Jump to content
Seams

Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18

Recommended Posts

It would seem that adultry is a crime against the husband...

Quote

Henceforth, it was decreed, a bride's maidenhead would only belong to her husband, whether joined before a septon or a heart tree. Any man, be they lord or peasant, who would forcibly take her on her wedding night or any other night would be guilty of rape. 

Jaehaerys and Alysanne, Fire and Blood

Whether the wife consents is not mentioned as a element of the crime. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whenever you read about icicles long as spears, get ready for someone to die.

The following passage is from the Epilogue to Dance before Varys murders Kevan...

Quote

The snow had finally stopped falling. Behind a veil of ragged clouds, a full moon floated fat and white as a snowball. The stars shone cold and distant. As Ser Kevan made his way across the inner ward, the castle seemed an alien place, where every keep and tower had grown icy teeth, and all familiar paths had vanished beneath a white blanket. Once an icicle long as a spear fell to shatter by his feet. Autumn in King' s Landing, he brooded. What must it be like up on the Wall? 

When I read this, I noted that the author was clearly setting a creepy mood here, with a full moon, stars shining cold and distant, an alien landscape with icy teeth, no familiar paths, and a spear of ice falling near him. 

Reading the next line from The Long Reign, Fire and Blood suggested to me that another character was about to die...

Quote

The streets of King's Landing were empty, especially by night, the alleyways were deep in snow, and icicles hung down from the rooftops, long as spears.

Sure enough, princess Daenerys, daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, died on the next page. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The next day, the column crossed the stream that formed the boundary between the lands that did fealty to King's Landing and those beholden to Riverrun. Maester Gulian consulted a map and announced that these hills were held by the brothers Wode, a pair of landed knights sworn to Harrenhal . . . but their halls had been earth and timber, and only blackened beams remained of them.

No Wodes appeared, nor any of their smallfolk, though some outlaws had taken shelter in the root cellar beneath the second brother's keep. One of them wore the ruins of a crimson cloak, but Jaime hanged him with the rest. It felt good. This was justice. Make a habit of it, Lannister, and one day men might call you Goldenhand after all. Goldenhand the Just.

The world grew ever greyer as they drew near to Harrenhal. They rode beneath slate skies, beside waters that shone old and cold as a sheet of beaten steel. Jaime found himself wondering if Brienne might have passed this way before him. If she thought that Sansa Stark had made for Riverrun . . . Had they encountered other travelers, he might have stopped to ask if any of them had chance to see a pretty maid with auburn hair, or a big ugly one with a face that would curdle milk. But there was no one on the roads but wolves, and their howling held no answers.

 

Read it with this in mind.

 

Quote

The first of the Andal kings to bring all the riverlands under his sway was a bastard born of a tryst between two ancient enemies, the Blackwoods and the Brackens. As a boy, he was Benedict Rivers, despised by all, but he grew to be the greatest warrior of his age, Ser Benedict the Bold. His prowess in battle won him the support of both his mother's house and his father's, and soon other riverlords bent their knees to him as well. It required more than thirty years for Benedict to throw down the last of the petty kings of the Trident. Only when the last had yielded did he don a crown himself.

As king, he became known as Benedict the Just, a name that pleased him so much that he set aside his bastard surname and took Justman as the name of his house. As wise as he was stern, he reigned for three-and-twenty years, extending his domains as far as Maidenpool and the Neck. His son, another Benedict, reigned for sixty years and added Duskendale, Rosby, and the mouth of the Blackwater to the river realm.

A bastard, despised by all, the greatest warrior of his age and pleased by being called just.

 

Also remember that Just like Brackens and Blackwoods are for thousands of years, Lannisters and Targaryens are now enemies Also Lannisters were a vassal of the Targaryens and became kings (in all but name) through betraying their overlord and joining their enemies, same is true of the Blackwood and Bracken, though we can't know which was the king.

Jaime travels around the Riverland, making the Riverlords bend the knee and we are especially shown the Blackwoods and Brackens.

Finally, remember Joanna and Aerys II. and how alike is Cersei's mind set to Aerys' (burning KL and making a White palace on the other bank)

With all these, how much of a coincidence is it that Jaime fantasises on being called "The Just" in the very region that Benedict the Just was born and became king of? He may very well have encountered some bandits in the Crownlands, as Ser Hogg's lands were also raided(though by Amory Lorch), but he encounters them just after crossing the border. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When she was small, her nurse had filled her ears with tales of valor, regaling her with the noble exploits of Ser Galladon of Morne, Florian the Fool, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, and other champions. Each man bore a famous sword, and surely Oathkeeper belonged in their company, even if she herself did not. "You'll defend Ned Stark's daughter with Ned Stark's own steel," Jaime had promised. (Brienne I, AFfC 4, p. 99)

I hadn't even realized that Florian the Fool had a famous sword. Ser Galladon had the Just Maid, according to Brienne and Aemon the Dragonknight wielded Dark Sister. So what was the name of Florian's famous blade?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ending of Arya IV in AGOT, after Ned's imprisonment & Arya escaping from Meryn Trant

Quote

Her footsteps sent soft echoes hurrying ahead of her as Arya plunged deeper into the darkness.

I like the wordplay here - what it literally means, is that Arya is escaping towards the tunnel, which is dark, but if you've read the next novels and you know what kind of turn her story takes, then "Arya plunging deeper into darkness" takes a whole other meaning as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, miyuki said:

The ending of Arya IV in AGOT, after Ned's imprisonment & Arya escaping from Meryn Trant

I like the wordplay here - what it literally means, is that Arya is escaping towards the tunnel, which is dark, but if you've read the next novels and you know what kind of turn her story takes, then "Arya plunging deeper into darkness" takes a whole other meaning as well.

Nice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, miyuki said:

The ending of Arya IV in AGOT, after Ned's imprisonment & Arya escaping from Meryn Trant

I like the wordplay here - what it literally means, is that Arya is escaping towards the tunnel, which is dark, but if you've read the next novels and you know what kind of turn her story takes, then "Arya plunging deeper into darkness" takes a whole other meaning as well.

It also sounds like something a knife or blade would do - plunge into something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/22/2019 at 1:30 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Whenever you read about icicles long as spears, get ready for someone to die.

Oh Wow.  Interesting connection here:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

 

 

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/22/2019 at 6:30 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Whenever you read about icicles long as spears, get ready for someone to die.

But with icicles long as pikes all is well. :)

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

By the time Meera returned, the sun was only a sword's breath above the western hills. "What did you see?" her brother Jojen asked her.
"I saw the haunted forest," she said in a wistful tone. "Hills rising wild as far as the eye can see, covered with trees that no axe has ever touched. I saw the sunlight glinting off a lake, and clouds sweeping in from the west. I saw patches of old snow, and icicles long as pikes. I even saw an eagle circling. I think he saw me too. I waved at him."
"Did you see a way down?" asked Jojen.

No one seems to die right after this, phew.

 

Edited by darkeyedtraveller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stannis' interpersonal skills are so poor that even if he could sit on the Iron Throne, he would get the Aerys treatment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of things I've noticed in my latest re-read: 

Many people are called "Oathbreakers", either erroneously or not ( Jon Snow, Jaime, that NW guy from the AGOT prologue, Osha,) but only a sword is ever called "Oathkeeper" which I think is very telling. As though oaths can only be kept at sword point. 

That lead me on another train of thought with respect to Oaths that I think GRRM was/is using to foreshadow what will become of those responsible for the Red Wedding (it's already happening what with Lord Manderly's Rat Cook feast) On a larger scale it informs us as to how this world works, and why oaths are so important. 

In a feudal land such as Westeros that has little by way of courts, law-enforcement, or the like, an oath is especially meaningful. A man must be as good as his word, otherwise chaos reigns. We've seen that in the treachery of the Lannisters. They do not win crowns or glory on the battlefield, but through deceit and backroom deals. The result of the actions of high-ranking "oathbreakers" is utter chaos in the land, especially for the smallfolk who are relied upon to bring in the harvest, for instance. The domino effect being the threat of rioting and civil war as we see in KL in ACOK. Among other consequences. 

Another aspect of "oathbreaking" I saw with respect to Jon Snow & Osha who both exist outside of the Westerosi "social contract". For instance: Bastards are thought of as treacherous oathbreakers by nature of their low birth (something Jon has internalized as he calls himself Oathbreaker a number of times. Though I don't believe he has broken any oaths. Correct me if I'm wrong). Osha was erroneously called Oathbreaker as well for similar reasons (though she contradicts this and says she's just a wilding who has sworn no oaths). She exists outside the social norms "social contract" what have you which must (to the tiny Westerosi mind) mean "oathbreaker" 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, nyser1 said:

Stannis' interpersonal skills are so poor that even if he could sit on the Iron Throne, he would get the Aerys treatment.

Stannis is such a blind idiot he drives me mad 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Martell means hammer.

Martells moved in near greenblood. Rhoynar are a people closely associated with water and Mors married that watery tart, their Princess Nymeria. Hammer of Waters perhaps?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I never noticed that the Lyseni have a real knack for surviving sea battles. Salladhor Saan's were the only (?) ships fighting for Stannis to survive the Battle of the Blackwater, and following the Battle in the Gullet, 25 of the surviving 28 ships fightong for the Three Daughters were Lyseni. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DwD, The Lost Lord

Quote

"The plan—"

"Which plan?" said Tristan Rivers. "The fat man's plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver's Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well.

George has changed his ASOIAF plans several times (the infamous letter, the addition of the Blackfyre storyline, five year gap). 

I'm wondering if George is the fat man changing his plans and he is having a little fun with his readers here.

I mean, he could have just written Illyrio. :P

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hadn't noticed how GRRM had bookended this.

They brought the King-Beyond-the-Wall with his hands bound by hempen rope and a noose around his neck.
The other end of the rope was looped about the saddle horn of Ser Godry Farring's courser. Mance Rayder wore only a thin tunic that left his limbs naked to the cold. They could have let him keep his cloak, Jon Snow thought, the one the wildling woman patched with strips of crimson silk.
Small wonder the Wall was weeping. (Jon III, ADwD 10)

And;

Mance Rayder's thick grey-brown hair blew about his face as he walked. He pushed it from his eyes with bound hands, smiling. But when he saw the cage, his courage failed him. The queen's men had made it from the trees of the haunted forest, from saplings and supple branches, pine bought sticky with sap, and the bone-white fingers of the weirwoods. They'd bent them and twisted them around and through each other to weave a wooden lattice, then hung it high above the deep pit filled with logs, leaves, and kindling.
The wildling king recoiled from the sight. "No," he cried, "mercy. This is not right, I'm not the king, they --" (Jon II, ADwD 10)

And the pink letter;

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell. (Jon XIII, ADwD 69)

Rattleshirt as Mance Rayder is put in a cage at the start of ADwD and the real Mance Rayder allegedly put in a cage for all the north to see. Rattleshirt had taken Mance identity and Mance took the Abel identity. Jon finds out later about the switcheroo.

Jon laments that Stannis and Mel didn't even allow Mance to keep his cloak, but Ramsay has made him one from the skins of the spearwives. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/24/2019 at 10:38 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

DwD, The Lost Lord

George has changed his ASOIAF plans several times (the infamous letter, the addition of the Blackfyre storyline, five year gap). 

I'm wondering if George is the fat man changing his plans and he is having a little fun with his readers here.

I mean, he could have just written Illyrio. :P

I would say there is a double entendre here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I hadn't noticed how GRRM had bookended this.

They brought the King-Beyond-the-Wall with his hands bound by hempen rope and a noose around his neck.
The other end of the rope was looped about the saddle horn of Ser Godry Farring's courser. Mance Rayder wore only a thin tunic that left his limbs naked to the cold. They could have let him keep his cloak, Jon Snow thought, the one the wildling woman patched with strips of crimson silk.
Small wonder the Wall was weeping. (Jon III, ADwD 10)

And;

Mance Rayder's thick grey-brown hair blew about his face as he walked. He pushed it from his eyes with bound hands, smiling. But when he saw the cage, his courage failed him. The queen's men had made it from the trees of the haunted forest, from saplings and supple branches, pine bought sticky with sap, and the bone-white fingers of the weirwoods. They'd bent them and twisted them around and through each other to weave a wooden lattice, then hung it high above the deep pit filled with logs, leaves, and kindling.
The wildling king recoiled from the sight. "No," he cried, "mercy. This is not right, I'm not the king, they --" (Jon II, ADwD 10)

And the pink letter;

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell. (Jon XIII, ADwD 69)

Rattleshirt as Mance Rayder is put in a cage at the start of ADwD and the real Mance Rayder allegedly put in a cage for all the north to see. Rattleshirt had taken Mance identity and Mance took the Abel identity. Jon finds out later about the switcheroo.

Jon laments that Stannis and Mel didn't even allow Mance to keep his cloak, but Ramsay has made him one from the skins of the spearwives. 

Nice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/24/2019 at 11:38 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'm wondering if George is the fat man changing his plans and he is having a little fun with his readers here.

I mean, he could have just written Illyrio

Isn't Illyrio the part he played in the abandoned pilot for the HBO show? Ir was it just a random pentoshi?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I hadn't noticed how GRRM had bookended this.

They brought the King-Beyond-the-Wall with his hands bound by hempen rope and a noose around his neck.
The other end of the rope was looped about the saddle horn of Ser Godry Farring's courser. Mance Rayder wore only a thin tunic that left his limbs naked to the cold. They could have let him keep his cloak, Jon Snow thought, the one the wildling woman patched with strips of crimson silk.
Small wonder the Wall was weeping. (Jon III, ADwD 10)

And;

Mance Rayder's thick grey-brown hair blew about his face as he walked. He pushed it from his eyes with bound hands, smiling. But when he saw the cage, his courage failed him. The queen's men had made it from the trees of the haunted forest, from saplings and supple branches, pine bought sticky with sap, and the bone-white fingers of the weirwoods. They'd bent them and twisted them around and through each other to weave a wooden lattice, then hung it high above the deep pit filled with logs, leaves, and kindling.
The wildling king recoiled from the sight. "No," he cried, "mercy. This is not right, I'm not the king, they --" (Jon II, ADwD 10)

And the pink letter;

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell. (Jon XIII, ADwD 69)

Rattleshirt as Mance Rayder is put in a cage at the start of ADwD and the real Mance Rayder allegedly put in a cage for all the north to see. Rattleshirt had taken Mance identity and Mance took the Abel identity. Jon finds out later about the switcheroo.

Jon laments that Stannis and Mel didn't even allow Mance to keep his cloak, but Ramsay has made him one from the skins of the spearwives. 

This is terrific. I had never noticed before that the cage for Mance is very much like the twisted twigs that Littlefinger manipulates to make the glass house for Sansa's snow castle.

The real glass house was warm and contained fruit trees. Theon sees dead trees there after the burning of Winterfell.

For the snow castle, Littlefinger tells Sansa that they have no way of making glass for the glass house, so they have to let the lattice stand in for the complete structure. The missing glass for the warm glass house could be like the missing cloak for "Mance." Also interesting to consider that Rattleshirt is standing in for Mance in the burning of the cage, and he wears a shirt made of twig-like bones, somewhat like the cloak made of human skin?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...