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Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18

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55 minutes ago, Adam Targaryen said:

In one of the Jaime chapters in AFFC, ... Jaime is watching two girls wrestling in the water on the shoulders of two men.

"Jaime bet a copper star on the blond girl riding Raff the Sweetling, and lost it when the two of them went down splashing amongst the reeds.

Across the river wolves were howling, and the wind was gusting through a stand of willows, making their branches writhe and whisper. Jaime found Ser Ilyn Payne alone outside his tent, honing his greatsword with a whetstone."

This is my interpretation of what the text is a metaphor of:

The girls represent the Great Houses, sitting on the shoulders of their soldiers in order to win. Jaime bets on the blond girl to win the fight. The blond girl represents House Lannister or maybe even Cersei herself. She is with Raff. Their team loses, just like House Lannister will lose the coming war. ... Raff falls first and then the blond woman on top of him, since he is carrying her on his shoulders. So Raff dies at the start of Winds, and Cersei might die at its end, or in ADOS. They fall down "amongst the reeds". This could have something to do with House Reed but I don't necessarily think so. Across the river wolves are howling, which symbolizes House Stark winning and prospering - the wolves are probably Nymeria and her pack, of course, making it even clearer that they are of House Stark - and after that the wind is gusting, making the branches of a willow tree writhe and whisper. The wind represents the winter and the Others. First House Stark will win over the Lannisters, and then the Others will come for the Starks. Also, the wind making the branches writhe and whisper could mean that the reemergence of the Others will make the Children of the Forest and the Old Gods move and speak again - in other words, they will once again come into the world of men and make themselves heard, like the trees are whispering. And, finally, Jaime finds Ilyn Payne, who represents death, meaning Jaime will die. And this is after Cersei has already died and House Lannister has lost.

Nice catch and good analysis!

I would place a stronger emphasis on Arya if I were interpreting this, not all Starks. Willow trees are associated with Arya when when she is captured by the Brotherhood Without Banners and through the characters Willow and Jeyne who manage the Inn at the Crossroads after Masha Heddle is killed. You also note that the wolves are probably led by Nymeria, which would be another close link to Arya.

Branches that writhe and whisper do seem to have a strong Stark association: Robb wins a victory at the battle of the Whispering Wood, but he fails to listen to the whispering (Catelyn hears it) and decides to escalate the war, leading to his eventual death. On the road with Yoren, Arya practices her water dancing in the branches of a tree at one point.

Theon has a famous scene at Winterfell in or near the gods wood. The wind blows off his hood and he imagines the voice of Bran Stark calling his name. I would compare this scene to Theon's scene, with Jaime in the role of Theon and Arya as the windy "voice" of the tree. (See also Theon's observation in ACoK, I believe, where he notes that Asha's ship is called Black Wind and Robb Stark's wolf is called Grey Wind. Theon concludes that Starks and Greyjoys are "all windy.")

As I recall, Raff the Sweetling is included in Arya's "prayer" because he killed Lommy Greenhands, the dyer's apprentice, stabbing him through the throat. I think GRRM may be having fun with a "what's dead can never dye" religion, not to be confused with the refrain familiar to followers of the Drowned God (although there is also some drowning imagery in the scene described by Jaime). In TWoW,

Spoiler

Arya will see dyers in the audience of the play that is about to be performed. She spots Raff the Sweetling in the same audience and lures him away to his death, as you point out. I think the appearance of the dyers in the audience may be a sign that Arya has completed her training as an assassin - there will be plenty of dying, now that she has finished her apprenticeship - and the murder of Raff shows the reversal of the situation that occurred with the death of Lommy.

I also assume that references to reeds are linked to House Reed, but I'm not sure yet what the connection might be. Perhaps more relevant for this scene with Jaime is a comparison to the death of Joffrey, who is kind of a mini-Jaime in a lot of strange ways. When Joffrey dies, the Tyrion POV says that his last gasps are like a person trying to suck a river through a reed.

Combat in a river also has significance as an allusion to the one-on-one combat of Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryen in the Red Fork. In fact, isn't the Ruby Ford fairly close to the place where Jaime is observing this game?

I would also note that Prince Doran first describes the water game where the smaller player sits on the shoulders of the taller player and tries to topple the other team. So this is definitely one of the "Game of Thrones" games, and you are right to see it in terms of a metaphor for the power struggle that is central to the books.

To me, the interesting twist is that Jaime places his bet based on the assumption that the two human pairs are the players in the game. It doesn't occur to him to bet on the writhing trees, the wind, the reeds that don't help drowning people, or the wolves in the background, all of which may be competitors in the game.

Finally, I would guess that Ser Ilyn might also represent a Stark. He seems to function as the Lannister direwolf, most closely resembling the silent white wolf Ghost. Once you get into the Ghost symbolism, I think you could make a case for Ser Ilyn as an embodiment of Ned Stark. Ser Ilyn no longer carries the sword Ice, but he was the last person to use the sword, as far as we know. There is a famous early scene of Catelyn watching Ned cleaning the blade of the greatsword after he has executed a man. I think GRRM may be alluding to that by having Jaime come upon Ser Ilyn in the same posture immediately after Jaime sees the "death" foreshadowed by the game in the river.

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Posted (edited)

The seasons could be taken from the Abrahamic religions; 7 years plenty and 7 years famine of Joseph.

Also miracle of 19 in Quran and 19 forts of the Wall perhaps?

Selasori qhoran is the perfumed seneschak, seneschal is a steward, hand of the king is a steward as well. Davos who lacks  fingers on one hand is a hand of the king.

Qhorin/Qhoran perhaps?

Qhorin half hand lacks half a sword hand, Wall is described as a sword on some places and as a snake or as serpentine on the  side with hills. Jon uses a bastard, or a hand and a half sword. Also Stone snake who resides on the hilled side?

@Seams you may find something useful in this mess of mish mash information.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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Some more sadness revolving around Stannis, and also more insight to his personality I guess. Came upon this while searching material for a  post on Valonqar, which I’ll post some time later.

These are Cressen’s thoughts, well known, I know

Quote

Robert will be delighted with him, and perhaps in time he will even teach Stannis how to laugh."

It saddened Cressen to remember that letter. No one had ever taught Stannis how to laugh, least of all the boy Patchface

...

He was always summoned for feasts, seated near the salt, close to Lord Stannis. His lord's face swam up before him, not the man he was but the boy he had been, standing cold in the shadows while the sun shone on his elder brother. Whatever he did, Robert had done first, and better. Poor boy . . . he must hurry, for his sake.

...

You are too ill and too confused to be of use to me, old man." It sounded so like Lord Stannis's voice, but it could not be, it could not. "Pylos will counsel me henceforth. Already he works with the ravens, since you can no longer climb to the rookery. I will not have you kill yourself in my service."

Maester Cressen blinked. Stannis, my lord, my sad sullen boy, son I never had, you must not do this, don't you know how I have cared for you, lived for you, loved you despite all? Yes, loved you, better than Robert even, or Renly, for you were the one unloved, the one who needed me most. Yet all he said was, "As you command, my lord, but . . . but I am hungry. Might not I have a place at your table?" At your side, I belong at your side . . .

 

 

Here was supposed to be Stannis’ thoughts on Cressne’s death. may add them if I find them.

 

Anyways, I never noticed this

Quote

"Y-your Grace, my order is sworn to serve, we... "

"I know all about your vows. What I want to know is what was in the letter that you sent to Winterfell. Did you perchance tell Lord Bolton where to find us?"

"S-sire." Round-shouldered Tybald drew himself up proudly.

"The rules of my order forbid me to divulge the contents of Lord Arnolf's letters."

"Your vows are stronger than your bladder, it would seem."

 Your Grace must understand — "

"Must I?" The king shrugged. "If you say so. You are a man of learning, after all. I had a maester on Dragonstone who was almost a father to me. I have great respect for your order and its vows. Ser Clayton does not share my feelings, though. He learned all he knows in the wynds of Flea Bottom. Were I to put you in his charge, he might strangle you with your own chain or scoop your eye out with a spoon."

The feelings were mutual, but Stannis isn’t one to show them

 

and  another quote, Stannis and vows again

Quote

"I see." Jon's tone was wary. What does he want of me? "I have no love for Lord Bolton or his son, but the Night's Watch cannot take up arms against them. Our vows prohibit—"

"I know all about your vows. Spare me your rectitude, Lord Snow, I have strength enough without you.

 

 

Also I must say, Stannis humor at it’s best as well :rofl:

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/9/2019 at 5:15 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Selasori qhoran is the perfumed seneschal, seneschal is a steward, hand of the king is a steward as well. Davos who lacks  fingers on one hand is a hand of the king.

Qhorin/Qhoran perhaps?

Qhorin half hand lacks half a sword hand, Wall is described as a sword on some places and as a snake or as serpentine on the  side with hills. Jon uses a bastard, or a hand and a half sword. Also Stone snake who resides on the hilled side?

@Seams you may find something useful in this mess of mish mash information.

I love mish mashes!

I hadn't thought to connect the bastard sword of Jon Snow to his bond with Qhorin Half Hand. Nice catch! When Mormont forgives Jon for attempting desertion, he tells him to pick up his sword because he needs Jon Snow's wolf and his blood to go ranging beyond the Wall. Soon he introduces Qhorin to Jon Snow and Qhorin becomes a new mentor for Jon, introducing him to the Frost Fangs. There does seem to be a parallel there.

I have a tentative, sneaking suspicion that Qhorin was selected for the ranging mission out of a sort of Night's Watch Valhalla, if there is such a thing. This probably needs its own thread (green light from me to anyone who wants to start a discussion) but I suspect the Shadow Tower is where dead Night's Watch guys go until they can die in such a way that they truly rest in peace. (Based on Qhorin's apparent relief when Jon Snow kills him, I would say that having one's throat cut is the right way to really truly die once and for all. Or maybe it has to do with the bastard sword connection again, and Long Claw scratching his throat. Or Valyrian Steel? But maybe it has to do with cremation of remains, as with the Free Folk.) Dalbridge, Ebben and Stonesnake may also be drawn from this undead group of Night's Watch brothers.

Further complications: The Shield Hall that Jon reopens at Castle Black closely resembles the description of Valhalla with golden shields for a roof, so I may be wrong about the purpose of the Shadow Tower. We don't know what the Shadow Tower looks like. I also think that some Night's Watch characters are aspects split off from Jeor Mormont: Qhorin and Yoren may both be sort of "Lord Commander in disguise" characters. (Qhorin eats part of the breakfast of hard-boiled eggs prepared for the Lord Commander. I see the same thing with "Bloodraven in disguise" characters in the Dunk and Egg stories.)

But to your point: I wouldn't put Qhorin in the category of a seneschal or steward or Hand of the King, in spite of the similarity between Qhoran and Qhorin. It does seem as if GRRM is giving us a clear hint about the need to compare the ranger with the ship. If I were to guess right now, I might posit that the man and the ship are guides: Qhorin and the others in the ranging party lead Jon on his coming-of-age journey in the wilderness that leads to romantic love and life as a wildling; the ship takes Tyrion on a similar journey to break with his past and emerge in a new identity (as a slave and a little person schooled by Penny in embracing his true nature). Interestingly, Stonesnake could be compared to Mya Stone, who guides Sansa / Alayne down the mountain, and possibly to Small Paul who helps Sam Tarly to keep moving on their long march through the snow.

But details of the Selaesori Qhoran clearly resemble Tywin, in my mind. The figurehead with its constipated look and the pig shit in Tyrion and Penny's cabin are part of the shit and stench motif linked to Tywin (and to Jaime's "shit for honor" motto). In the big storm, the figurehead loses its arm. This seems more like a Jaime allusion to me, but maybe Qhorin's lost fingers are part of the same overall symbol of maimed arms and hands. If Qhorin is an aspect or manifestation of father-figure Jeor Mormont, then a comparison to Tywin does make some sense.

That GRRM. Such a chess player, making all of these complicated literary moves that I don't understand!

Edited by Seams

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13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

The feelings were mutual, but Stannis isn’t one to show them

While we don't know what kind of relationship Stannis had with his actual father, Lord Steffon, we should not make too much of that. Cressen loved Stannis sort of like a son - but Stannis still discarded Cressen as soon as the man was no longer of any use to him. And he did clearly not punish Melisandre for killing Cressen - which she did. She could have spilled the wine after she drank it down. But she did not. And Stannis did nothing.

He also allowed Selyse to publicly mock and humiliate Cressen - something that fits with Mel's characterization of Stannis: Jon should fear his silences, not his words. If Stannis shuts you out, keeps you out of the loop, doesn't talk to you you are essentially a dead man walking. He will either kill you yourself or not lift a finger to protect you when those people at his court who won't get rid of you destroy you.

Whatever Cressen once was to Stannis doesn't matter in his Prologue. There Cressen has become an obstacle that has to be removed if Stannis wants to follow Melisandre's path. And that's what he wants to do.

In general, though, I think there is much to be gained from Cressen's Prologue for Stannis' entire story. The Gothic atmosphere of Dragonstone, Shireen's fears and dreams, Patchface and his story, Stannis' decision to choose Melisandre over Cressen - all that hints at the ending of his story, regardless how this will unfold.

Patchface likely is going to be as crucial and important a weird character as Hodor is - but we still have no idea what he is going to do. Mel's fear of Patches in ADwD is another important clue in that direction, perhaps one of the most important in her chapter, yet we still have no idea what that could mean.

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@The Fattest Leech this one’s for you. It’s so subtle I doubt anyone ever found it but if someone’s beaten me to it, well, still worth reminding.

Jon sending Val beyond the Wall

Quote

My lady, you do not have to do this. The risk—"

"—is mine, Lord Snow. And I am no southron lady but a woman of the free folk. I know the forest better than all your black-cloaked rangers. It holds no ghosts for me."

I hope not. Jon was counting on that, trusting that Val could succeed where Black Jack Bulwer and his companions had failed. She need fear no harm from the free folk, he hoped … but both of them knew too well that wildlings were not the only ones waiting in the woods. "You have sufficient food?"

 

This takes place near the wall, just after Tormund and Jon are done negotiating.

Quote

 Ghost was the only protection Jon needed; the direwolf could sniff out foes, even those who hid their enmity behind smiles.

Ghost was gone, though. Jon peeled off one black glove, put two fingers in his mouth, and whistled. "Ghost! To me."

...

Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belongtogether. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.

 

The forest holds no ghosts for Val, Snow does. Jon Snow.

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10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@The Fattest Leech this one’s for you. It’s so subtle I doubt anyone ever found it but if someone’s beaten me to it, well, still worth reminding.

Jon sending Val beyond the Wall

 

This takes place near the wall, just after Tormund and Jon are done negotiating.

 

The forest holds no ghosts for Val, Snow does. Jon Snow.

Wonderful! And it is exactly that. Val isn't some woman to be bowled over and taken advantage of... just like GRRM's proto-Val characters such as the Bitterspeaker/Janis, Melantha Jhirl, Valerie, and a few others.

I am rather convinced after reading so much GRRM in general that Val (and Morna, Borroq, Tormund) are all going to play a very crucial role in saving Jon (on many levels). Val knows what Jon is and she will help facilitate his recovery and the free folk integration as the story progresses. For sure :D

Thanks Crow! :cheers:

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Nothing major, just a little haha I noticed on a relisten...

  • A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

"Until this morning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either," Catelyn reminded him.

"I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully," he said with a rueful smile. He slid Ice back into its sheath. "You did not come here to tell me crib tales. I know how little you like this place. What is it, my lady?"

  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

"To you they are only arrow fodder. I can make better use of them upon the Wall. Give them to me to do with as I will, and I'll show you where to find your victory … and men as well."

Stannis rubbed the back of his neck. "You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Ned Stark father you on some fishwife? How many men?"

"Two thousand. Perhaps three."

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Posted (edited)

Daario's introduction;

[snip] Daario Naharis was flampboyant even for a Tyroshi. His beard was cut into three prongs and dyed blue, the same color as his eyes and the curly hair that fell to his collar. His pointed mustachios were painted gold. His clothes were all shades of yellow; a foam of Myrish lace the color of butter spilled from his collar and cuffs, his doublet was sewn with brass medallions in the shape of dandelions, and ornamental goldwork crawled up his high leather boots to his thighs. Gloves of soft yellow suede were tucked into a belt of gilded rings, and his fingernails were enameled blue. (Dany IV, ASoS 41)

Daario is dressed in all kinds of shades of yellow, so I decided to take a look at the meaning of the color. The color has a lot of good qualities, freshness, honor, loyalty and so on and the list goes on and on, but it also represents cowardice (yellow-bellied) and deceit. In the same chapter Daario turns on his co-captains (deceit) and kills them and goes over to Dany's side. So there is the possibility that the colors Daario dresses in are telling of his intentions.

The interesting thing, though, is the choice of flower, brass medallions in the shape of dandelions. The word dandelion comes from French, dent-de-lion, lion's tooth. I don't think there's any kind of association to be made here, but Lion's Tooth was the name of Joffrey's sword that Arya threw into the Trident. The blade is described in Sansa I, AGoT 15, as gleaming blue steel. Blue is the other color we get for Daario. His hair is blue, his beard is blue, his nails are blue, his eyes look blue because of the hair color.

And no, I don't think Daario is some long lost Lannister (pretty sure he's our Blackfyre), but this might be interesting if wet take into account where where Tywin and Aerys started and where they ended. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Posted (edited)
On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 10:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

While we don't know what kind of relationship Stannis had with his actual father, Lord Steffon, we should not make too much of that. Cressen loved Stannis sort of like a son - but Stannis still discarded Cressen as soon as the man was no longer of any use to him. And he did clearly not punish Melisandre for killing Cressen - which she did. She could have spilled the wine after she drank it down. But she did not. And Stannis did nothing.

He also allowed Selyse to publicly mock and humiliate Cressen - something that fits with Mel's characterization of Stannis: Jon should fear his silences, not his words. If Stannis shuts you out, keeps you out of the loop, doesn't talk to you you are essentially a dead man walking. He will either kill you yourself or not lift a finger to protect you when those people at his court who won't get rid of you destroy you.

Whatever Cressen once was to Stannis doesn't matter in his Prologue. There Cressen has become an obstacle that has to be removed if Stannis wants to follow Melisandre's path. And that's what he wants to do.

In general, though, I think there is much to be gained from Cressen's Prologue for Stannis' entire story. The Gothic atmosphere of Dragonstone, Shireen's fears and dreams, Patchface and his story, Stannis' decision to choose Melisandre over Cressen - all that hints at the ending of his story, regardless how this will unfold.

Patchface likely is going to be as crucial and important a weird character as Hodor is - but we still have no idea what he is going to do. Mel's fear of Patches in ADwD is another important clue in that direction, perhaps one of the most important in her chapter, yet we still have no idea what that could mean.

It may all be as you say,, but bear in mind that back then Melisandre was trying to gain Stannis's favor still.. she might have foretell Cressen death that day at that location, like she did with jon snow couple of times at the wall, to gain his Faith on her powers... (foretelling attempts on her life is like one of the first things they learn and shit..)

Stannis was weirder than usual... repelling cressen, he almost looks to me like he wants cressen everywhere but there.

Stannis didn't take her serious enough back then, she had selyse favor and all.. I think he didn't want to believe her powers but also suspected she was no ordinary person.

Edited by Chancho

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Posted (edited)

(My apologies if this observation has already been made.)

Despite the fact that the forbidden fruit is unnamed in the Bible, the apple is traditionally identified as such and therefore associated with temptation and earthly desires. In the Vale we can find several references to apples.

Lothor Brune is nicknamed Apple-Eater because he killed members of House Fossoway, whose sigil is an apple.

One of the serving girls is called Mela, which is Italian for “apple”.

The servant named Grisel offers a platter with apples, pears, pomegranates, grapes and a blood orange to Littlefinger and Sansa.

Also, I believe that Myranda Royce can be compared to an apple, since we know that she is plump and has round red cheeks.

Edited by Gingin

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Posted (edited)

There is a good chance that what Cressen put in the cup wasn't poison and that Melisandre slipped the actual poison into the cup after she had drank. 

Key points :

Cressen leaves the poison unattended on his table for hours whilst he falls asleep .

Melisandre drinks first. 

Edited by ManBearPig

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2 hours ago, ManBearPig said:

There is a good chance that what Cressen put in the cup wasn't poison and that Melisandre slipped the actual poison into the cup after she had drank. 

Key points :

Cressen leaves the poison unattended on his table for hours whilst he falls asleep .

Melisandre drinks first. 

Hmm... The what'd he put in the cup? 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hmm... The what'd he put in the cup? 

 Melisandre saw the poison layed out in full view on his desk whilst he was sleeping and realised what he was up to. 

She took the poison and replaced it with something which looked the same but was harmless. 

After she had drunk, she slipped the real poison into the cup.

 

Edited by ManBearPig

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19 minutes ago, ManBearPig said:

 Melisandre saw the poison layed out in full view on his desk whilst he was sleeping and realised what he was up to. 

She took the poison and replaced it with something which looked the same but was harmless. 

After she had drunk, she slipped the real poison into the cup.

 

She doesn't have to eat or drink, although she can put on a show of doing so.  I don't think she metabolizes food and therefore can't really be poisoned.

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In Soms of the Dragon, Fire and Blood, the George wrote that "no Dornish Lords ever took to the field" with the first Vulture King in what was called the Second Dornish War. 

But just just a few paragraphs earlier, the George wrote the following...

Quote

So large had his host become that the Vulture King made an ill-considered decision and divided his strength.  Whilst he marched west against Nightsong and Horn Hill with half the Dornish power, the other half went east to besiege Stonehelm, seat of House Swann, under the command of Lord Walter Wyl, the son of the Widow-lover. 

 

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In Jon IX in ADWD, there this line: 

Quote

When princes failed to repay the Iron Bank, new princes sprang up from nowhere and took their thrones.

This looks like a possible hint that Aegon will take the IT, at least for a while. 

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Posted (edited)

I think I may have already posted about this, but what the Haigh!

From Meera's story about the KotLT.

"Amidst all this merriment, the little crannogman spied the three squires who'd attacked him. One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well." (Bran II, ASoS 24)

"As my prince commands. The daughter of the castle was the queen of love and beauty, with four brothers and an uncle to defend her, but all four sons of Harrenhal were defeated on the first day. Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened, the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well. But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists." (Bran II, ASoS 24)

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."
"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. [snip]" (Bran II, ASoS 24)

Arya arriving at the Twins;

[snip] The knight bore spear and sword while his squires carried longbows. The badges on their jerkins were smaller versions of the sigil sewn on their master's surcoat, a black pitchfork on a golden bar sinister, upon a russet field [snip] She might have risked it even if they'd worn the Umber giant or the Glover fist, but she did not know this pitchfork knight. (Arya X, ASoS 50)

"Salt pork never pleases me." The pitchfork knight gave Clegane only the most cursory glance, and paid no attention at all to Arya, but he looked long and hard at Stranger. [snip] "How did you come by this beast?" the pitchfork knight demanded. (Arya X, ASoS 50)

The Hound providing the pitchfork knight's identity;

"Ser Donnel Haigh," he said. "I've taken more horses off him than I can count. Armor as well. Once I near killed him in a mêlée." (Arya X, ASoS 50)

Possible identity of one of the knights defeated in joust by the Knight of the Laughing Tree (I think it's spelled out, if anything).

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Posted (edited)

On the subject of Renly’s sexuality- I picked this up on my second read of AGOT.  Ned’s ruminations about Renly and the portrait of Margery in the locket. 

 

Quote

Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.

 

That just made me laugh.  If it’s a clue, it is subtle and well-executed because the turn of phrase also fits the situation perfectly at face value. 

Edited by Reekazoid
Bold

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Posted (edited)

Three knights and their squires from Harrenhal: Harys Haigh, Boros Blount, and Danwell Frey; squires - Raymund Frey, Lame Lothar, Geremy Frey or Merrett Frey.

All three squires, most likely, were Freys. Harys Haigh took a Frey as his squire, because Harys' mother was Perrianne Frey. Harys is the first son, so it's more likely, that he, and not his younger brother, Donnel, was representing their House at that Tournament. And those three knights were winning on first days of Tournament, until they were defeated by the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Donnel Haigh is a loser, so it's more likely, that one of those three knights was Harys, not Donnel.

Boros is the only member of House Blount, that was introduced in ASOIAF. He's not a very popular guy, but he still was made a Kingsguard, which means, that as a fighter/knight/defender, he's not so bad. Which fits into info given by GRRM about those three knights - that they were winners, and that they weren't loved by public.

Danwell Frey is married with Wynafrei Whent. In my opinion, she is that daughter of Shella and Walter Whent, the original Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal. Possibly, when Danwell was winning on first day of jousting, Wynafrei gave him her favour, and later they got married. Maybe, not exactly out of love, more because of Walder's political ambitions. Several years before 281, Walder was married with Sarya Whent. She died childless. So, it's likely, that Walder was aiming to replace a dead Whent in his family tree, with a new one, thus he made his son, Danwell, to court Wynafrei Whent, that was daughter of Lord and Lady of Harrenhal.

There's one inconsistency - Meera said, that all three squires that attacked her father, were not older than 15 years old. Though, maybe, it was said just to make that story to sound more dramatic. Because there's no way, that those three had showed to Howland their IDs, when they were beating him. So he could have been wrong about their ages, or it was said to add more dramatism into his story. That supposedly they all were younger than him, and disrespected him, even though he was a man grown, 16yo. Or the ages of Freys in the Wikia are incorrect (there are mistakes there, like the year of birth of Robert Arryn, it's writen there, that he was born in 292, but his year of birth is 291).

Edited by Megorova

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