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Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18

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On 10/8/2020 at 12:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

GRRM has pretty much confirmed that he’s going to be addressing time travel through Bran.  I think it is likely that Bran reached out to Jon, not while he was in the Winterfell Crypts, but when he was in Bloodraven's underground den.

Nice catch on not liking the dark and liking the dark.  I also think this occurs sometime in Bran's future since Jon is long gone from the Skirling Pass by the time by the time Bran arrives at the cave.   

Edited by LynnS

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On 10/8/2020 at 1:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

GRRM has pretty much confirmed that he’s going to be addressing time travel through Bran.

I missed this

 Do you have a link or quote?

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39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I missed this

 Do you have a link or quote?

This is an excerpt from the book, Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon. 

Spoiler

GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: It’s an obscenity to go into somebody’s mind. So Bran may be responsible for Hodor’s simplicity, due to going into his mind so powerfully that it rippled back through time. The explanation of Bran’s powers, the whole question of time and causality—can we affect the past? Is time a river you can only sail one way or an ocean that can be affected wherever you drop into it? These are issues I want to explore in the book, but it’s harder to explain in a show. I thought they executed it very well, but there are going to be differences in the book. They did it very physical—“hold the door” with Hodor’s strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to “hold the door” is more like “hold this pass”—defend it when enemies are coming—and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea.

https://www.wired.com/2020/10/geeks-guide-james-hibberd/

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The difference between Hodor and Jon is that Bran doesn't remember anything he's done with Hodor because it hasn't happened yet. With Jon and Ghost, though, he remembers, but he's not sure, he thinks he might have dreamed the whole thing because he's been sleeping a lot.

If future Bran time traveled to the time where Jon was in the Skirling Pass, then his present self would have no recollection of speaking to Jon or touching Ghost because his future self hasn't arrived at the cave yet.

Bran and Jon manage to connect because they are both inside their direwolves at the same time and both are dreaming at the same time. It's the connection that exists between their direwolves that allows Bran to do what he did. 

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19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The difference between Hodor and Jon is that Bran doesn't remember anything he's done with Hodor because it hasn't happened yet. With Jon and Ghost, though, he remembers, but he's not sure, he thinks he might have dreamed the whole thing because he's been sleeping a lot.

If future Bran time traveled to the time where Jon was in the Skirling Pass, then his present self would have no recollection of speaking to Jon or touching Ghost because his future self hasn't arrived at the cave yet.

Bran and Jon manage to connect because they are both inside their direwolves at the same time and both are dreaming at the same time. It's the connection that exists between their direwolves that allows Bran to do what he did. 

When Bran is wed to the tree, his perception of time is changed.  Past, present and future become one.  Martin describes ripples back through time.  Bran thinks he may have dreamed of Jon; that he touched Ghost and spoke to Jon.  This is a ripple in time from the future to the past. Jon experiences the reverse, Bran spoke to him then Bran touched Ghost.  Bran cannot experience time the way the tree does until he is wed to the tree.  Bran doesn't come into his full powers in the crypts. He can sense his future self.  

As for Hodor, Bran doesn't know that he is weakening Hodor in the past and yes these events, the causality is in the future. The past can't be changed because it has already happened, Bran

The difference between Hodor and Jon is that Jon has a 3rd eye and Bran can communicate with him in his wolf dreams. Bran isn't warging Summer at this point.  He appears as a tree growing out of the rock showing that he is not constrained by time. 

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Quote

“On Braavos there is a society called the Faceless Men,” Grand Maester Pycelle offered.


“Do you have any idea how costly they are?” Littlefinger complained. “You could hire an army of common sellswords for half the price, and that’s for a merchant. I don’t dare think what they might ask for a princess.”

AGoT Ch33 Eddard VIII

Quote

The old man was some sort of merchant, Cat concluded after watching him for a few days.

ADwD Ch 64 The Ugly Little Girl

Petyr Baelish paid the price of a sellsword army to sink Beonze Yohn's insurer shortly after Jon Arryn died? At least, before Dany reached Vaes Dothrak. But it took them a couple of years to get around to it (or, the gift was given on conditional terms.)

If Tyrion's fee to the Second Sons is any guide, that is 150,000 Gold dragons, fifty hides of fertile land, and a. Lordship.

( 30×100+27×1000+2×10000+1×10000 )

ADwD Ch 66 Tyrion XII

Edited by Walda

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AGOT EDDARD I

, and that stunted little man behind them was surely the Imp, Tyrion Lannister.

Wow! I never noticed that!

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17 hours ago, Walda said:

(AGoT Ch29 Sansa II)

Gregor's gift was a puppet knight. And Gregor became a puppet knight.

Or Maybe not. We might also have a Galvatron/Megatron (Transformers 4) situation. Qyburn may be ignorant of the fact or in cahoots (underneath, own agenda)

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Oh, I believe he was Tywin's puppet in the sack of King's Landing, until I can get him from the flagpole above the goldcloaks barracks, where he was seen scaling the wall and hoisting the Lannister flag, to the nursery in the Crown Prince's quarters inside the inner wall of Maegor's holdfast, where the children and Elia were. That takes a bit more explaination than I have found so far.

Although, I am not at all sure it was Tywin's idea to kill the children and Elia. It seems to me they were more useful to him alive than dead, that he might have preferred to be Aegon's Hand rather than Robert's goodfather; that he might have been played like a puppet and was only making lemonade out of the irretrievably, undeniably stabbed and crushed lemons his henchmen discovered. It was sly enough, the way he shunted the blame for these crimes onto Robert, for accepting his 'gifts' and his alliance, agreeing to support and acknowledge Robert as the supreme commander in whose name these atrocities were committed.

And Gregor is someone's puppet on his way home from the Tourney of the hand. Chiswyck tells us his first-person account of what happened at the pub at Sherrer in ACoK Ch 30 Arya VIII, to compare with the one Raymun Darry orders Joss the publican to tell in AGoT Ch 43 Eddard XI. I can't help but notice it had been pouring rain and flooding in Chiswyck's version, which puts a damper on everything combustible in Ser Raymun's version.

I wonder to, how the smallfolk feel about their 'protectors', the lords Darry, Vance, and Piper, who have driven them on foot to the Red Keep to accuse Clegane, without allowing them so much as a bath or a change of clothes. Perhaps Joss is as willing to thank these high lords for their favour.

Tywin was willing enough to take his armies through the Riverlands to the Inn at the Crossroads where his son had been abducted. The Riverlords couldn't have stopped him if they had tried. Jaime's host stopped them easily, at small loss to himself and grievous loss to Darry. Piper and Vance took off to raid Clegane Keep while Gregor dutifully attended his bannerlord and Tywin waited hopefully for the Northerners to join the game.

But, re the harrying of Sherrer, Wendish Town, Mummer's Ford and Darry's lands, I don't see how Tywin could have been in communication with Clegane until Clegane returned to the Westerlands, after his depredations in the Riverlands, unless at least one friendly River Lord was accepting messages from Tywin and getting them to Clegane on his way up the Red Fork after leaving King's Landing.

I don't trust that feckless idiot Edmure and his Riverlads (all of them have the arrogance and beligerance of high lords of the manor, but none of them actually are River Lords, and none of their efforts protect the smallfolk or preserve their property, and they would rather fight Lannisters than take responsibility for their fathers' lands and people.). It seems to me that there is more to the story than Eddard was told, and both Varys and Littlefinger know it.

Gregor and his men are no saints, as Chiswyck's account shows. I wouldn't put the harrying murder of the smith's apprentice past them, or the rape of the girl, but there were only eight of them: Gregor, Chiswyck, Raff the Sweetling, Joss Stilwood,  Eggon, Tobbot and three others (I'm guessing Polly, and the Tickler, because these two were still trying to make a man of Joss when they met the Hound and Arya (.ASoS Ch 74 Arya XIII). And the last might be Dunsen? maybe Shitmouth?)

Thing is, none of Gregor's lot seem to be archers. And it was too wet for setting things on fire. The Brave Companions had archers, Amory Lorch set places on fire, at a later date, when things had dried out a bit.

It seems to me that Gregor is copping the blame for more than what he did, in the hope that Piper, Vance, and Darry had an excuse for helping themselves to Lefford's gold, and burning Clegane's smallfolk alive.

Then, his liege lord seems unconcerned about his existence. On the Green Fork, Tyrion gets precious about his father attempting to kill him by making him lead the van - but his father chose the big man with the small shield to actually lead the van. Again and again we see Tywin deploy Gregor wherever the fighting is fiercest. Mummers Ford. Harrenhal. Ruby Ford. Duskendale. If Tywin sees anyone as dispensable, it is Gregor.

So yeah, I think Gregor was a puppet-knight from the day he swore his knighly vows, and I can only hope that what Qyburn has done to him has at least cured his migraines. 

Edited by Walda

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On 10/7/2020 at 5:06 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

This isn't some time travel shenanigans between Jon and Bran. This is Bran who has just opened his third eye while hiding out in the crypts entering someone's dream for the first time. 

It makes complete sense that Bloodraven would be puzzled when Bran asks him if he's the three-eyed crow. It's not because he's not the real three-eyed crow, it's because he doesn't know what form he takes in someone's dreams.

I've been saying this for years.

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40 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

I've been saying this for years.

Someone I can toast with when TWoW comes out ;)

I am very confident that whole scene with Jon is the groundwork for Bran being Jon's guide while he's inside Ghost, just as BR was his guide while Bran was in his coma. 

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19 hours ago, jwkdude said:

I've got the worst one. I just realized it's called the Trident....because it has 3 points, the 3 forks of the river

Yes. But "dent" also means "tooth." I think it's not a coincidence that Arya throws Joffrey's sword "Lion's Tooth" into the Red Fork.

I'm also intrigued that Meera's weapon is a three-pointed frog spear.

Edited by Seams

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20 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

I've been saying this for years.

I've been saying for years that Bran doesn't come into all his powers the moment he opens his 3rd eye in the crypts of Winterfell.  He has only just mastered the ability to warg Summer at will.  He may dream of himself encountering Jon at the Skirling Pass, but he is passive in the cave,   Tree-Bran has the capability of appearing to Jon as a tree and activating Jon's third eye.  Bran's perception of time  changes when he is wed to the tree. Past, present and future become one.  In Bran's last chapter, he learns to skinchange the crows and ravens.  Bloodraven tells him that in time, he will be able to see as the tree sees but doesn't know how long it will take Bran to master that gift.  I think that appearing as a sapling and growing in fast forward is the culmination of that gift. It is a future version of Bran. I think there are big differences in Bran's gift from the point he opens his third eye in the crypt and when he is wed to the tree. 

One difference is that Bran doesn't like the dark in the crypts whereas tree-Bran tells Jon, he likes it in the dark.  I don't know why people are so opposed to this idea.  Martin has revealed that he is experimenting with time and causality.  Is it still nonsense? Is Martin up to shenanigans?

He uses the example of Hodor where Brans actions in the future, affect Hodor  in the past.   I see something similar with Bran and tree-Bran.  These are two different versions of Bran. 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

"When?" Bran wanted to know.

"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow."

 

I understand this as Bran can look where he will at some point in the future.  But he has not yet mastered that power.  I think appearing to Jon "at will" qualifies as mastering that power.  This is a far cry from I may have dreamed of Jon

Edited by LynnS

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've been saying for years that Bran doesn't come into all his powers the moment he opens his 3rd eye in the crypts of Winterfell.  He has only just mastered the ability to warg Summer at will.  He may dream of himself encountering Jon at the Skirling Pass, but he is passive in the cave,   Tree-Bran has the capability of appearing to Jon as a tree and activating Jon's third eye.  Bran's perception of time  changes when he is wed to the tree. Past, present and future become one. 

In ACoK Bran VII, Bran remembers touching Ghost and talking to Jon. That's not being passive. It is natural for Bran to doubt his powers, ("maybe he had only dreamed that") because he is far more powerful than his teachers know.  He seems to have overcome a mental block, and his initial "opening" carried him farther than expected.

Yes, Bran gains abilities when he weds the trees. No one disputes that. He's shown no ability to willfully see the future, however. He hasn't even tried. He accidentally saw the past. Frankly, we have no idea how powerful he will become, and neither does Bloodraven. But he is powerful enough in the crypts to achieve what he remembered he saw and did.

A weirwood is simply Bran's dream avatar, just as a three-eyed crow is BR's.

Simplest explanations are best. Occam's Razor slays most of your arguments.

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5 hours ago, Seams said:

Yes. But "dent" also means "tooth." I think it's not a coincidence that Arya throws Joffrey's sword "Lion's Tooth" into the Red Fork.

I'm also intrigued that Meera's weapon is a three-pointed frog spear.

Looked Trident up on Etymonline, and the etymology adds up:

trident (n.)

"three-pointed spear," mid-15c., from Latin noun use of adjective tridentem (nominative tridens) "three-pronged, three-toothed," from tri- "three" (see tri-) + dens "tooth" (from PIE root *dent- "tooth"). 

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55 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

In ACoK Bran VII, Bran remembers touching Ghost and talking to Jon. That's not being passive. It is natural for Bran to doubt his powers, ("maybe he had only dreamed that") because he is far more powerful than his teachers know.  He seems to have overcome a mental block, and his initial "opening" carried him farther than expected.

Yes, Bran gains abilities when he weds the trees. No one disputes that. He's shown no ability to willfully see the future, however. He hasn't even tried. He accidentally saw the past. Frankly, we have no idea how powerful he will become, and neither does Bloodraven. But he is powerful enough in the crypts to achieve what he remembered he saw and did.

A weirwood is simply Bran's dream avatar, just as a three-eyed crow is BR's.

Simplest explanations are best. Occam's Razor slays most of your arguments.

It's a compelling argument and I almost believe it. Except that Bran doesn't even consider showing his siblings "how to fly" until he reaches BR's cave.  We have also been given the model that Martin is using.   Bran can drop himself into the ocean anywhere in time causing ripples or echoes travelling back in time.  Bran has had a memory of his future self delivered in a dream.  He remembers the events backwards. 

On the subject of the 3EC, Bran has tree dreams, crow dreams and sometimes both appear in his dreams.  That's enough to question whether they are one in the same.   

 

Edited by LynnS

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5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We have also been given the model that Martin is using.   Bran can drop himself into the ocean anywhere in time causing ripples or echoes travelling back in time.  Bran has had a memory of his future self delivered in a dream.  He remembers the events backwards. 

On the subject of the 3EC, Bran has tree dreams, crow dreams and sometimes both appear in his dreams.  That's enough to question whether they are one in the same.   

 

I see no evidence to support that, and thus see no reason to continue this conversation. I withdraw.

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