersei herself. She is with Raff. Their team loses, just like House Lannister will lose the coming war. (Arya kills Raff in Braavos in the "Mercy" chapter, so Raff will die too). Raff falls first and then the blond woman on top of him, since he is carrying her on his shoulders. So Raff dies at the start of Winds, and Cersei might die at its end, or in ADOS. They fall down "amongst the reeds". This could have something to do with House Reed but I don't necessarily think so. Across the river wolves are howling, which symbolises House Stark winning and prospering - the wolves are probably Nymeria and her pack, of course, making it even clearer that they are of House Stark - and after that the wind is gusting, making the branches of a willow tree writhe and wisper. The wind represents the winter and the Others. First House Stark will win over the Lannisters, and then the Others will come for the Starks. Also, the wind making the branches writhe and whisper could mean that the reemergence of the Others will make the Children of the Forest and the Old Gods move and speak again - in other words, they will once again come into the world of men and make themselves heard, like the trees are whispering. And, finally, Jaime finds Ilyn Payne, who represents death, meaning Jaime will die. And this is after Cersei has already died and House Lannister has lost.

Edited by Adam Targaryen

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31 minutes ago, Adam Targaryen said:

I often think that banal descriptions of food or nature or other small aspects of the book can be metaphors or hidden foreshadowing of things, and for once I found something so elaborate and long that it was worth writing it down:

 

In one of the Jaime chapters in AFFC, when Jaime has just arrived to the siege of Riverrun - maybe Jaime IV or something - Jaime is watching two girls wrestling in the water on the shoulders of two men.

 

 

"Jaime bet a copper star on the blond girl riding Raff the Sweetling, and lost it when the two of them went down splashing amongst the reeds.

Across the river wolves were howling, and the wind was gusting through a stand of willows, making their branches writhe and whisper. Jaime found Ser Ilyn Payne alone outside his tent, honing his greatsword with a whetstone."

 

 

 

This is my interpretation of what the text is a metaphor of:

The girls represent the Great Houses, sitting on the shoulders of their soldiers in order to win. Jaime bets on the blond girl to win the fight. The blond girl represents House Lannister or maybe even Cersei herself. She is with Raff. Their team loses, just like House Lannister will lose the coming war. (Arya kills Raff in Braavos in the "Mercy" chapter, so Raff will die too). Raff falls first and then the blond woman on top of him, since he is carrying her on his shoulders. So Raff dies at the start of Winds, and Cersei might die at its end, or in ADOS. They fall down "amongst the reeds". This could have something to do with House Reed but I don't necessarily think so. Across the river wolves are howling, which symbolises House Stark winning and prospering - the wolves are probably Nymeria and her pack, of course, making it even clearer that they are of House Stark - and after that the wind is gusting, making the branches of a willow tree writhe and wisper. The wind represents the winter and the Others. First House Stark will win over the Lannisters, and then the Others will come for the Starks. Also, the wind making the branches writhe and whisper could mean that the reemergence of the Others will make the Children of the Forest and the Old Gods move and speak again - in other words, they will once again come into the world of men and make themselves heard, like the trees are whispering. And, finally, Jaime finds Ilyn Payne, who represents death, meaning Jaime will die. And this is after Cersei has already died and House Lannister has lost.

Your selection of quotes about Raff the Sweetling falling and splashing in the water with a woman/girl riding on his back reminds me of only one thing:

In the Mercy chapter of TWOW

Spoiler

Arya throws Raff's body into the canal (water) after she kills him.  He tries to 'ride' the girl that is Mercy (Arya in disguise), and he 'loses' again, this time the cost is his life, not just a contest and some coppers. 

I should have helped him down the steps before I killed him. Now I’ll need to drag him all the way to the canal and roll him in. The eels would do the rest.

I cannot help but imagine I hear his splash, LOL

 

Hopefully, I've hidden the TWOW text and mention in the spoiler tags.  It's been so long, I'm not sure I have done so correctly. 

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Re-reading ASoS right now and Hoster Tully's funeral in chapter 35, Catelyn IV seems to be a mishmash of different traditions.

So his body is put in a boat and sent down the river by seven bearers for the Seven (there's even two representatives of the old gods in there with Robb and Tytos Blackwood). We don't hear about any sort of vigil being held in the sept. 

Then the boat is set on fire, which means the body would begin burning before the boat breaks and sinks to the bottom of the river.

And then it was gone . . . drifting downriver still, perhaps, or broken up and sinking. The weight of his armor would carry Lord Hoster down to rest in the soft mud of the riverbed, in the watery halls where the Tullys held eternal court, with schools of fish as their last attendants. (Catelyn IV, ASoS 35)

Watery halls is first mentioned by Catelyn. After that, it comes up only in the ironborn POVs. It had me wondering if these funeral rights were Tully traditions that go back centuries, or if the Tullys adopted traditions from the ironborn after the riverlands were conquered.

And the body possibly burning is a Targaryen thing. They are the only ones we know of (outside the wildlings) who burn their dead. I'd have said it's a Lord of Light thing but we don't know how those bodies are disposed of. 

But after Catelyn is killed, she is thrown in the river then brought back by the Lord of Light. So there seems to be something of an association with Tully - fire- water. 

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