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Ser Pip

Jon's biggest error?

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49 minutes ago, Remember said:

Yeah, you make good points, and frankly, with the writing going on right now with this show I am definitely not going to "die on a hill" pushing my own opinions when things are so murky on the show.  I have flip-flopped my feelings in my own head like 10 times about Dany burning the City after reading this board lol

But I will say this: Jon initially walks into the room with Dany staring morosely into the fire. Yeah, he doesn't know it is because Grey Worm just  threw Misandei's collar into the fire, but seriously dude, READ THE ROOM! Dany had recently burned Varys for betraying her, and Jon knows it is because Sansa spilled the beans - Dany tells him as much right away in the scene!  That's his fault, honorable or not for wanting to be honest the people he grew up with.

Then she talks about having no love, and he says he loves her and that she will always be his queen. I get why he would pull away when kissing his aunt, but he then says nothing after? No Explanation? As another poster mentioned, he could have said something along the lines of, "My life has been thrown into a tailspin with these revelations about my parentage. I love you, but as my aunt we are family. We are the last Targaryeans and I will support you as queen and will follow you always." I mean, Jon is going through some shit too (and I realize this can be used against my point that Jon is to blame, but only if you assume he is incapable of speech)!  His siblings are his cousins, his dad is his uncle, his lover is his aunt...Just confide in her.  Have a conver-fucking-sation. But it's not possible for real conversations this season, so whatevs. 

People tend to forget that this is a story. The story isn't how Jon or someone else saves Dany. It's how Dany spirals and burns KL to the ground. Has nothing to do with DD or Jon as a character. That's why my, yours, and people who say Jon is dumb and should've talked to her about him being in a tailspin make no sense. He needs to react like he does so she can do what she does and move the story along regardless of what us fans would like to see, or what we have built it up to be.

As to in scene, sure Jon could have been more reassuring but Dany switches instantly to death mode as soon as she feels him pull away. How can he comfort her when her illness kicks in and puts her there? He can't, no one can. That's what mental illness is.

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13 hours ago, Remember said:

Yep, Jon caught a case of the most annoying of diseases: TVitis.  It's where people in stories don't talk about freaking anything that people in real life would (it's very similar to the movie and book strains of the disease). I think he caught it from D&D. 

to be fair, d & d for the most part have done a phenomenal job at adapting the books to film. obviously i don't agree with every decision that they've made over the years, but imo grrm is equally if not moreso to blame for the many flaws of season 8. the guy had been lazy as fuck since the hbo series began and could have at the very least finished wow. and that's not just my opinion; he's admitted himself on numerous occasions to being the worst procrastinator.

the creators had a ten year head start with the expectation of gaining more source material and were basically blindsided when that ended up not happening. instead, grrm farts out adwd (easily the least interesting of the books) and then goofs around with writing more asoiaf lore books that are irrelevant to the main saga. as far as the directing, cinematography, and acting is concerned, the show has never disappointed in that aspect. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Ice Queen said:

 

This crap about him owing her his life is just that, crap.  He handed her the North and became her vassal, diminishing himself in the eyes of his people. Her armies died because she's a terrible commander and that too is on her.

 

This.

People can't use that ''logic'', because then you have to apply it to basically everything. So Jorah saved Dany's life how many times ? And she couldn't bother sleeping with him ? That's the least she could do, she owed him her life ! See ?

Edited by The Unborn

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22 hours ago, Nightwish said:

Trusting Sansa was a big mistake.

 

Trusting Dany was a big mistake, yes. Everyone, except former slaves, have already realized that. Jon, Varys, Tyrion - everyone. Don't need to mention Sansa, Arya, Lord Royce, Lord Glover, etc, who didn't trust her from the beginning. And former slaves sees her as a goddess, so they just worship her and don't need any trust.

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Posted (edited)

Jon’s biggest mistake is his denial.

He craves for the throne. More precisely - he wants to embrace his heritage, not to be a bastard and source of shame anymore but someone important and deserving. He just wanted to be rid of guilt for his betrayal so he used his family, despite being warned not to do so. It was his choice.

Edited by TwiceBorn

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Posted (edited)

I think Jon's biggest flaw or error is probably similar to Ned's.  Believing other people will behave in an honorable way, because he would behave in an honorable way.  Not understanding the game.  (I mean, as others have noted, his biggest problem is the way he's been written and his nonsensical script, but..yeah)

But it really bugs me how often people make excuses for Daenerys.  "If so and so and done such and such differently, she wouldn't have done what she did"  "she wouldn't have felt forced to do it" blah blah.  No matter how betrayed or lonely she feels, only a frickin megalomaniac or a monster would do what she did.  Period.  No excuses.  No, "but nobody loved her"  "Jon didn't comfort her properly" "poor Dany" "oh, she's just a little ruthless..she's a good person" :rolleyes:

Edit to add:  whatever she once was in seasons past, she is no longer, after this act.  They didn't write it very well, but that is the story they are telling.  Someone who was once a good person, and goes on a unnecessary mass murdering rampage, is no longer a good person.  Nobody else besides Daenerys did anything that justifies or caused what she did. 

Edited by Red Dragon10

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1 hour ago, TheSmallOther said:

Trusting Dany was a big mistake, yes. Everyone, except former slaves, have already realized that. Jon, Varys, Tyrion - everyone. Don't need to mention Sansa, Arya, Lord Royce, Lord Glover, etc, who didn't trust her from the beginning. And former slaves sees her as a goddess, so they just worship her and don't need any trust.

Ah but they didn't have the guts to tell her to get her butt and army out of the North? No, they hide behind her protection to stab her in the back, hide, accusing and run away as all traitors do. 

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3 hours ago, The Unborn said:

This.

People can't use that ''logic'', because then you have to apply it to basically everything. So Jorah saved Dany's life how many times ? And she couldn't bother sleeping with him ? That's the least she could do, she owed him her life ! See ?

This conversation was not about Jon's dick. 

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45 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

But it really bugs me how often people make excuses for Daenerys.  "If so and so and done such and such differently, she wouldn't have done what she did"  "she wouldn't have felt forced to do it" blah blah.  No matter how betrayed or lonely she feels, only a frickin megalomaniac or a monster would do what she did.  Period.  No excuses.  No, "but nobody loved her"  "Jon didn't comfort her properly" "poor Dany" "oh, she's just a little ruthless..she's a good person" :rolleyes:

I know right? I've already seen some of these takes:

"It's Jon's fault that he's not helping Dany through these rough times that she's putting herself through" 

"Jon should have just been a better boyfriend" 

"Jon should just fuck her to make her good, not evil" <--probably the most repulsively sexist reaction

"Jon should be more of a doormat and do Dany's bidding" 

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1 hour ago, TheSmallOther said:

Trusting Dany was a big mistake, yes. Everyone, except former slaves, have already realized that. Jon, Varys, Tyrion - everyone. Don't need to mention Sansa, Arya, Lord Royce, Lord Glover, etc, who didn't trust her from the beginning. And former slaves sees her as a goddess, so they just worship her and don't need any trust.

Yup, trusting Dany was definitely a problem.

I'd also add not listening to his instincts. He was afraid in the waterfall scene. When I first saw it, I thought her smile and "don't be afraid" was straight out of some horror movie. 

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31 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

This conversation was not about Jon's dick. 

That was not my point. At all...

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On 5/15/2019 at 4:43 PM, Ser Pip said:

When Danny asked Jon if she was just his queen he cold have replied that they were also family

No, I don't think she wanted to hear that... nor that this instance is "his biggest error".

The major mistake was to bend the knee to Daenerys in the first place. She already committed to fight on his side and they should have continued as equals. That would have been typical for a Northern man and to satisfy the expectations of the North as well. He should have never waived to be King in the North. Daenerys as ally would have been fine for Sansa, but not submitting to a foreign usurper.

But of course, in this particular kissing scene he could have explained what troubles him, e.g. the battle ahead. They should also gave had time to discuss the aunt/nephew issue instead him just retracting from her. Yes, eihter Jon is not the man of best words or the writing is bad.

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13 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Jon's biggest error was that he didn't execute Sansa after the Battle of the Bastards. 

And what would that have achieved? Hate Sansa all you like, many people do. But Sansa's the only character left with a bit of sense. Had Tyrion listened to her, he could have avoided what happened in King's Landing. As for Jon, he's thick as a brick and without Sansa covering for him, he'd have been lost a long time ago.

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1 minute ago, Ellimental said:

Had Tyrion listened to her, he could have avoided what happened in King's Landing. 

But Tyrion did listen to her, and then told Varys, who immediately started to plot to have Daenerys usurped and killed and Jon put on the throne - just like Sansa wanted.
Daenerys wasn't wrong when she told Jon what would happen when the truth came out, nor that this was a victory for Sansa.

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Just now, MinscS2 said:

But Tyrion did listen to her, and then told Varys, who immediately started to plot to have Daenerys usurped and killed and Jon put on the throne - just like Sansa wanted.
Daenerys wasn't wrong when she told Jon what would happen when the truth came out, nor that this was a victory for Sansa.

But he ratted Sansa and Varys out. Had he acted properly and helped Varys, he could have prevented what happened. Instead, he enabled it, just as Jon did.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Ellimental said:

But he ratted Sansa and Varys out. Had he acted properly and helped Varys, he could have prevented what happened. Instead, he enabled it, just as Jon did.

And Sansa didn't have to tell him to begin with, especially considering she literally swore not to tell anyone 5 minutes earlier...

Sansa has her own agenda, but ultimately she's just as guilty as he is.

Edited by MinscS2

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

No, I don't think she wanted to hear that... nor that this instance is "his biggest error".

The major mistake was to bend the knee to Daenerys in the first place. She already committed to fight on his side and they should have continued as equals. That would have been typical for a Northern man and to satisfy the expectations of the North as well. He should have never waived to be King in the North. Daenerys as ally would have been fine for Sansa, but not submitting to a foreign usurper.

But of course, in this particular kissing scene he could have explained what troubles him, e.g. the battle ahead. They should also gave had time to discuss the aunt/nephew issue instead him just retracting from her. Yes, eihter Jon is not the man of best words or the writing is bad.

I agree with you. He shouldn't but I believe that he did it because she came to his rescue and just lost a dragon. He recognized that her strength was superior, her intentions were good and felt obliged to reward her somehow (apart from the fact that he liked her like hell).

Mainly I would say his mistake was undermining North. Poor thing seemed to believe that he is really a king without for example considering Sansa's opposition and other houses. North is known for its stubbornness and just stood on its feet but this is John Snow we are talking about; he knows nothing. 

And on the matter of the last scene between them, he should have talked and explained himself.  He saw her condition. Yet he didn't mind given her another blow just before the battle. I am sure he didn't did in purpose but psychology 101. They are not going on a picnic.

Edited by Nightwish

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