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Ser Uncle P

Tywin's Sack of KL vs Dany's burning of KL

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7 hours ago, Tyrek Lannister said:

Does Dany action even qualify as a sack? It was more akin to the historical sieges of Baghdad or Kiev by the Mongols if not worse (just cities razed to the ground and population butchered)

Tywin's sack of KL was a child's play compared to that. 

True. But Tywin was coming as the former Hand "professing loyalty", famed for running the realm well for Aerys. The smallfolk probably felt relieved when word of his coming spread. 

OTOH Dany came as a foreigner with a foreign army and a dragon. (In world) her crime would be not as bad as Tywin. 

 

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Well...

Tywin‘s sacking of KL would surely be considered a grievous war crime in our modern times, no doubt about that. But as brutal and evil as it was, it is something which happened in Eurasian history ten thousands of times. The books tell us of „hundreds of deaths“ due to the Tywin‘s sacking, so maybe 1500-2000 civilian victims of the massacre. 

Dany‘s annihiliation of KL on the other hand well this is not only a different ballpark, it’s a different ball game. And one has to really look to find something comparable in the sheer scale. The mongols really could go berserk if a city defied them, the history books of China, India, the Middle East and Eastern Europe/Russia are full of those atrocities. The only comparison I could find in Eurasian history is the annilihation of Bagdad in 1258, given the size and importance of the city and the sheer magnitude of the slaughtering.

We all saw the pictures of the burning of KL, we all saw the pillaging and slaughtering done by the Dothraki and Westerosi allies of Dany. Assuming the city had a population of 500.000 at the time, and considering the obvious lack of bomb shelters, it is not far fetched to assume at least 100.000 (or 20%) deads in this genocide. Presumably much more. When a medieval city starts burning on a massive scale, the apocalypse is near. 

A good comparison would be the sacking and burning of Magdeburg in 1631 during the 30 Years War which resulted in the death of 20.000 of its 25.000 inhabitants. 

Edited by Arakan

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58 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Well...

Tywin‘s sacking of KL would surely be considered a grievous war crime in our modern times, no doubt about that. But as brutal and evil as it was, it is something which happened in Eurasian history ten thousands of times. The books tell us of „hundreds of deaths“ due to the Tywin‘s sacking, so maybe 1500-2000 civilian victims of the massacre. 

Dany‘s annihiliation of KL on the other hand well this is not only a different ballpark, it’s a different ball game. And one has to really look to find something comparable in the sheer scale. The mongols really could go berserk if a city defied them, the history books of China, India, the Middle East and Eastern Europe/Russia are full of those atrocities. The only comparison I could find in Eurasian history is the annilihation of Bagdad in 1258, given the size and importance of the city and the sheer magnitude of the slaughtering.

We all saw the pictures of the burning of KL, we all saw the pillaging and slaughtering done by the Dothraki and Westerosi allies of Dany. Assuming the city had a population of 500.000 at the time, and considering the obvious lack of bomb shelters, it is not far fetched to assume at least 100.000 (or 20%) deads in this genocide. Presumably much more. When a medieval city starts burning on a massive scale, the apocalypse is near. 

A good comparison would be the sacking and burning of Magdeburg in 1631 during the 30 Years War which resulted in the death of 20.000 of its 25.000 inhabitants. 

If - like the show's writer - you're using the bombing of Dresden as a comparison - then I'd suggest a death rate of maybe 10%.  That's pretty ghastly, but not on the same scale as Baghdad in 1258, or Magdeburg.  In the case of the former, the carnage lasted for a week;  in the case of the latter, for three days.  

 I don't know what proportion were killed by Tywin's men and the Northerners, although Ser Jorah describes the carnage as pretty awful.

Even if Tywin killed fewer, I think his behaviour would be considered worse by people in this world.  He after all, pretended to be rescuing the city, before he turned his men loose on it.  Daenerys sought a surrender, the terms of which she would likely have honoured, and saw her best friend beheaded in front of her. That was what sealed the defenders' fate. 

As a general point, Western Europe saw slaughters which (in percentage terms) were similar to the slaughters in the East.  It's just that in absolute terms, urban populations in the East were bigger. 

Edited by SeanF

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If - like the show's writer - you're using the bombing of Dresden as a comparison - then I'd suggest a death rate of maybe 10%.  That's pretty ghastly, but not on the same scale as Baghdad in 1258.  I don't know what proportion were killed by Tywin's men and the Northerners, although Ser Jorah describes the carnage as pretty awful.

Even if Tywin killed fewer, I think his behaviour would be considered worse by people in this world.  He after all, pretended to be rescuing the city, before he turned his men loose on it.  Daenerys sought a surrender, the terms of which she would likely have honoured, and saw her best friend beheaded in front of her. That was what sealed the defenders' fate. 

As a general point, Western Europe saw slaughters which (in percentage terms) were similar to the slaughters in the East.  It's just that in absolute terms, urban populations in the East were bigger. 

No I don’t refer to Dresden. Magdeburg 1631 would be my reference point when it comes to the total burning of a „medieval“ city. 20k our of 25k perished mostly due to the massive fires. 

Oh and of course Tywin was a bona fide machiavellist but at least he never pretended to be something else ;)  

 

Edited by Arakan

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I didn't think that Tywin's sack of the city even approached the level of destruction caused by Daenerys...am I wrong?  I'm not saying Twin was "right" in what he did, it's still awful.  But it seems to me that they really can't even be compared based on the amount of destruction and the numbers that must have been killed by Drogon (not to mention the soldiers in the streets).

So what I'm saying is that, while both are bad and atrocious acts were committed, I think Daenerys' attack was MUCH worse. 

EDIT - as far as Tywin coming as their savior and then betraying them, yes, that is terrible.  But, when it really boils down to it, when you are looking at the number of families entirely wiped out, orphaned children, homeless people, horrifically maimed people, etc. I honestly think that a act of betrayal fades into the background when matched against sheer destruction and loss. 

Edited by Red Dragon10

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Magdeburg

The sacking of Magdeburg in 1631 during the 30 Years War would have been a more apt reference point if one ones to take an example out of German history. But the firebombing of Dresden is relatively well-known in the West, it’s more recent and its  quite controversial in the Anglo-American sphere. It’s actually not a really good reference point but here you go.

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24 minutes ago, Arakan said:

No I don’t refer to Dresden. Magdeburg 1631 would be my reference point when it comes to the total burning of a „medieval“ city. 20k our of 25k perished mostly due to the massive fires. 

Oh and of course Tywin was a bona fide machiavellist but at least he never pretended to be something else ;)  

 

Westeros is NOT medieval Europe.

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6 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Nah, it says nothing about Targ banners. 

For the purpose of this discussion, does it really matter whether they arrived with Targ banners or not?  We know for certain that when Tywin arrived with his army, it was believed that he was there to defend the city.  

So the original question of, is it worse to sack the city when they let you in because they thought you were going to protect them, or is it worse to destroy the city as a foreign invader, still stands.  

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5 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Nah, it says nothing about Targ banners. 

Sorry I misremembered about Targaryen banners. I was mixing it up with the Darry . tapestries

My point still stands, "professing loyalty", from a former Hand of the King. One known for being a strong and capable ruler. 

That's why , (in Westerosi terms) what Tywin did was in a sense worse than "foreigner" Dany's attack. 

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7 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

For the purpose of this discussion, does it really matter whether they arrived with Targ banners or not?  We know for certain that when Tywin arrived with his army, it was believed that he was there to defend the city.  

So the original question of, is it worse to sack the city when they let you in because they thought you were going to protect them, or is it worse to destroy the city as a foreign invader, still stands.  

Your question is one thing, and you presented the choice to include Tywin with Targ banners at the gates of KL.  That is just not backed up by any material, show or text.  For 5 books and 8 seasons we've heard all kinds of things about Tywin Lannister, not one of them says he snuck in the gates of KL behind a Targ banner.  If he had, I'm certain it would have come up in memories and discussions of the happenings of his sack of KL. 

Actually, I'm not even sure that Tywin or anyone spoke of the Lannisters army's intentions.  All we know is that Pycelle spoke up for letting them in and Varys spoke against it when informing the king they were there. 

Both actions are terrible.  By what we were shown on tv this week, though, I will say Dany's actions are worse.  I have no support for Tywin's sack of the city, I just see no evidence of him doing so behind a Targ banner. 

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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I gotta say that I think it's pretty pointless to compare and contrast the war atrocities of the various characters. So, assuming Tywin's action were "worse" under some arbitrary set of rules, would that be any consolation to the people Dany roasted?

 

 

Edited by Orphalesion

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7 hours ago, KingMudd said:

Westeros is NOT medieval Europe.

Nor are these examples from the medieval era -- both are post the discovery of perspective in art, or the entrenched extraction of plundering North and South America, well into Renaissance and Baroque.

Nor are the following links to atrocities committed upon organized urban communities. However, the numbers per se may not be as great as the atrocities in Rome of 1527, etc. but within their context, they are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_insurrection_of_1898

https://www.zinnedproject.org/if-we-knew-our-history/burning-tulsa-the-legacy-of-black-dispossession/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre

These are merely three of the many of these atrocities committed in this country alone against specifically targeted communities.  Just to put Got in perspective here!

 

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16 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Your question is one thing, and you presented the choice to include Tywin with Targ banners at the gates of KL.  That is just not backed up by any material, show or text.  For 5 books and 8 seasons we've heard all kinds of things about Tywin Lannister, not one of them says he snuck in the gates of KL behind a Targ banner.  If he had, I'm certain it would have come up in memories and discussions of the happenings of his sack of KL. 

Actually, I'm not even sure that Tywin or anyone spoke of the Lannisters army's intentions.  All we know is that Pycelle spoke up for letting them in and Varys spoke against it when informing the king they were there. 

Both actions are terrible.  By what we were shown on tv this week, though, I will say Dany's actions are worse.  I have no support for Tywin's sack of the city, I just see no evidence of him doing so behind a Targ banner. 

Actually it wasn't me who suggested Tywin came with Targ banners.  ;) I doubt he had Targ banners, he was mostly likely flying the Lannister lion.  I was just pointing out that for the original question that was posed by the OP, it doesn't really matter.  The point is, I think they thought the Lannisters were friendly...not there to sack the city.  I believe the OP posted somewhere else on this thread a quote (I think by Ned) saying that Aerys must have "thought the gods were answering his prayers" when Tywin showed up.  Which to me indicates that most people would have seen his arrival as a protecting presence/friend of the current king.  Varys usually has a better idea of what is really going on, so I'm not surprised that he didn't think that Tywin was there to help the Targ's. 

Long story short, I agree there is no evidence that he had a Targ banner.  And I agree that Daenerys' actions were worse and will have caused far more damage. 

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On 5/15/2019 at 1:39 PM, Ser Uncle P said:

So on a scale of dishonourable behaviour in war (by Westeros "norms" ) is HBO Dany's burning of smallfolk worse than Book Tywin's Sack of KL after the Trident? 

Tywin was a former Hand, and had lived and worked in the capitol for years. He basically turned his troops loose on the people he ruled over in Aerys' name. The arrival of his forces carrying Targaryen banners would have been welcomed by the smallfolk, as they knew him as a capable figure. He brutally betrayed them by sacking the city. 

In contrast, TV Dany had only set foot in KL once, and was basically a foreigner. I'd argue that loosing Drogon on the street wasn't as bad (by westerosi norms) as Tywin's Sack.  

Death count aside, there is literally no difference.

What Tywin did was equally reprehensible and I don’t see anyone calling him “mad.”

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I'll go with Tywin. His massacre was pre-planned, while what Daenerys done is happened in heat of the battle. I also doubt that most of King's Landing's population is truly dead. We've seen Davos' helping many people out. It's just more dramatic to show people who died instead of many who simply run away.

Edited by martianmister

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54 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Actually it wasn't me who suggested Tywin came with Targ banners.  ;) I doubt he had Targ banners, he was mostly likely flying the Lannister lion.  I was just pointing out that for the original question that was posed by the OP, it doesn't really matter.  The point is, I think they thought the Lannisters were friendly...not there to sack the city.  I believe the OP posted somewhere else on this thread a quote (I think by Ned) saying that Aerys must have "thought the gods were answering his prayers" when Tywin showed up.  Which to me indicates that most people would have seen his arrival as a protecting presence/friend of the current king.  Varys usually has a better idea of what is really going on, so I'm not surprised that he didn't think that Tywin was there to help the Targ's. 

Long story short, I agree there is no evidence that he had a Targ banner.  And I agree that Daenerys' actions were worse and will have caused far more damage. 

LOL  Sorry on the misunderstanding, I found the notifications to posts from both you and the OP and got confused on that point.  Obviously no confusion on my belief in Targ banners. 

I do think both are in some ways, equally horrible.  It's just that Dany had a much more effective weapon?  What would Tywin have managed with that and the Mountain and Lorch and a professional army as well? 

2 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

Sorry I misremembered about Targaryen banners. I was mixing it up with the Darry . tapestries

My point still stands, "professing loyalty", from a former Hand of the King. One known for being a strong and capable ruler. 

That's why , (in Westerosi terms) what Tywin did was in a sense worse than "foreigner" Dany's attack. 

Ah yes, those Darry tapestries.  I wonder if we will ever be able to see them.

As I said to the above poster, yes, what Dany did was horrible, but she had a more effective weapon in Drogon.  I have to admit, the idea of Tywin with a dragon, or two or three, is a bit scary.  In the books, many of the common people are remembering the reigns of the Targs with fondness as I recall, Davos making note of talk in taverns, it's even mentioned, I think........in Brienne's and others travels through the Riverlands.  The people have had it with all the wars, and look back on Targ times as peace.  I don't think many, book wise anyway, consider Dany 'foreign.'  That could change, but I don't see it yet.  JMO 

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream

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6 hours ago, Zorral said:

Nor are these examples from the medieval era -- both are post the discovery of perspective in art, or the entrenched extraction of plundering North and South America, well into Renaissance and Baroque.

Nor are the following links to atrocities committed upon organized urban communities. However, the numbers per se may not be as great as the atrocities in Rome of 1527, etc. but within their context, they are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_insurrection_of_1898

https://www.zinnedproject.org/if-we-knew-our-history/burning-tulsa-the-legacy-of-black-dispossession/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre

These are merely three of the many of these atrocities committed in this country alone against specifically targeted communities.  Just to put Got in perspective here!

 

I was just making a joke about another thread a poster here started.

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