Who told the People/Soldiers that the bell was for surrender?

[maiden of tarth]

17 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I actually had a post on this the other day, not only does legit  gendry become roberts heir but even if we look at pre rebellion line of succession

King Aryes II

Rhaegar

Rhaegar's Legitamite Male issue in age order

Viscyers

Viscyers legitimate male issue in age order

Robert ((Rhaegar's cousin and grand son of Rhaelle and great grandson of Aegon V)

Robert's legitamite issue in age order

 

 

Which means, with Aryes, Rhaegar, Baby Aegon, Vicsyers and Robert dead a legitimized Lord Gendry Baratheon is still in line for the throne before Dany as Targaryen primogeniture is agnatic since the great council of 101 where all male heirs were given primacy over any female. Smart danny. So the line of sucession as it stands now would be Jon as the son of Rhaegar though it looks like he has no interest in the crown and would probably rather spent his time back in the north living a life of repose. Then Gendry THEN Dany and the second Gendry knocks out a legitimate heir Dany is all through.

 

Raising him up earlier on does have potential, but just never would have seemed practical. You can only get raised from bastardy by royal decree, same with being given a lordship (especially of a great house like Storm's End). So who would do it? A living Robert I? That would cause way more problems with cersei than he ever seemed to want to be bothered with plus would be an impossition on Tommen (assuming robert doesn't know about Joff and Tommen being bastards I am sure the plan was for Tommen to be lord of storms end when he came to majority and hold it for his brother kIng Joff). So looks like Robert wouldn't raise him. Then you have Joff. Forget it. ANd after him Tommen which cersei would have seen to never happening for one of roberts bastards. So while it would surely have been interesting to see Gendry in the ultimate rags to riches as lord of storms end, there is simply never a monarch for whom it would have made any sense to actually do it)

 

Not sure what Martin's intention is with Storm, would love to know. Obviously with his mother being Delena Florent it would be even easier to sell it. One think I am sadly pretty sure of is that Martin will not actually release a book.

This would be the perfect solution. Gendry would be a great king with Davos as his hand. He would probably be happy to let the north be independent and Jon rule as King in the North. 

[YOVMO]

Just now, maiden of tarth said:

This would be the perfect solution. Gendry would be a great king with Davos as his hand. He would probably be happy to let the north be independent and Jon rule as King in the North. 

While I do think he has the temperament to be a good king and a good maester could teach him and davos the finer points of governance, the problem with him being king is he doesn't really have any great alliances....the kind that are forged in youth. Think of Robert. The stormlands are loyal to him (with the exception of i think 3 minor loyalist houses that sided with Aerys but wound up bending the knee after the rebellion) and while the stormlords would have followed Gendry it wouldn't be the kind of blood loyalty they had for Robert. Robert was fostered in the Vale and Jon Arryn was like a father to him. He was fostered with Ned and ned was like a brother to him. Ned brings the Tully's and with them the Riverlands. Robert Married Cersei bringing in the Westerlands. The iron Islands tried and failed an uprising and were brought to heel. Just through blood, fostering, marriage and friendship Robert had the loyalty of 5 of the 7 kingdoms, the iron islands posed no threat and the tyrells were power hungry and easily bought off with honors and titles. Dorne had no love for robert, but 1 out of 7 isn't bad.

Add to this that robert fought a war as its leader and as such was a fabled character to the small folk and had targaryen blood connecting him to the older dynasty.

These are the kinds of relationships that take many generations to form and are absolutely required for a monarch to have.

If Gendry calls the banners does he even get all the storm lords?

As for Jon bringing back the style King in the North I really don't like this for a lot of reasons. The practicality of the interconnected nature of the kingdoms forged over 300 years since Aegon's conquest aside, Jon seems burned out from command. He is also, I think, technically undead at this point.

[Knugen]

19 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

While I do think he has the temperament to be a good king and a good maester could teach him and davos the finer points of governance, the problem with him being king is he doesn't really have any great alliances....the kind that are forged in youth. Think of Robert. The stormlands are loyal to him (with the exception of i think 3 minor loyalist houses that sided with Aerys but wound up bending the knee after the rebellion) and while the stormlords would have followed Gendry it wouldn't be the kind of blood loyalty they had for Robert. Robert was fostered in the Vale and Jon Arryn was like a father to him. He was fostered with Ned and ned was like a brother to him. Ned brings the Tully's and with them the Riverlands. Robert Married Cersei bringing in the Westerlands. The iron Islands tried and failed an uprising and were brought to heel. Just through blood, fostering, marriage and friendship Robert had the loyalty of 5 of the 7 kingdoms, the iron islands posed no threat and the tyrells were power hungry and easily bought off with honors and titles. Dorne had no love for robert, but 1 out of 7 isn't bad.

Add to this that robert fought a war as its leader and as such was a fabled character to the small folk and had targaryen blood connecting him to the older dynasty.

These are the kinds of relationships that take many generations to form and are absolutely required for a monarch to have.

If Gendry calls the banners does he even get all the storm lords?

As for Jon bringing back the style King in the North I really don't like this for a lot of reasons. The practicality of the interconnected nature of the kingdoms forged over 300 years since Aegon's conquest aside, Jon seems burned out from command. He is also, I think, technically undead at this point.

Yeah, that’s true. The game of thrones would start very short after that again. The vale, The north, the iron island and others would break away from the “7” kingdoms. It would all turn to what it was before the Targs.

[Beardy the Wildling]

15 hours ago, Nightwish said:

He did, they made sure to repeat it for us all not to forget it when the time came for Dany to get mad. Like we are dumb or something LOL

D&D, thinking their audience is dumb? Say it ain't so!

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

D&D, thinking their audience is dumb? Say it ain't so!

I actually heard a pretty funny and at the same time intelligent and insightful comment yesterday from a friend of mine. He said that writers simply cannot write characters which are smarter than they are. Because of this, the absolute peak of intelligence the characters can have in the show without martin's direct contribution is capped at the level of intelligence of D and D and since they are mind numbingly stupid, even the smartest of their characters are stuck at that level. It isn't that they think their audience is dumb, they are just writing what they can based on their own limited intelligence.

[Beardy the Wildling]

12 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

He said that writers simply cannot write characters which are smarter than they are.

This is absolutely true. Why do you think Hollywood Geniuses just go around saying long words and never demonstrating the academic skill of concision?

It's because Hollywood writers are rarely smart, so when they look at, say, a scientist, all they understand is they're saying a bunch of complicated shit they don't understand and they've discovered/invented things that help people.

[YOVMO]

5 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

This is absolutely true. Why do you think Hollywood Geniuses just go around saying long words and never demonstrating the academic skill of concision?

It's because Hollywood writers are rarely smart, so when they look at, say, a scientist, all they understand is they're saying a bunch of complicated shit they don't understand and they've discovered/invented things that help people.

HA! This makes perfect sense. Every show with some "genius scientist" is basically a thesaurus driven ding bat convention. Fantastic!

[YOVMO]

6 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

This is absolutely true. Why do you think Hollywood Geniuses just go around saying long words and never demonstrating the academic skill of concision?

It's because Hollywood writers are rarely smart, so when they look at, say, a scientist, all they understand is they're saying a bunch of complicated shit they don't understand and they've discovered/invented things that help people.

Chuck Lorre writes tv show about geniuses.

 

This is gonna be GREAT!

[Parwan Nays]

On 5/16/2019 at 11:28 AM, Bradam said:

Lannisters threw down thier swords and there was like a 15 minutes pause of everyone standing around uhhhhhhhhhh...  bunch of "ring the bells" shouts from random red shirts.  Cut to Jamie running around and around will he do it???   Oh wait he gone out on the beach because there was no gaurds or even a gate or.. anything.  Wait there's Euron! In the exact same spot!  and zero other ironborn because fuck them guys, they all drowned or something.  More wait for it.. wait..  Dramatic pause of FFS something happen before i go make a sandwhich.. THEN the bells finally started ringing. Or bell, they really only showed the one bell in the tower ring. 

Yeah, this gets to the point pretty well. There's so much dumb stuff going on, why even try to rationalize the dumb bell stuff? This cartoon pirate guy pops up out of the sea and challenges the Kingslayer to a duel. Now, that's just exactly what a cartoon pirate guy would do in this situation, right? I mean, he hears a city dying, there's no way he'd try to save his own life or anything rational like that. He has to challenge the Kingslayer to kill him, because the great Euron is a king. It's clear he's a king because he fucked the queen. Man, I really admire some of these actors. They can often do a good job with thoroughly off-the-wall material and stupid dialogue. 

On 5/16/2019 at 2:44 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

@Knugen True.

Here's another way to know that it is a super-contrived sloppy example of bad writing.

No one in the city knows that ringing the bells means surrender and that therefore the bells should be rung as soon as things start going south.

Cersei had the city on lockdown. Tyrion never told her or anyone on her side that the bells mean surrender during the parley. The two camps were no longer on speaking terms after Missandei's death. Tyrion didn't give Jaime instructions to spread the word and Jaime never bothered spreading the word.

So how could they know?

Okay, so let's go ahead and look at the dumb bell stuff for the hell of it. According to the "plan" (If you insist on honoring it with that name), Jaime would have to get Cersei to agree to escape. Of course, Cersei has made it clear that she thinks she is going to win and that Jaime is a traitor. Somehow, Jaime convinces Cersei to get the hell out of KL Dodge. They stroll past her two gunslinger cohorts (the creep and the Thing), who make no objection to being left behind. The two Lannisters then inform the bell ringer(s) to ring the bell(s), and they head for the hills. 

Upon hearing this "plan," Jaime, who has a few functioning brain cells left, objects that sailing a skiff through the pirate fleet parked outside Dodge City wouldn't be a good idea. Tyrion, who used to be able to think, informs him that the pirate fleet won't be there anymore. So we have brilliant tactics: Jaime and Cersei will be able to sail freely out of the bay and head to Esos, because Dany's attack will have destroyed the fleet. This will prevent Dany's attack and save the city. 

Clearly, someone has bats in the belfry. 

[BlackLightning]

4 minutes ago, Parwan Nays said:

Yeah, this gets to the point pretty well. There's so much dumb stuff going on, why even try to rationalize the dumb bell stuff? This cartoon pirate guy pops up out of the sea and challenges the Kingslayer to a duel. Now, that's just exactly what a cartoon pirate guy would do in this situation, right? I mean, he hears a city dying, there's no way he'd try to save his own life or anything rational like that. He has to challenge the Kingslayer to kill him, because the great Euron is a king. It's clear he's a king because he fucked the queen. Man, I really admire some of these actors. They can often do a good job with thoroughly off-the-wall material and stupid dialogue. 

Okay, so let's go ahead and look at the dumb bell stuff for the hell of it. According to the "plan" (If you insist on honoring it with that name), Jaime would have to get Cersei to agree to escape. Of course, Cersei has made it clear that she thinks she is going to win and that Jaime is a traitor. Somehow, Jaime convinces Cersei to get the hell out of KL Dodge. They stroll past her two gunslinger cohorts (the creep and the Thing), who make no objection to being left behind. The two Lannisters then inform the bell ringer(s) to ring the bell(s), and they head for the hills. 

Upon hearing this "plan," Jaime, who has a few functioning brain cells left, objects that sailing a skiff through the pirate fleet parked outside Dodge City wouldn't be a good idea. Tyrion, who used to be able to think, informs him that the pirate fleet won't be there anymore. So we have brilliant tactics: Jaime and Cersei will be able to sail freely out of the bay and head to Esos, because Dany's attack will have destroyed the fleet. This will prevent Dany's attack and save the city. 

Clearly, someone has bats in the belfry. 

Thank you for pointing this out.

People can just disregard the fact that Jaime has only one hand and Cersei looks and act like she's never had to do a physically intensive activity a day in her life.

So rowing a skiff from King's Landing all the way to Pentos will totally work. Of course, they have to make it past all of the broken, burning warships and the smoke coming off of it...but it doesn't matter because plot and tHe sUBveRsIOn Of eXpEcTAtiOnS!

[Lord Invictus]

This did bring up a question, if bells don’t mean surrender what does?

I suppose, depending on the context bells could and could not mean surrender.

As far as I know, there is no white flag in Westeros, dipped banners? Also Cersei didn’t give the stand down order, the Lannister garrison and population yielded of their own initiative. 

[Dominic]

Good point about the bells. For my own amusement i re-wrote the last 2 episodes to be more consistent with GOT. I had Tyrion ring the first bell, and encouraging the people to ring the others. The significance of this, in my re-rewrite, was to get Dany to accept the surrender and not blitz all of Kings Landing.