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Ser Uncle P

Tywin's Sack of KL vs Dany's burning of KL

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So on a scale of dishonourable behaviour in war (by Westeros "norms" ) is HBO Dany's burning of smallfolk worse than Book Tywin's Sack of KL after the Trident? 

Tywin was a former Hand, and had lived and worked in the capitol for years. He basically turned his troops loose on the people he ruled over in Aerys' name. The arrival of his forces carrying Targaryen banners would have been welcomed by the smallfolk, as they knew him as a capable figure. He brutally betrayed them by sacking the city. 

In contrast, TV Dany had only set foot in KL once, and was basically a foreigner. I'd argue that loosing Drogon on the street wasn't as bad (by westerosi norms) as Tywin's Sack.  

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4 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

So on a scale of dishonourable behaviour in war (by Westeros "norms" ) is HBO Dany's burning of smallfolk worse than Book Tywin's Sack of KL after the Trident? 

Tywin was a former Hand, and had lived and worked in the capitol for years. He basically turned his troops loose on the people he ruled over in Aerys' name. The arrival of his forces carrying Targaryen banners would have been welcomed by the smallfolk, as they knew him as a capable figure. He brutally betrayed them by sacking the city. 

In contrast, TV Dany had only set foot in KL once, and was basically a foreigner. I'd argue that loosing Drogon on the street wasn't as bad (by westerosi norms) as Tywin's Sack.  

She killed everyone on the city, how that's not worse than raping and pillaging some of the people? Wtf are you trying to say here? That westerosi should look at what Dany did and say "oh well, Twyin did worse by killing like 15% of the people and not destroying literally all the building he could".

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5 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

So on a scale of dishonourable behaviour in war (by Westeros "norms" ) is HBO Dany's burning of smallfolk worse than Book Tywin's Sack of KL after the Trident? 

Tywin was a former Hand, and had lived and worked in the capitol for years. He basically turned his troops loose on the people he ruled over in Aerys' name. The arrival of his forces carrying Targaryen banners would have been welcomed by the smallfolk, as they knew him as a capable figure. He brutally betrayed them by sacking the city. 

In contrast, TV Dany had only set foot in KL once, and was basically a foreigner. I'd argue that loosing Drogon on the street wasn't as bad (by westerosi norms) as Tywin's Sack.  

What makes you say Tywin came to the city with Targaryen banners.  I don't think I recall ever hearing that. 

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11 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

What makes you say Tywin came to the city with Targaryen banners.  I don't think I recall ever hearing that. 

Dude everytime I see a post from you I get pissed. "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen." Words of Wisdom from David Benioff"

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Dude everytime I see a post from you I get pissed. "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen." Words of Wisdom from David Benioff"

Well, gee, thanks for answering a LADY's question?

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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4 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Well, gee, thanks for answering a LADY's question?

OH sorry, the quote makes my blood boil everytime the guts from those guys to say that is actually impressive.

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Just now, Ser Loras The Gay said:

OH sorry, the quote makes my blood boil everytime the guts from those guys to say that is actually impressive.

Well, LOL that quote is back from season 5, I believe, and even though it was quite telling, I admit.......I am surprised at how telling it really was.  I'm surprised their mess, and their words, can still surprise me and piss me off a bit. 

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47 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

She killed everyone on the city, how that's not worse than raping and pillaging some of the people? Wtf are you trying to say here? That westerosi should look at what Dany did and say "oh well, Twyin did worse by killing like 15% of the people and not destroying literally all the building he could".

I think he is asking this. Is it worse for a stranger to kill them or a friend?

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1 minute ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Well, LOL that quote is back from season 5, I believe, and even though it was quite telling, I admit.......I am surprised at how telling it really was.  I'm surprised their mess, and their words, can still surprise me and piss me off a bit. 

They have a new pearl. "Dany kinda forgot about Euron's fleet".

 

1 minute ago, dbunting said:

I think he is asking this. Is it worse for a stranger to kill them or a friend?

Yeah but the question is nonsense because the proportions were absolutely not equal. 

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5 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

So on a scale of dishonourable behaviour in war (by Westeros "norms" ) is HBO Dany's burning of smallfolk worse than Book Tywin's Sack of KL after the Trident? 

Tywin was a former Hand, and had lived and worked in the capitol for years. He basically turned his troops loose on the people he ruled over in Aerys' name. The arrival of his forces carrying Targaryen banners would have been welcomed by the smallfolk, as they knew him as a capable figure. He brutally betrayed them by sacking the city. 

In contrast, TV Dany had only set foot in KL once, and was basically a foreigner. I'd argue that loosing Drogon on the street wasn't as bad (by westerosi norms) as Tywin's Sack.  

Both are really really bad

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Posted (edited)

 

13 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Both are really really bad

Which is worse? A commander that intentionally orders his troops to commit atrocities or one that negligently fails to stop his troops from committing them? Both are very bad. And in our world, both are criminal acts.

Normally, the higher degree of scienter, the higher degree of criminal culpability or moral responsibility. As famously once stated, "Even a dog knows the difference between being intentionally kicked and accidentally stepped on."

With respect to Twyin: I'm not aware that he directly ordered his troops to go on a rampage in KL. He just failed to stop them from going on the rampage, which seems pretty normal in the universe of ASOAIF. Nobody, seems to accept the notion of command responsibility in that universe.

In Dany's case, she set out to intentionally cause destruction and death. Her actions weren't a mere failure stop what was going on. She set out to inflict as much damage as she could on the population of KL, after the enemy forces were defeated. And there is no particular reason to think that the damage caused by Dany's actions were any less horrific than what Tywin's troops did.

And to be clear, I think Tywin is a horrible person.

I know the OP tried to couch this terms of Westerosi norms. But, for the life of me, I can't think why accounting for those should change the opinion here. 

Edited by OldGimletEye

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Posted (edited)

Tywin’s actions were calculated and targeted. He had to do some form of damage to warrant Robert’s acceptance. That’s why he killed Ellia and the children. A war crime in contemporary standards for sure, but at least he had the claim of actual armed conflict. 

 

The Lannisters had surrendered. Dany singlehandedly negated every threat to her dragon.  She had total supremacy. The bells rang yielding the city. She won. She then decided to fire bomb the city and intentionally kill civilians en mass. 

 

The better comparison would be if Tywin torched the city after bending the knee to Robert. That didn’t happen, because Tywin wasn’t mad, and calculated every decision and act he made. 

Edited by WalkinDude

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Does Dany action even qualify as a sack? It was more akin to the historical sieges of Baghdad or Kiev by the Mongols if not worse (just cities razed to the ground and population butchered)

Tywin's sack of KL was a child's play compared to that. 

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36 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

 

Which is worse? A commander that intentionally orders his troops to commit atrocities or one that negligently fails to stop his troops from committing them? Both are very bad. And in our world, both are criminal acts.

Normally, the higher degree of scienter, the higher degree of criminal culpability or moral responsibility. As famously once stated, "Even a dog knows the difference between being intentionally kicked and accidentally stepped on."

With respect to Twyin: I'm not aware that he directly ordered his troops to go on a rampage in KL. He just failed to stop them from going on the rampage, which seems pretty normal in the universe of ASOAIF. Nobody, seems to accept the notion of command responsibility in that universe.

In Dany's case, she set out to intentionally cause destruction and death. Her actions weren't a mere failure stop what was going on. She set out to inflict as much damage as she could on the population of KL, after the enemy forces were defeated. And there is no particular reason to think that the damage caused by Dany's actions were any less horrific than what Tywin's troops did.

And to be clear, I think Tywin is horrible person.

I know the OP tried to couch this terms of Westerosi norms. But, for the life of me, I can't think why accounting for those should change the opinion here. 

This is like arguing which Genocide is worse.  Above a certain level horrifying is simply horrifying.  

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1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

This is like arguing which Genocide is worse.  Above a certain level horrifying is simply horrifying.  

I think though the war against Aerys needed to be fought. No matter who would have been in command when KL fell, it likely would have been sacked.

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Tywins move was way more calculated and worked in his favor, and he didn't have to get his hands dirty.

Dany got so close to getting what she wanted and then decided not to go get it and instead burn and destroy the city. I literally screamed at the tv go get Cersei why are you doing this haha. Karma for ep 6 not looking good for the dragon queen of ashes.

Both moves were poopy and not necessary, tywin could have just joined Ned when he showed up and got probably the same deal coming out of Roberts rebellion. Dany obviously would have a happier rest of her life if she would have just roasted the lioness who was begging to be murdered brutally since season one .

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5 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

She killed everyone on the city, how that's not worse than raping and pillaging some of the people? Wtf are you trying to say here? That westerosi should look at what Dany did and say "oh well, Twyin did worse by killing like 15% of the people and not destroying literally all the building he could".

I don't think she came close to killing everyone.  But, her behaviour was still atrocious.

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Both Tywin and Daenerys committed war crimes.

Tywin's crime actually had a purpose behind it - the only thing lacking from textbook Machiavelli would be him executing Gregor afterwards. The episode was consistent with his character.

I actually have no problems with Evil Daenerys. But what happened was a violation of her character.

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39 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Both Tywin and Daenerys committed war crimes.

Tywin's crime actually had a purpose behind it - the only thing lacking from textbook Machiavelli would be him executing Gregor afterwards. The episode was consistent with his character.

I actually have no problems with Evil Daenerys. But what happened was a violation of her character.

Tywin would think of himself as Machiavellian, but he isn't.  His treatment of the Reynes and Tarbecks was Macchievellian.  If you can't conciliate an enemy, you destroy them so completely that they can never threaten you again.

OTOH, his murder of Elia and her children, and the Sack of Kings Landing, were driven more by a desire for revenge and spite.  He didn't need to carry them out - and crucially - he created enemies who were determined to destroy him and his family.  It's a classic case of neither conciliating, nor destroying, one's enemies. 

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8 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

What makes you say Tywin came to the city with Targaryen banners.  I don't think I recall ever hearing that. 

Quote

"Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King's Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty" AGOT Eddard 1

Professing loyalty. Usually done via a banner. 

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