GRRM struggling how to show Daenerys' mental instability

[LanMandragoran]

54 minutes ago, TheSmallOther said:

Targaryen going mad doesn't fit his character? It fits perfectly. Although, I'd expect that GRRM would prepare us for it. In fact, he already does, but it's easier to see things when you look back. Perhaps we'll have both Cersei and Dany becoming mad.

Not all Targaryens are mad. The gods flip a coin, right? Her brother Viserys mad, but she herself compassionate and with a moral compass (mostly meaning that she has not shown that she believes the end justifies the means, so far). Rhaegar also a good chap by all accounts.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

23 hours ago, btfu806 said:

I mean, her going mad is definitely happening in the books. Or at least, it is implied heavily that it is going to go down in the books. Maybe she comes back at the last minute, who knows. But I doubt he is struggling with her madness or showing madness, it is already happening.

Lol, where is it "implied heavily" that Dany is going mad? Where are the situations where Dany has to struggle with "madness". The books are pretty clear that Targ "madness" came from the prophetic dreams that seemingly runs in the bloodline. Some Targs cannot handle the terrible visions they see, like Aerys, and goes mad. But Dany has never had problems with her visions. She does remember her three betrayals, but it doesn't drive her mad at any point.

[White26]

I am not convinced of Targaryen madness being a thing like it is commonly preceived. I think that it is an exaggeration of nobles. Aerys seems to be mad, but he was called that by others who defeated him. But even if we assume that he was mad, what other Targaryens were truly mad?

Lets look at Viserys. Was he mad? For me he wasn't. He was deluded, weak and in some way depressed because of self imposed responsibillity of being last male Targaryen, single person whose purpose and aim was to restore his family or let her die. He was homeless pawn of others. He lived tragic life which ended with tragedy as well. Nothing mad in him, he was only a weak person made like that because of circumstances.

Rhaegar. Everyone say he was good person but at the same time melancholic and apparently obsessed with prophecies. Because of his obsession he procured a war which destroyed his family.

Daenerys also seems mad but like them, not in a way like Aerys II was. She is fixated with her goals, like Rhaegar or Viserys with theirs, to bring freedom to the slaves. When she will come to Westeros, she will direct it in different way, for her to take the throne, make some changes or revolution, we don't know. But it is still a fixation. So I think that she will never go mad to the extent like Aerys. She already is like Viserys and Rhaegar only difference is she and Rhaegar are strong while Viserys was a weak fool.

So Daenerys is mad already and in her progression she will just be more and more cruel and ruthless in pursuing her goals. Signs of it are already visible in Slavers Bay. She wants to change social order not understanding it. The same will be in Westeros.

[Lady Rhodes]

13 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But in any case, the rise of Darth Daenerys the Dragonlord and the downfall of Essos in The Winds of Winter still leaves plenty of time for Daenerys to reflect, fall in love, soften, be humbled, smile and decide that her choices aren't limited to fire and/or blood in A Dream of Spring

I actually 100% agree with this. I am hoping this is the conclusion we get in the books.

[White26]

2 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I actually 100% agree with this. I am hoping this is the conclusion we get in the books.

I think that all background about incest and madness fits a purpose and is forshadowing Daenerys cruelty and ruthlesness. Add to that Rhaenyra's example, she went "mad" because of death of her children.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 5/16/2019 at 6:44 PM, LanMandragoran said:

The books are currently struggling with the Meereenese knot and GRRM can't seem to get past that; and I am wondering if it is because he is going to have to start turning Daenerys more unstable from that moment.

Doesn't the Mereeneese knot have to do with the logistics of moving the characters from one place to another? That's what I think GRRM said in interviews a while back. He's kind of lagging behind in Dany's arc. Some characters should have progressed far in the story but haven't by the end of ADwD. 

Also, Dany's arc has too many things going on. She's supposed to figure out controlling dragons, then fulfill the parts of the Undying prophesy about returning to Vaes Dothrak and the crones, then get vengeance on Mago, and then meet Tyrion, get on with the second boss Euron arc, deal with the plague, etc, etc. He left out her POV in Feast and now it's a mess. 

I think GRRM must have told D&D that Dany is going to purge a city, Arthas-style (my opinion). But as usual they didn't really understand it and screwed it up. Remember that there's a PLAGUE in Mereen, Dany is also plagued. The second fire she lights is for death. She probably has to purge the city she saved, and possibly kill non-infected people, to contain the disease. She might jump in the fire too and cure herself (MMZ tells in Book 1 that fire has cleansing magic). I mean, she's literally on the verge of death when the other khal finds her. 

And when people see her burning Mereen, they might call her mad, though she is doing the most reasonable thing. In Book 1 people think her mad for trying to revive the dragons, and in Book 2 Ser Jorah, Xaro and her bloodriders call her mad for wanting to go into the House of the Undying. So Dany is known to do things that others perceive as mad, but aren't necessarily so when it comes to the overall story. 

[btfu806]

15 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Lol, where is it "implied heavily" that Dany is going mad? Where are the situations where Dany has to struggle with "madness". The books are pretty clear that Targ "madness" came from the prophetic dreams that seemingly runs in the bloodline. Some Targs cannot handle the terrible visions they see, like Aerys, and goes mad. But Dany has never had problems with her visions. She does remember her three betrayals, but it doesn't drive her mad at any point.

Her last few chapters in Dance it shows how her emotions and gut run her instincts. that she doesn't always think things through. Now you can blame it on her advisers not being there and that is a fair judgement.

But her going and becoming mad is talked about a lot in the books...

Obviously her father is mad and Illyrio talks to Tyrion about her brother is slightly mad. "Visery's was the mad king's son, just so."

Selmy references the God's flip a coin on Targ Madness, so you could say her coin is still spinning..

Quentyn Martell talks about madness in the Targ bloodline.

Ser Kevan references her being as mad as her father.

Arianne Martell also worries she is mad

as does Ser Daemon.

There have been roughly 5 or 6 mad kings and princes in the Targ family.

The seeds were definitely planted and constantly referred to in the books that she could go mad. I am not saying she is mad right now. But it is heavily hinted and implied in the books that it could happen.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

3 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Her last few chapters in Dance it shows how her emotions and gut run her instincts. that she doesn't always think things through. Now you can blame it on her advisers not being there and that is a fair judgement.

But her going and becoming mad is talked about a lot in the books...

Obviously her father is mad and Illyrio talks to Tyrion about her brother is slightly mad. "Visery's was the mad king's son, just so."

Selmy references the God's flip a coin on Targ Madness, so you could say her coin is still spinning..

Quentyn Martell talks about madness in the Targ bloodline.

Ser Kevan references her being as mad as her father.

Arianne Martell also worries she is mad

as does Ser Daemon.

There have been roughly 5 or 6 mad kings and princes in the Targ family.

The seeds were definitely planted and constantly referred to in the books that she could go mad. I am not saying she is mad right now. But it is heavily hinted and implied in the books that it could happen.

Right, it's there like an ominous hint. But the Targ madness isn't actually madness like being schizo. Their madness has a magical link to it (dream visions). Dany's dad was pretty normal when he was younger, though kind of an arrogant a-hole. He goes mad much later, and has all these fire associations to it. So probably like other Targs before him, he saw prophetic visions he didn't understand and went insane. Viserys is not mad just psycho (and also stupid). In Dany chapters it's hinted that he became really vicious because of the exile, displacement, and all the uncertainty that came with it. But Dany's never had problems with dreams she sees.

In Dance, Dany is conflicted because of the compromises she has to make. Opening the fighting pits is one big example. She doesn't want to do it, but it advised it's the best way to make peace and move forward. But she knows it's wrong, can't stand it, and ends up flying away. 

I mentioned this elsewhere, but sometimes people consider certain things Dany does to be mad, even when we know it isn't. Way back in book 1, when Dany anoints her bloodriders and prepares Drogo's funeral pyre, everyone considers her mad. Then in book 2, when she's about to step into the House of Undying, everyone around her cautions it's a silly folly. But how the scenarios actually play out is quite different. 

I'm not sure if there's a historical inspiration for Dany, but it's possible that people just think of her as mad just because they don't really understand what she does. Her reputation has always preceded her. The burning of KL might be D&D's (disastrous) take on the fire that Dany has to light"to death."

[btfu806]

3 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Right, it's there like an ominous hint. But the Targ madness isn't actually madness like being schizo. Their madness has a magical link to it (dream visions). Dany's dad was pretty normal when he was younger, though kind of an arrogant a-hole. He goes mad much later, and has all these fire associations to it. So probably like other Targs before him, he saw prophetic visions he didn't understand and went insane. Viserys is not mad just psycho (and also stupid). In Dany chapters it's hinted that he became really vicious because of the exile, displacement, and all the uncertainty that came with it. But Dany's never had problems with dreams she sees.

In Dance, Dany is conflicted because of the compromises she has to make. Opening the fighting pits is one big example. She doesn't want to do it, but it advised it's the best way to make peace and move forward. But she knows it's wrong, can't stand it, and ends up flying away. 

I mentioned this elsewhere, but sometimes people consider certain things Dany does to be mad, even when we know it isn't. Way back in book 1, when Dany anoints her bloodriders and prepares Drogo's funeral pyre, everyone considers her mad. Then in book 2, when she's about to step into the House of Undying, everyone around her cautions it's a silly folly. But how the scenarios actually play out is quite different. 

I'm not sure if there's a historical inspiration for Dany, but it's possible that people just think of her as mad just because they don't really understand what she does. Her reputation has always preceded her. The burning of KL might be D&D's (disastrous) take on the fire that Dany has to light"to death."

I am trying to remember, Dany's father had visions when he was younger? Do we ever know when he did? Because if he had them when he was younger and could control them like Dany can, then the story could parallel. Dany/Mad King control visions early on to only slowly be broken down by them because of outside conflicts that take place, such as the ones happening to Dany. They change the way she views the world, changes the way she views dreams/interprets them.

And you're right, the actions she does that other see as mad, we understand because we get her point of view. Is part of that purpose for us to see the POV of other "mad" kings and realize maybe they were not so mad. That we see things only from other's view and how they interpret these events...

I think her character starts off (pretty) simple and develops into a complex one. I think D&D botched the complexity of her character or didn't realize it was supposed to be so complex.

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, T and A said:

I never understood why GRRM gets the pass by the fandom, though. We act as if the show is not a decent adaption of the books. But here is what bookfans forget on purpose: there are no books. GRRM has not published Winds for 8 years now. Obviously he is also struggling to how to end this story properly. Why no backlash on him though? I mean, to adapt something, you also need the adapting material. If the author doesn't know how to end the story, how could hollywood do a decent job, when even he can't.This is not say, that is solely his part, that the show sucks though. D&D must also be able to write a decent the story by themself. I just want to make the point, that the fandom is pretty one-sided. When you offer someone your books to adapt, you better do the work first. And when you sell something and make millions out of it, you are also responsible to your fans, to end this decently. I love GRRM, but, I am also not on board with "blame only HBO". I blame him too, albeit on a different level.

The bold pretty much invalidates everything you have said.

How can D&D call themselves writers if they can't even write a proper ending. GRRM told them the ending but they chose to take other paths and drop plotlines that they had been intentionally developing since episode 1 because they wanted to subvert expectations.

How can you as a screenwriter say that Daenerys forgot about Euron and the Iron Fleet when they have ambushed and destroyed her forces not once but twice. And on top of that, in the previous scene, Daenerys actually verbally acknowledges the Iron Fleet and makes a plan to personally escort her fleet with her dragons. And then for you to be the one who actually wrote the episode?!

WTF?!

And no the show is not a decent adaptation of the books. How can it be if the writers of the show cannot write a decent story...by themselves.

David Benioff said this:

“From the beginning we’ve talked about how the show would end. A good story isn’t a good story if you have a bad ending. Of course we worry.”

https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/04/game-of-thrones-finale-showrunners/

Like how can you defend this?

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

26 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I am trying to remember, Dany's father had visions when he was younger? Do we ever know when he did? Because if he had them when he was younger and could control them like Dany can, then the story could parallel. Dany/Mad King control visions early on to only slowly be broken down by them because of outside conflicts that take place, such as the ones happening to Dany. They change the way she views the world, changes the way she views dreams/interprets them.

No no. Aerys was known as mad only in his later years. When he was younger, as in during the time he ascended the throne, he wasn't mad. Though he was kind of cruel, like in the things he says to Joanna Lannister. He is kind of like Viserys, had Viserys grown up secure in a castle. But in later years the casual cruelty becomes pyromaniacal madness. Aerys is unusually paranoid, afraid even of his own son. And then he becomes so obsessed with fire to the point that he gets sexually aroused by seeing people burn. 

All, or at least most Targs, get these prophetic visions. Even the rather secular Egg, Aegon V, had these dragon visions. Not all Targs are driven mad by these. Some deal with it, but others become obsessed. It's possible that they either misinterpret the visions they see, or they get bombarded with visions, or see things that are truly terrifying to the point of driving someone perfectly sane into madness. 

Dany doesn't take these dragon visions too seriously though. In earlier books, they are just dreams. What makes her a bit paranoid are the prophesies the Undying gives her. She repeatedly thinks about the three betrayals, because the MMZ ordeal leaves her really shaken. She talks about these with Jorah, and it pops up in Dance, but Dany was never mad like Aerys was.

In the show, she seems paranoid about her claim to the throne, even though she has no reason to be. She has dragons, so she's the head of House Targareyn, even if there's an older male heir before her. Aegon I changed the succession and marriage rules for his House in Westeros, so there's no reason Dany can't either. But the showrunners never explore this possibility, and keep insisting Jon is the "true heir," happily ignoring the fact that the Targ throne was usurped.

Anyway, they wanted to say Dany has gone mad because she burns KL, though she doesn't seem mad in the classic Targ sense. They can, technically, turn this around. But I don't think D&D really cares about any of it anymore. 

26 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

I think her character starts off (pretty) simple and develops into a complex one. I think D&D botched the complexity of her character or didn't realize it was supposed to be so complex.

Exactly. I didn't think much of her character (except for the dragon parts) until I read the books. At many times Dany on screen seems like a caricature of her book character. Then again I think we can say this for most characters, though no one else gets the horrifying treatment Dany gets in the hands of D&D. 

[T and A]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The bold pretty much invalidates everything you have said.

How can D&D call themselves writers if they can't even write a proper ending. GRRM told them the ending but they chose to take other paths and drop plotlines that they had been intentionally developing since episode 1 because they wanted to subvert expectations.

How can you as a screenwriter say that Daenerys forgot about Euron and the Iron Fleet when they have ambushed and destroyed her forces not once but twice. And on top of that, in the previous scene, Daenerys actually verbally acknowledges the Iron Fleet and makes a plan to personally escort her fleet with her dragons. And then for you to be the one who actually wrote the episode?!

WTF?!

And no the show is not a decent adaptation of the books. How can it be if the writers of the show cannot write a decent story...by themselves.

David Benioff said this:

“From the beginning we’ve talked about how the show would end. A good story isn’t a good story if you have a bad ending. Of course we worry.”

https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/04/game-of-thrones-finale-showrunners/

Like how can you defend this?

How much time did it took you, to write something that was not relevant to my post? 

[BlackLightning]

6 minutes ago, T and A said:

How much time did it took you, to write something that was not relevant to my post? 

Not long at all.

Why? Because it was relevant to your post.

You ask why GRRM seems to be getting a pass. Then you make it out to be like the show is a decent adaptation of the books. Then you turn around and admit that D&D must be able to write a decent story by themselves. Which leads to the whole point of your post: GRRM should not get a pass.

But it doesn't make sense because, according to you, D&D are the showrunners/head directors/head writers who must be able to write a decent story by themselves. And then D&D -- who you are defending with your post -- do joint interviews together where they make statements like "a good story isn't a good story if it has a bad ending" and "we worry."

So, logically, if they are writing a bad ending to a otherwise good story, it is:

1. no longer a good story
2. their fault and their fault alone

GRRM has nothing to do with it.

If you have five books out of a seven book epic to adapt, then you are already over halfway done. All you really need to concentrate on is the ending (which they already knew), concentrate on the point at which you left off (which they already knew) and then play connect the dots. If you have to write original material to help the dots connect, so be it. But the whole point of the original material is to connect the dots.

So yes. It didn't take me long to write something very relevant to your post. Seems like D&D aren't the only ones who can't connect the dots.

[T and A]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Not long at all.

Why? Because it was relevant to your post.

You ask why GRRM seems to be getting a pass. Then you make it out to be like the show is a decent adaptation of the books. Then you turn around and admit that D&D must be able to write a decent story by themselves. Which leads to the whole point of your post: GRRM should not get a pass.

But it doesn't make sense because, according to you, D&D are the showrunners/head directors/head writers who must be able to write a decent story by themselves. And then D&D -- who you are defending with your post -- do joint interviews together where they make statements like "a good story isn't a good story if it has a bad ending" and "we worry."

So, logically, if they are writing a bad ending to a otherwise good story, it is:

1. no longer a good story
2. their fault and their fault alone

GRRM has nothing to do with it.

If you have five books out of a seven book epic to adapt, then you are already over halfway done. All you really need to concentrate on is the ending (which they already knew), concentrate on the point at which you left off (which they already knew) and then play connect the dots. If you have to write original material to help the dots connect, so be it. But the whole point of the original material is to connect the dots.

So yes. It didn't take me long to write something very relevant to your post. Seems like D&D aren't the only ones who can't connect the dots.

You still didn't got the point of my post. Next shot.

[MagicPen]

6 hours ago, T and A said:

C. You don't know either what is in his head. And yet, you make the same definitive statements. Ironic, isn't it?

D. If he is not struggeling, he is then lying, because he has stated in several interviews (you can look it up) that he is "struggeling". In fact, he has used the term "struggeling". Either he is struggeling, or he isn't writing. These are the two only options, when you can't deliver a book, and you already have four years of delay. I don't think he is lying.

So, stop being rude and a smartass, when you aren't much informed. 

You are making definitive statements about Dany going mad, by having little evidence to back it up.

Meanwhile i'm saying that there's two Targaryans ( which is not something that may or may not happen), that have armies, and that there will be conflict between them, because they both want the same thing.

You clearly can't grasp the difference between them, and no that doesn't make me a smart ass, its just make you not smart.

Also the only thing GRRM is struggling with, and has actually confirmed on multiple interviews is his slow writing. Slow writing doesn't mean struggling only, it can mean that, but it can also mean that he is a perfectionist and wants to get it right.

[SeanF]

I think that Daenerys finishing as a tragic heroine would be in keeping with her character arc in the books, and could have been in keeping with her character arc in the show.  The tragic hero/heroine is a person who is noble, but not wholly good;  who is brought down by some flaw of character that results in an appalling misjudgement;  but their downfall is not due to inherent vice or depravity.  Othello, or Romeo and Juliet, are good examples.

The problem is that D & D were incapable of writing such an ending, even if they intended to.  We got instead, Her Satanic Majesty, a demonic figure of pure evil.  Or alternatively, Unity Mitford delivering a speech at Nuremberg.  And, that was never in keeping with her character.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

 

On 5/16/2019 at 9:39 AM, LanMandragoran said:

I hope she doesn't as it doesn't fit her character, but if GRRM has told DD the ending and they have kept fairly true to it, it seems likely that he will. And if so, it has to start in Essos. She can't be a benign liberator there, in a moral effort to distance herself from her mad father, and then turn herself into what she always hated (her brother mostly, but her father in memory).

One of the things people forget is that Aerys II was seen as a great king early in his rule.  He was forward thinking and creative.  He went mad as this rule continued and after he had been captured and imprisoned in "The Defiance of Duskendale" mentioned in A Feast for Crows.  It seems that particular experience changed him and pushed him toward madness.  If the books follow the same pattern as the series I have to wonder if the experience of defending the North from the Others will change Dany.  Or will there be some other episode that will push her towards madness?

I agree that the show handled this very poorly.  She went from willing to sacrifice everything for her people to carpet chewing crazy lady without even a blink.  I would hope that the mention of "The Defiance of Duskendale" in AFFC's creates a pattern we can watch for that will be the impetus for Dany's eventual fall, if fall she does.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

On 5/17/2019 at 7:06 AM, Xemi said:

Because his blind fanboys still think his books are gonna be perfect and close everything in a satisfactory manner where their headcanon becomes true.

Newsflash: The books will never be finished.

See the future, can you?  Quite the talent you have there.

[SeanF]

59 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 

One of the things people forget is that Aerys II was seen as a great king early in his rule.  He was forward thinking and creative.  He went mad as this rule continued and after he had been captured and imprisoned in "The Defiance of Duskendale" mentioned in A Feast for Crows.  It seems that particular experience changed him and pushed him toward madness.  If the books follow the same pattern as the series I have to wonder if the experience of defending the North from the Others will change Dany.  Or will there be some other episode that will push her towards madness?

I agree that the show handled this very poorly.  She went from willing to sacrifice everything for her people to carpet chewing crazy lady without even a blink.  I would hope that the mention of "The Defiance of Duskendale" in AFFC's creates a pattern we can watch for that will be the impetus for Dany's eventual fall, if fall she does.

Or perhaps if she falls, it would be out of a desire to do good, rather than due to madness, eg she has the firepower to push through Egg's intended reforms, but goes too far in crushing opposition to them.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Extreme power at her disposal that is very easy to use, and I think Dany is a study in how authoritarian regimes wrap themselves in the guise of revolution. Orwell would approve. Madness doesnt even have to figure into it.