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Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18

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Moqorro's vision about the dragons;

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"
"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all." (Tyrion VIII, ADwD 33)

I remembered something from the Griffin Reborn chapter;

A bride for our bright prince. (The Griffin Reborn, ADWD 61)

Rhaegar was a dragon. Jon Connington thinking of him as "bright prince" would also make him a "bright dragon."

So following that, I went back to Bran I, AGoT 1 and the description he gives of Jon.

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, gracefully and quick where his half brother was strong and fast. (Bran I, AGoT 1)

This would make Jon a dark dragon. He doesn't look like the other Targaryens. He doesn't have the Valyrian look.

I'll leave the rest of the vision out of this because it falls into speculation territory.

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32 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This would make Jon a dark dragon. He doesn't look like the other Targaryens. He doesn't have the Valyrian look.

Hmm, wouldn't that also indicate Jon is a false/mummer's dragon? 

Old   Young
True   False
Bright   Dark

 

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20 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

Hmm, wouldn't that also indicate Jon is a false/mummer's dragon? 

Old   Young
True   False
Bright   Dark

Before going further, I do wanna say that I do not believe the mummer's dragon means that the character is a fake dragon. False doesn't necessarily mean fake to me. It can also mean treacherous, faithless. This is the meaning I've always gone with.

And Jon wouldn't be the first Targaryen with darker features. I can name 3 off the top of my head who took their mothers' coloring. Baelor Breakspear, Duncan the Small and little Rhaenys.

I posted this about blue hair on the previous page. It might give you an idea where I'm at in my thoughts about true/false. This isn't the thread to speculate, but if you want to start one, I'll be happy to join in.

 

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7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I do wanna say that I do not believe the mummer's dragon means that the character is a fake dragon. False doesn't necessarily mean fake to me.

The connection seems to be implied by lines like this. 

Quote

That was why Roose Bolton had clothed him as a lord again, to play his part in this mummer's farce. Once that was done, once their false Arya had been wedded and bedded, Bolton would have no more use for Theon Turncloak.

So one might consider the false Arya as a mummer's Arya and a false dragon as a mummer's dragon. 

 

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8 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

The connection seems to be implied by lines like this. 

So one might consider the false Arya as a mummer's Arya and a false dragon as a mummer's dragon. 

I know all the arguments about the mummer's dragon. But I disagree that it means that the mummer's dragon is a fake. I think the "slayer of lies" triad is linked to Azor Ahai. 

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So Hardhome;

He did. Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. (Jon VIII, ADwD 39)

I've read this passage so many times, but I never even clocked in on the possibility that the people of Hardhome may have been carried off into slavery. That only leaves one option as to who or what happened in Hardhome if that's the case.

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I remember asking Where else do we see a long hall with high stone arches four years ago...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/125622-waking-the-dragon/

I think I found it...

Quote

Inside the manse, the air was heavy with the scent of spices, pinchfire and sweet lemon and cinnamon. They were escorted across the entry hall, where a mosaic of colored glass depicted the Doom of Valyria. Oil burned in black iron lanterns all along the walls. Beneath an arch of twining stone leaves, a eunuch sang their coming. 

Daenerys I, Game III

This is Drogo's manse, where Danerys's story began. She wanted to run back to the red door, but she could not. From Drogo's manse, her story took her to the Dothraki Sea and beyond, where she woke the dragon. 

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On 11/17/2019 at 7:18 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I never noticed that the Targaryens were lying when they called themselves rulers of the Seven Kingdoms. For 188 years, they only ruled six.

No, they ruled over seven kingdoms. Dorne made it eight. At the beginning of the Conquest, it was only seven including Dorne, but that was because the Riverlands and the Iron Islands was one kingdom, under Harren the Black. Then the Hoare kingdom was split into the Iron Islands and the Riverlands once again, and the total number of kingdoms in Westeros became eight.

One can of course say that the Riverlands was not a kingdom when it became free from the Iron Islands, because it was then ruled by a lord, Edmyn Tully, but then one can also argue that the Crownlands was the seventh kingdom in a way.

The whole thing about "Seven Kingdoms" is obviously very complicated.

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4 hours ago, Adam Targaryen said:

No, they ruled over seven kingdoms. Dorne made it eight. At the beginning of the Conquest, it was only seven including Dorne, but that was because the Riverlands and the Iron Islands was one kingdom, under Harren the Black. Then the Hoare kingdom was split into the Iron Islands and the Riverlands once again, and the total number of kingdoms in Westeros became eight.

One can of course say that the Riverlands was not a kingdom when it became free from the Iron Islands, because it was then ruled by a lord, Edmyn Tully, but then one can also argue that the Crownlands was the seventh kingdom in a way.

The whole thing about "Seven Kingdoms" is obviously very complicated.

Ok, but let me explain why I made that realization. He had Seven Kingdoms to Conquer:

Quote

“The Westeros of Aegon’s youth was divided into seven quarrelsome kingdoms, and there was hardly a time when two or three of these kingdoms were not at war with one another. The vast, cold, stony North was ruled by the Starks of Winterfell. In the deserts of Dorne, the Martell princes held sway. The gold-rich westerlands were ruled by Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the fertile Reach by the Gardeners of Highgarden. The Vale, the Fingers, and the Mountains of the Moon belonged to House Arryn…but the most belligerent kings of Aegon’s time were the two whose realms lay closest to Dragonstone, Harren the Black and Argilac the Arrogant” - Fire & Blood

And he was crowned as king of 7 when he only had 6 at the time:

Quote

“His High Holiness himself anointed Aegon with the seven oils, placed a crown upon his head, and proclaimed him Aegon of House Targaryen, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm. (“Seven Kingdoms” was the style used, though Dorne had not submitted. Nor would it, for more than a century to come.)” - Fire & Blood

Harrenhal fell and Aegon allowed the Iron Islands to choose their king, while Crownlands was disputed territory. The Riverlands were vassals to Harrenhal. And since Dorne wasn’t officially part of the 7 kingdoms until year 187, they only reigned over 6 kingdoms for 187 years but pretended like it was really 7. 

Is that incorrect?

 

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ok, but let me explain why I made that realization. He had Seven Kingdoms to Conquer:

And he was crowned as king of 7 when he only had 6 at the time:

Harrenhal fell and Aegon allowed the Iron Islands to choose their king, while Crownlands was disputed territory. The Riverlands were vassals to Harrenhal. And since Dorne wasn’t officially part of the 7 kingdoms until year 187, they only reigned over 6 kingdoms for 187 years but pretended like it was really 7. 

Is that incorrect?

 

It is known. 

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On 11/23/2019 at 3:03 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ok, but let me explain why I made that realization. He had Seven Kingdoms to Conquer:

And he was crowned as king of 7 when he only had 6 at the time:

Harrenhal fell and Aegon allowed the Iron Islands to choose their king, while Crownlands was disputed territory. The Riverlands were vassals to Harrenhal. And since Dorne wasn’t officially part of the 7 kingdoms until year 187, they only reigned over 6 kingdoms for 187 years but pretended like it was really 7. 

Is that incorrect?

 

I don't know whether Aegon had full control of the Crownlands when he was crowned by the High Septon, so I am not sure. I thought that he had but if you say that they were still disputed territories, I believe you to be correct in that. I thought that he had full control of it at the coronation but it is very possible that he did not and that you are correct. Thus Aegon can be said to not have been king over the Crownlands at the time of his coronation.

And the Riverlands can of course be considered not to be a kingdom, since it did not have a king at the time.

Thus the Kingdoms which he ruled over were The North, The Vale, The Iron Islands, The Westerlands, The Reach and The Stormlands. Six Kingdoms.

Thus what you are saying is not incorrect.

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People like to say things.

The old kings of England called themselves kings of Jerusalem. China thinks it owns Taiwan. Taiwan likewise claims all of China (and like half of Mongolia)

11 hours ago, Adam Targaryen said:

Thus the Kingdoms which he ruled over were The North, The Vale, The Iron Islands, The Westerlands, The Reach and The Stormlands. Six Kingdoms.

Dragonstone?

On 11/22/2019 at 3:54 PM, Adam Targaryen said:

The whole thing about "Seven Kingdoms" is obviously very complicated.

Maybe the word Seven, in High Valyrian, means six, or eighth. Or six to eight. Lol. These Valyrians are crazy

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On 11/17/2019 at 11:37 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So Hardhome;

He did. Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. (Jon VIII, ADwD 39)

I've read this passage so many times, but I never even clocked in on the possibility that the people of Hardhome may have been carried off into slavery. That only leaves one option as to who or what happened in Hardhome if that's the case.

It’s not only a possibility, it is a fact... 

"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.

"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed." Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. "After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhometo make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn't have room for all of them, so they said they'd just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto's think that she'll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome”.

This is from The Blind Girl chapter

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6 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

It’s not only a possibility, it is a fact... 

"I know why the Sealord seized the Goodheart. She was carrying slaves. Hundreds of slaves, women and children, roped together in her hold." Braavos had been founded by escaped slaves, and the slave trade was forbidden here.

"I know where the slaves came from. They were wildlings from Westeros, from a place called Hardhome. An old ruined place, accursed." Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell when she had still been Arya Stark. "After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhometo make repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn't have room for all of them, so they said they'd just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto's think that she'll return with more ships. The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at Hardhome”.

This is from The Blind Girl chapter

It is a fact, absolutely. I had just never noticed that wildlings may have been enslaved.

I think what happened in Hardhome six hundred years ago and what's happened in the current story are supposed to parallel.

We are told that 600 years ago, the people of Hardhome were either taken as slaves or butchered for meat (although the Skagosi seem to be blamed for this one).

In the current story, the people holed up at Hardhome have been taken into slavery as per the passage you quoted and Cotter Pyke writes Jon that the wildlings are eating their own, so enslavement and cannibalism.

The people who carried off the wildlings were two Lyseni ships. The Lyseni are descendants of the Valyrians.

Perhaps the Valyrians came to Hardhome 600 years, carried off wildlings into slavery and destroyed the town. They certainly had the firepower to do it.

But there is one thing left in Cotter Pyke's letter;

At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven to ground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune. (Jon XII, ADWD 58)

If there's supposed to be a parallel between the past and the present, then dead things in the woods, dead things in the water, might be relevant to the past as well and perhaps to the destruction of Hardhome. 

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On 11/24/2019 at 3:13 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Dragonstone?

Oh my God, you are completely right!! I didn't even think about Dragonstone. So then they DID rule over Seven Kingdoms! Even if they did not have control over the rest of the Crownlands, which I am not sure about.

Thankyou lol

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So there's a parallel of sorts going on here between Jaehaerys I and Aegon (Young Griff).

We find out in the Griffin Reborn chapter that Jon Connington means to take Storm's End and Aegon intends on leading the assault.

Then we get this in the Epilogue, ADwD , from Varys;

"[snip] Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm's End and the lords of the realm gather round him." (98-Epilogue, ADwD 72, p. 958-9)

This is the Jaehaerys scenario;

The worst blow came from Storm's End. There on the shores of Shipbreaker Bay, Lord Rogar Baratheon proclaimed young Jaehaerys Targaryen to be the true and lawful king of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Prince Jaehaerys named Lord Rogar Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King. The prince's mother, Queen Alyssa, and his sister Alysanne stood beside him as Jaehaerys unsheathed Dark Sister and vowed to end the reign of his usurping uncle. A hundred banner lords and stormland knights cheered the proclamation. (Fire and Blood: The Sons of the Dragon)

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14 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So there's a parallel of sorts going on here between Jaehaerys I and Aegon (Young Griff).

We find out in the Griffin Reborn chapter that Jon Connington means to take Storm's End and Aegon intends on leading the assault.

Then we get this in the Epilogue, ADwD , from Varys;

"[snip] Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm's End and the lords of the realm gather round him." (98-Epilogue, ADwD 72, p. 958-9)

This is the Jaehaerys scenario;

The worst blow came from Storm's End. There on the shores of Shipbreaker Bay, Lord Rogar Baratheon proclaimed young Jaehaerys Targaryen to be the true and lawful king of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Prince Jaehaerys named Lord Rogar Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King. The prince's mother, Queen Alyssa, and his sister Alysanne stood beside him as Jaehaerys unsheathed Dark Sister and vowed to end the reign of his usurping uncle. A hundred banner lords and stormland knights cheered the proclamation. (Fire and Blood: The Sons of the Dragon)

There's something essential about having the title or support of (or an alliance with) The Storm King. There's a central story in The Sworn Sword where Ser Eustace tells about The Little Lion defeating the Lannisters while his liege Lord (Gardner) is off fighting the Storm King. Taking Storm's End and securing the endorsement of the Storm Lord may be the present-day equivalent of proving divine right for a king.

Edited by Seams

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On 11/24/2019 at 9:13 AM, Hugorfonics said:

People like to say things.

The old kings of England called themselves kings of Jerusalem. China thinks it owns Taiwan. Taiwan likewise claims all of China (and like half of Mongolia)

Dragonstone?

Maybe the word Seven, in High Valyrian, means six, or eighth. Or six to eight. Lol. These Valyrians are crazy

25 or 6 to 4

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On 11/25/2019 at 8:40 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So there's a parallel of sorts going on here between Jaehaerys I and Aegon (Young Griff).

We find out in the Griffin Reborn chapter that Jon Connington means to take Storm's End and Aegon intends on leading the assault.

Then we get this in the Epilogue, ADwD , from Varys;

"[snip] Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm's End and the lords of the realm gather round him." (98-Epilogue, ADwD 72, p. 958-9)

This is the Jaehaerys scenario;

The worst blow came from Storm's End. There on the shores of Shipbreaker Bay, Lord Rogar Baratheon proclaimed young Jaehaerys Targaryen to be the true and lawful king of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Prince Jaehaerys named Lord Rogar Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King. The prince's mother, Queen Alyssa, and his sister Alysanne stood beside him as Jaehaerys unsheathed Dark Sister and vowed to end the reign of his usurping uncle. A hundred banner lords and stormland knights cheered the proclamation. (Fire and Blood: The Sons of the Dragon)

Nice.

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