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Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18

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14 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This one is in connection with The Forsaken chapter sample. The small passage is below

I was doing a re-read of Dany VII, AGoT 61 and it just hit me that what Euron tells Damphair and what he does at the end of the chapter with the priests is absolutely nothing new in the story.

... The word godswife is mentioned 12 times in the entire text and it refers only to Mirri Maz Duur.

Nice catch.

I suspect there is an additional connection to this passage, which is just a couple of chapters before Dany and Mirri's scene with the pyre:

"All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it's said they remember things otherwise forgotten. ... Lord Mormont stabbed  chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. "I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall." (AGoT, Jon IX)

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

Nice catch.

I suspect there is an additional connection to this passage, which is just a couple of chapters before Dany and Mirri's scene with the pyre:

"All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it's said they remember things otherwise forgotten. ... Lord Mormont stabbed  chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. "I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall." (AGoT, Jon IX)

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. If you could provide an explanation, it would be great.

I think that the correlation between what Dany did to birth her dragons and what Euron is about to do are very closely tied together and may be the thing that ends up tipping the scales for the Shireen sacrifice .

I think that those who think that the stone dragon in Dany's vision in the slayer of lies triad may not be that far off when they say it's Euron-related. And I'm still convinced that triad has to do with Azor Ahai. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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6 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. If you could provide an explanation, it would be great.

I think that the correlation between what Dany did to birth her dragons and what Euron is about to do are very closely tied together and may be the thing that ends up tipping the scales for the Shireen sacrifice .

I think that those who think that the stone dragon in Dany's vision in the slayer of lies triad may not be that far off when they say it's Euron-related. And I'm still convinced that triad has to do with Azor Ahai. 

Sorry if I was cryptic.

I thought you were highlighting the "holy man with holy blood" in Damphair and comparing it to the unique "godswife" hereditary status of Mirri Maz Duur. In the case of Damphair, Euron says he is refraining from killing him now because he wants to save his blood for a later purpose. In the case of Mirri Maz Duur, she is a unique ingredient for hatching a dragon.

I believe that Jeor Mormont is doing something similar with Jon Snow. He mentions Jon's unique blood, which is connected to the First Men and, therefore, to the Old Gods religion. We know that Jon will eventually be "killed" by his Night's Watch brothers, who say, "For the Watch" when they stab him, spilling his blood on the Wall.

I make no claims about Shireen or about Azor Ahai. Just seeing a similarity to the special blood / sacrifice examples you raised.

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42 minutes ago, Seams said:

I believe that Jeor Mormont is doing something similar with Jon Snow. He mentions Jon's unique blood, which is connected to the First Men and, therefore, to the Old Gods religion. We know that Jon will eventually be "killed" by his Night's Watch brothers, who say, "For the Watch" when they stab him, spilling his blood on the Wall.

Jeor Mormont is also FM and connected to the religion of the old gods. And he is killed by men of the NW, although for different reasons and in different places. I think the emphasis is being put on the Starks. Jeor believed that Jon was at the Wall to serve a purpose and he's clearly correct about that.

44 minutes ago, Seams said:

I make no claims about Shireen or about Azor Ahai. Just seeing a similarity to the special blood / sacrifice examples you raised.

No, those were my claims.

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On 5/25/2020 at 9:40 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This one is in connection with The Forsaken chapter sample. The small passage is below

  Reveal hidden contents

He stepped back and sheathed his dagger. “No, I’ll not kill you tonight. A holy man with holy blood. I may have need of that that blood…later. For now, you are condemned to live.
A holy man with holy blood, Aeron thought when his brother had climbed back onto the deck.

I was doing a re-read of Dany VII, AGoT 61 and it just hit me that what Euron tells Damphair and what he does at the end of the chapter with the priests is absolutely nothing new in the story.

"Who are you?" Dany asked her.
"I am named Mirri Maz Duur. I am godswife of this temple."

"My mother was godswife before me, and taught me all the songs and spells most pleasing to the Great Shepherd [snip]"

"A maester in Asshai," Ser Jorah mused. "Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?"

And there's more where that came from. The word godswife is mentioned 12 times in the entire text and it refers only to Mirri Maz Duur. And Mirri also gets singled out in the visions of the House of the Undying.

Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. (Dany IV, ACoK 48)

  Reveal hidden contents

MMD wasn't just some woman. She was a priestess, which means that like Damphair and the other priests Euron rounded up for his big sacrifice, she too has holy blood. And so Dany burning MMD along with Drogo's body becomes more than originally thought. On top of having the possible king's blood with Drogo, there was also the holy blood of Mirri Maz Duur. And given the vision Dany has of a dragon bursting from MMD's brow, it doesn't seem like burning Drogo's body alone would have been enough to hatch the eggs. 

And what Euron himself is doing seems to be influenced on some level by the AA prophecy, with his talk about the a new god rising.

 

Just to add on to this because there seems to be a lot of groundwork laid in the ironborn chapters;

This is Theon's return to the Iron Islands.

"Let Theon your servant be born again from the sea, as you were," Aeron Greyjoy intoned. "Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel. Nephew, do you still know the words?"
"What is dead may never die," Theon said, remembering.
"What is dead may never die," his uncle echoed, "but rises again harder and stronger. Stand." (Theon I, ACoK 11)

And we also have this about the comet;

"Every morning brings a new day, much like the old."
"In Riverrun, they would tell you different. They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A messenger from the gods."
"A sign it is," the priest agreed, "but from our god, not theirs. A burning brand it is, such as our people carried of old. It is the flame of the Drowned God brought from the sea, and it proclaims a rising tide. It is time to hoist our sails and go forth into the world with fire and sword, as he did." (Theon I, ACoK 11)

Isn't this exactly what Euron is doing in the Forsaken chapter? 

And not just that, Euron actually calls the comet "the bleeding star."
 
Spoiler

The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” 

  • Davos I, ACoK --> Mel talks about the ancient prophecy of Asshai, ". . . when the stars bleed . . ."
  • Dany I, ACoK ---> The Dothraki named the comet "the Bleeding Star"
  • Dany II, ACoK --> The Bleeding Star led me to Qarth
  • Davos III, ASoS --> Mel again talking: "When the red stars bleed . . ." // "The bleeding star has come and gone . . ."
  • Sam III, AFfC --> Maester Aemon: "I see a red star bleeding in the sky . . ." 
  • Sam IV, AFfC --> "Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet." 
  • Sam V, AFfC --> Marwyn: "Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy."
  • Tyrion VI, ADwD --> "Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world."
  • Jon X, ADwD --> Mel: "When the red stars bleed, and darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again . . ."
 
I think we can set aside what Dany says about the bleeding star for now since she doesn't know that she is subject to the prophecy. But Mel, Maester Aemon, Rhaegar, Marwyn, Benerro all talk about the bleeding star and are all about AA and I think we can safely add Euron to that list.
 
Euron is not doing anything different than what Damphair was talking about in Theon's first POV chapter. 
 
There's one more little thing. 
 
"Edric --" he stard.
"--is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." His hand swept across the Painted Table. "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me." (Davos V, ASoS)
 
Dany was metaphorically reborn in the sea, the Dothraki sea. And Euron is sailing to meet the Redwyne fleet in a sea battle. So if anything, our sociopath will likely be reborn in the sea.
Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Posted (edited)

Bran III, ACoK 21 has some really interesting things in it.

We have the introduction of the Reeds and their oath of fealty. And part of that oath explains why Howland Reed rode to war with Ned.

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help our hopeless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

Lyanna saving Howland from those squires at Harrenhal was her helping the hopeless and her riding in the lists was her seeking justice. In return for what she did, Howland rode to war and seems to have kept her ToJ secret.

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.
"I swear it by bronze and iron," his siste said.
"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together. (Bran III, ACoK 21)

I'm not going to pretend that I know what any of these mean, but the "we swear it by ice and fire" is interesting, because right after we get some exposition about the crannogmen, we hear about the song that's being played in the Great Hall: The Night That Ended.

When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking. (Bran III, ACoK 21)

The Night's Watch rides forth for the Battle for the Dawn, blowing a blast, which puts us in mind of the vows of the Night's Watch.

I am the sword in the darkness, I am the watcher on the walls, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

Bran leaves the hall and goes to bed, thinks about his father and what he told him of the Kingsguard.

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kinsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdomws. "No longer," he answered, "but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world."
"Was there one who was best of all?"
 "The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." (Bran III, ACoK 21)

It's the progression of the chapter that's pretty interesting. A pledge, a song about the Long Night and a sword called Dawn. 

One thing that I noticed is that Dawn is named something like 5 times, I think. Twice in the same Ned chapter, once in this Bran chapter and on two separate occasions in Jaime's POV.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose
hear, not here.

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In the GOT prologue, right before Gerard noticed something is wrong as the air grows cold and quiet as the Others approach, we have this line about Waymar’s cloak:


“His great stable cloak stirred behind like something half alive.”

So we’re the Others reanimating the sables in his cloak or is this just foreshadowing the reanimation of the dead?  Or is it just nothing?

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8 hours ago, level52 said:

In the GOT prologue, right before Gerard noticed something is wrong as the air grows cold and quiet as the Others approach, we have this line about Waymar’s cloak:
“His great sable cloak stirred behind like something half alive.”

So were the Others reanimating the sables in his cloak or is this just foreshadowing the reanimation of the dead?  Or is it just nothing?

It is definitely not nothing.

I like the idea of the reanimated sables!

There is some kind of symbolism around weasels - the Frey family is compared to stoats (and this is probably linked to "toasts" offered at weddings and other celebration feasts where wine is consumed). Arya meets a girl called Weasel (and tells her to run away) and then calls herself Weasel. Arya also pictures herself this way on the banks of the God's Eye lake: "She wished she could take off her clothes and swim, gliding through the warm water like an skinny pink otter." Otters are aquatic weasels, so there may be a continuing link to the sables through all of these animal symbols. Others have also pointed out the martens are a type of weasel and may be wordplay on GRRM's surname.

Although Ser Waymar was not the First Ranger of the Night's Watch, he was the first ranger introduced to readers, for what that's worth. I suspect there is wordplay around "First Ranger" and "Fur Stranger" that links Ser Waymar's famous cloak to that important role in the Night's Watch hierarchy and to the "grim reaper" god among the seven New Gods. After Benjen Stark, the "real" First Ranger, disappears, the acting role is filled by Jaremy Rykker, who wears a sable-trimmed cloak. When Jaremy is wighted, Thoren Smallwood takes his cloak and tries to claim the title of First Ranger, but Jeor Mormont denies that Thoren has been given the title. It's as if each successor is a pale imitation of a real Fur Stranger, first with a cloak that is not entirely made of sable and next with the used cloak of a dead/zombiefied colleague but no authorization from the lord commander to assume the official title. The phrase "assuming the mantle" comes to mind.

In the prologue POV, Will recalls Gared making fun of Ser Waymar's cloak, joking that the young high-born ranger had personally beheaded each of the sables used in the cloak. This is literary irony, of course, because Gared will soon be beheaded by Ned Stark who advocates that the man who passes the sentence must wield the sword when executing the King's Justice. Is the message to the reader that Ser Waymar was executing the little weasels for perceived crimes? What does it mean that the executioner then wears the skins of those he has killed: is it a sort of Ebenezer Scrooge / Jacob Marley situation, where he drags a heavy chain in the afterlife, with each link representing an incident of meanness?

GRRM often shows us that people who die are reborn in creative ways. If your theory is right that the Others have reanimated the dead weasels in the cloak, this may foreshadow the reanimation of the many dead stoat-like Freys over the course of the books. Lady Stoneheart might think she is slowly but surely wiping out the family, but they may come back to haunt her like a cloak made of half-dead weasels.

Finally, the author might want us to examine the "sable" cloak in comparison to "Bael's" cloak. Bael the Bard is strongly associated with Mance Rayder (although his rich literary symbolism also links him to the dark-haired Baelor line in the Targaryen family and - probably - to Petyr Baelish). After an attack by a shadow cat, Mance has a hybrid cloak made of Night's Watch wool mended by a wildling woman with red silk from Asshai. It's a long story, but I think we are being shown Benjen and Mance as opposites and foils in Jon's life - GRRM often seems to use a father/uncle conflict to show how a character can be pulled in different directions when working out his life path. Benjen is Jon's uncle (although he has others) and Mance represents Rhaegar. The different cloaks symbolize Jon's conflicting desires, both conscious and unconscious.

 

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On 5/28/2020 at 12:01 AM, level52 said:

In the GOT prologue, right before Gerard noticed something is wrong as the air grows cold and quiet as the Others approach, we have this line about Waymar’s cloak:


“His great stable cloak stirred behind like something half alive.”

So we’re the Others reanimating the sables in his cloak or is this just foreshadowing the reanimation of the dead?  Or is it just nothing?

It's foreshadowing. 

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On 5/8/2020 at 1:35 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I have just noticed that our mysterious Black stons’ description is quite similar to that of... bitumen/asphalt. Has this been discussed before?

 

And if I recall correctly, weren't the stones at Moat Cailin strewn about like a giant's toy blocks? 

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There's something that struck me earlier. I'm going through ASoS, and Brienne's description of Renly's death. So I went back to the scene of his death. 

"I beg you in the name of the Mother," Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . . 
"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. (Catelyn IV, ACoK 33)

Brienne's description;
 
"Lies. Lady Catelyn was there when His Grace was murdered, she saw. There was a shadow. The candles guttered and the air grew cold, and there was blood --"
"Oh, very good." Jaime laughed. "Your wits are quicker than mine, I confess it. When they found me standing over my dead king king, I never thought to say, 'No, no, it wasn't me, it was a shadow, a terrible cold shadow.'" (Jaime II, ASoS 11)
 
When the wights rose inside Castle Black, they brought cold with them.
The shadow that Melisandre birthed to kill Renly brought cold with it (and I'm assuming it was the same thing with the shadow that made to kill Cortnay Penrose).
The Undying are blue and cold.
 
If a shadow brings the cold it like the wights do, this could indicate that the magic shadowbinders use is not all that far off from what the warlocks and the Others use.

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11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There's something that struck me earlier. I'm going through ASoS, and Brienne's description of Renly's death. So I went back to the scene of his death. 

"I beg you in the name of the Mother," Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . . 
"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. (Catelyn IV, ACoK 33)

Brienne's description;
 
"Lies. Lady Catelyn was there when His Grace was murdered, she saw. There was a shadow. The candles guttered and the air grew cold, and there was blood --"
"Oh, very good." Jaime laughed. "Your wits are quicker than mine, I confess it. When they found me standing over my dead king king, I never thought to say, 'No, no, it wasn't me, it was a shadow, a terrible cold shadow.'" (Jaime II, ASoS 11)
 
When the wights rose inside Castle Black, they brought cold with them.
The shadow that Melisandre birthed to kill Renly brought cold with it (and I'm assuming it was the same thing with the shadow that made to kill Cortnay Penrose).
The Undying are blue and cold.
 
If a shadow brings the cold it like the wights do, this could indicate that the magic shadowbinders use is not all that far off from what the warlocks and the Others use.

Death is cold. This may not bea good answer because I'm getting ready for work. But even in the movies, or IRL?, when a demon/ghost or something else evil enters, it gets cold. Not saying you're wrong (how could I?), just trying to provide a possible explanation.

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On 6/9/2020 at 5:25 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

"Cold," said Renly

:o

Woah. Ive thought of that line so many fucking times.... And not once did it click. 

Great pickup!

On 6/9/2020 at 5:25 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If a shadow brings the cold it like the wights do, this could indicate that the magic shadowbinders use is not all that far off from what the warlocks and the Others use.

Warlocks bring the cold?

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28 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Warlocks bring the cold?

I think it's more about the warlocks using similar magic as the Others with the Undying, which I think could turn out to be important seeing as Euron has captured more than one warlock. The Undying were blue and cold, their hands were dry and cold. Coldhands has cold hands. Both Renly and Brienne felt the cold Stannis's shadow brought with him because they were standing beside each other. 

I just think there are points of connections between different magic, and the cold is connecting point. 

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think it's more about the warlocks using similar magic as the Others with the Undying, which I think could turn out to be important seeing as Euron has captured more than one warlock. The Undying were blue and cold, their hands were dry and cold. Coldhands has cold hands. Both Renly and Brienne felt the cold Stannis's shadow brought with him because they were standing beside each other. 

Gotcha. I do think theres a difference from being physically cold, like Coldhands the frostbite and feeling the cold from a distance like an other. (Brienne and Cat feeling cold is so cool!)

The undying is interesting too because Dany only feels their coldness (from a distance at first) after the magical visions, right? When the Undying start to become animated and "alive", not when she first entered the room

56 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I just think there are points of connections between different magic, and the cold is connecting point. 

I think your on to something

Edited by Hugorfonics

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Posted (edited)

I thought it was ironic that Tywin, the most powerful Lannister (whose words are 'Hear me roar'), is the one that not only doesn't "roar", but is one of the most quiet characters, known for his powerful gaze instead. Likewise, of all the Starks, it is Jon, a bastard, who does most work protecting against the "winter" that is coming. Then, the one Tully (Family, Duty, Honor) who was an outcast from the family proves to be the one fighting the most to protect the same family's heritage to the very end.

I believe there are more of the examples like this, those are the ones I could recall at the moment.

Edited by rikibobi

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Mixing up the five senses.

AGOT Prologue:

Quote

You could taste it; a nervous tension that came perilous close to fear.

There was an edge to this darkness

Listen to the darkness.

Dywen:

Quote

... there's something in the smell o' the night that I mislike.

"What is it you smell, Dywen?" asked Grenn.

The forester sucked on his spoon a moment. He had taken out his teeth. His face was leathery and wrinkled, his hands gnarled as old roots. "Seems to me like it smells . . . well . . . cold."

Is it usually (or exclusively) in the Night's Watch chapters that GRRM plays around with the five senses like this? Dywen is famous for his ability to smell cold, but the first prologue tells us that tension can be tasted and darkness can be heard.

I'm wondering whether the mixed up senses might be related to Gared's losses over the years of ears, finger, etc. in the cold?

Quote

"I've had the cold in me too, lordling." Gared pulled back his hood, giving Ser Waymar a good long look at the stumps where his ears had been. "Two ears, three toes, and the little finger off my left hand. I got off light. We found my brother frozen at his watch, with a smile on his face."

 

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So Coldhands can feel the cold?

"They are here." The ranger drew his longsword.
"Where?" Meera's voice was hushed.
"Close. I don't know. Somewhere."
[snip]
Meera eyed the hill above. "The way looks clear."
"Looks," the ranger muttered darkly. "Can you feel the cold? There's something here. Where are they?" (Bran II, ADwD 13)

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Posted (edited)
On 6/22/2020 at 3:40 AM, Seams said:

Dywen:

Is it usually (or exclusively) in the Night's Watch chapters that GRRM plays around with the five senses like this? Dywen is famous for his ability to smell cold, but the first prologue tells us that tension can be tasted and darkness can be heard.

I'm wondering whether the mixed up senses might be related to Gared's losses over the years of ears, finger, etc. in the cold?

 

Hi Seams. :)

In response to your question, I thought you would enjoy @evita mgfs's post/essay on the five senses and how they relate to Arya's arc. 

Hope you enjoy the read. :D

Edit: The link takes you to the OP on the thread. The post on the five senses is post #14. Sorry for the inconvenience. :blush:

Edited by Wizz-The-Smith

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