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"Bittersweet" can't happen in the show


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It depends on your opinion on bittersweet. If it ends with Jon killing Dany, then it would be mildly bittersweet imo. I'm doubtful that this ending will mirror the bittersweet ending of the books.

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5 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I stick to the first sentence. In a concrete story (at least) the readers (us) need to understand what the quest is about. If we don't there is a problem with the script all together. 

Saving Middle Earth is a straight point.

Wanting to Go Home is a straight point. 

And its the writer through his characters and what his characters goal are that defines the quest, and the quest defines the victory and the loss. 

GOT is all over the place. By now we should be able to tell the Quest. But we don't.

We just see different characters wanting different things and betraying each other in an indefinite circle just like soap opera characters do. Not epic characters. There is no quest, just conflicted interests. Not a journey, just transportations from place to place, half of them, failing to deliver any meaningful story changes. 

I think Martin shouldn't refer to Tolkien. Tolkien told his story with consistency, with very clear narrative, with true heroic figures that had moral compass and perception. 

Honestly the plot in GOT is a mess / all the characters ruined, they end worst than who they were before as characters.

I think its more like a high budget soap opera: 

"The bad sister who got jealous of the beauty queen and the everlasting casanova who fucks and leaves to go back to his evil sister," and "Oh I did it for the love of my brother who tossed your brother from the window" and "you are my queen but I wont fuck you tonight" and LOL.

I wasn't expecting this to be an endless rumble over family drama with dragons and zombies at the background just to draw the attention. 

How do the say it in reddit: Subverted trashpectations.

At least I am happy that I never paid attention to all of these theories for the Night King, and Bran and Azor Ahai and whatever and saved my self some time. 

 

I agree that GoTs is a mess with no clear narrative goal - through I thought it was heading there, silly me. I did pay attention to all the theories.

I was certain the end would reveal something like the human goal (throne) was actually the main source of corruption and Jon's goal (defeating the Walkers) revealed it somehow. I thought that either they were going to defeat the walkers and save the throne but then realise they made Westeros a worse place in the process - bittersweet, or alternatively, have to sacrifice the throne somehow to get the walkers to recede, admitting that their primary focus had been wrong and that maintaining magic in Westeros (or something, with a new Pact) was more important.

The trouble is the first 4 seasons/3 books are really, really good - sure, they are a little soap opera but what isn't. Even in LotRs - Borhamir is corrupted, Denathor is a prick to his second born, Sam gets has lady at the end and so on. Epic stories need those human drama elements, love triangles, matters of honor, what have you to carry them forward emotionally, so I don't hate on GoTs for those elements. What I hate on it for is that it did not have a consistent magical universe under the hood that tied the world together and resolved it in a meaningful way. And everyone is blaming D&D now but eventually they will wake up and realise that those shortcomings are as much on GRRM.

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6 hours ago, LordImp said:

Isn't bittersweet subjective though?

Nope.

6 hours ago, LordImp said:

If it ends the way I think it does ( Dany dead , Jon king) then it's bittersweet imo. But for Dany fans it will just be bitter. 

That's a tragic ending.

It's like something out of Shakespeare.

To have a bittersweet ending, things must end on a high note...things must end hopefully.

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5 minutes ago, ummester said:

<snip> And everyone is blaming D&D now but eventually they will wake up and realise that those shortcomings are as much on GRRM.

Everything in his five books makes perfect sense and the show went off the rails as soon as it got on its own. So I very much doubt this.

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15 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

The conclusion? Either Martin lied, or this is not his ending.

My guess is that it shares some plot attributes with Martin's ending (or at least the ending he planned when he talked to the show-runners several years back), but it is different enough that it closes out with an entirely different "feel." One that is not "bittersweet."

I think there are obvious signs this is not the ending GRRM planned. Example A: The Night King. The character doesn't exist in the books and the WW are very different in the show. There's no way WW are like a hive that killing one Queen/King Bee destroys the whole enterprise. That's just the type of Hollywood convenience the showrunners rely on. 

I think GRRM gave them some plotlines that D&D either didn't understand or completely fudged. Remember the scene Dany tells Tyrion his knowledge is important (so go to the crypt) in like S8E03? Yes, Tyrion's knowledge is important, given that he's the last known person to have read Septon Barth's book about seasons in Planetos before the Winterfell library burns. But these things are not even mentioned on the show. 

And GRRM may have told them that Dany burns a city. She does end up lighting a "fire to death." My personal take is that the city she burns is Mereen, which is plagued, just like Dany. She probably has to burn the cities she saved to stop the disease from spreading, including killing the ill and the possibly ill. It would be something everyone else thinks is "mad." 

Also, I think some people may have taken GRRM too literally. He only said the ending might look like his ending. He admitted that he had't read the scripts when he said that. And I just read that the series finale won't be screened at his theater, supposedly because HBO didn't give the rights. 

Even when they had the books, D&D changed lots of things on the show. Like Dany's arc in season 2, where she burns and murders in Qarth out of vengeance, none of which happen in the books. Same for most other characters. 

I kind of feel like D&D deliberately want to piss off GRRM. Obviously there were frustration on both sides early on with GRRM complaining about them leaving certain things out, like Lady Stoneheart. We don't really know what happened, but I think these fights may have left some bad blood between the showrunners and the writer. D&D did get certain things right about the adaptation. GRRM would complain about them killing a dothraki bloodrider in season 1 who becomes Dany's nemesis later. D&D's response to these things were people who watch the show don't care. They are right, show fans don't care for all the nuances and subtleties that make the books great. 

But D&D did end up going wrong by betting everything on spectacle. Also, actual betting. Fans were placing serious bets on characters and events like the Cleganebowl that I think they just threw up their hands and gave up. 

So my point is, it's very unlikely this is the ending the books aim for. There are way too many things that are either missing or off on the show for it to be so. 

1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

VEEP, that recently ended on HBO, is a bittersweet ending in my opinion and it felt like a real possibility.

I'm so glad that someone else noticed that. The final season of Veep was surprisingly good and they wrapped things up so well. Character assassinations - 0. And it was a political satire that doesn't even need a good ending but the creators managed to do something amazing. Notice how it stuck to the usual awful politics the show highlights but also managed to give a silver lining to the whole thing? So neat. 

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35 minutes ago, ummester said:

I agree that GoTs is a mess with no clear narrative goal - through I thought it was heading there, silly me. I did pay attention to all the theories.

 

The trouble is the first 4 seasons/3 books are really, really good - sure, they are a little soap opera but what isn't. Even in LotRs - Borhamir is corrupted, Denathor is a prick to his second born, Sam gets has lady at the end and so on. Epic stories need those human drama elements, love triangles, matters of honor, what have you to carry them forward emotionally, so I don't hate on GoTs for those elements. What I hate on it for is that it did not have a consistent magical universe under the hood that tied the world together and resolved it in a meaningful way. And everyone is blaming D&D now but eventually they will wake up and realise that those shortcomings are as much on GRRM.

I believe the same because this is his end after all. 

As another poster said in another thread the show should have had cut off all the fantasy elements since it hadn't any way to make them work meaningfully for the story. 

Because a show needs to be consistent and honest with its audience: all the fan base who was here for the epic part, the journey, the WW, the prophecy, the quest as for example hobbits quest to save middle earth wouldn't feel confused and betrayed because they wouldn't have seen it in the first place.

It's not the audience's fault the show promises something that it can't deliver. 

This would have left GOT with a more honest storytelling: the different stories of people who fight to get the throne. Lovers and conspiracies, and all that bla..bla..bla...political drama? soap opera? whatever...

But no, it had to put everything in the mix to get viewers and readers from a genre (epic fantasy) where it's evident now, that the end is near, that it doesn't belong to. 

As for Martin I agree. I think it's DD mistake doing the show without pressing him to complete the story. They went in waters not even Martin himself knew how to get out. 

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36 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Even when they had the books, D&D changed lots of things on the show. Like Dany's arc in season 2, where she burns and murders in Qarth out of vengeance, none of which happen in the books. Same for most other characters. 

I kind of feel like D&D deliberately want to piss off GRRM. Obviously there were frustration on both sides early on with GRRM complaining about them leaving certain things out, like Lady Stoneheart. We don't really know what happened, but I think these fights may have left some bad blood between the showrunners and the writer. D&D did get certain things right about the adaptation. GRRM would complain about them killing a dothraki bloodrider in season 1 who becomes Dany's nemesis later. D&D's response to these things were people who watch the show don't care. They are right, show fans don't care for all the nuances and subtleties that make the books great. 

But D&D did end up going wrong by betting everything on spectacle. Also, actual betting. Fans were placing serious bets on characters and events like the Cleganebowl that I think they just threw up their hands and gave up. 

So my point is, it's very unlikely this is the ending the books aim for. There are way too many things that are either missing or off on the show for it to be so. 

I'm so glad that someone else noticed that. The final season of Veep was surprisingly good and they wrapped things up so well. Character assassinations - 0. And it was a political satire that doesn't even need a good ending but the creators managed to do something amazing. Notice how it stuck to the usual awful politics the show highlights but also managed to give a silver lining to the whole thing? So neat. 

Wait what? She doesn't burn and murder in Qarth out of vengeance.

Why would D&D deliberately want to piss off GRRM by jeopardizing their own career?

Apparently, GRRM was right. Daenerys had no real named enemies in Essos. If she had, it would have gone a long way. And obviously Lady Stoneheart is important: the stories of Brienne, Jaime and maybe Arya suffer from Lady Stoneheart's absence.

 

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1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

Examples are always helpful

Bittersweet 1- Jon sees Dany killed, and is asked to be king, but he realizes the 'game of thrones' has a catastrophic cost he cannot pay, he declines, and leaves to go North. 

Bittersweet 2 - Jon kills Dany, takes the throne, alone, grief-stricken, and becomes sullen, remote, and less than the man he was.

Have I got the right of it?

1) This is bittersweet, if Daenerys dies for a good cause, like saving someone important (Jon) or in order to push back a great evil (like the NK). This is actually what I thought we would end up with after watching S7, or at least something similar. Boy was I wrong...

2) This is full blown tragic. One protagonist is killed by the other protagonist, who after this is completely heartbroken and depressed, and will probably commit suicide in a non-distant future off-screen after the credits roll.

46 minutes ago, Aurane said:

It depends on your opinion on bittersweet. If it ends with Jon killing Dany, then it would be mildly bittersweet imo. I'm doubtful that this ending will mirror the bittersweet ending of the books.

You consider one of the heroes/protagonists of the story, killing the other hero/protagonist (who he also loves) because the other hero/protagonist for in-explanatory reasons got turned into a (the) villain with 3% left of the story a bittersweet ending?

I think most people would consider this tragic. It's like a really poorly done Shakespearean ending.

Imagine if Frodo would turn evil right at the end and Sam had to push him down into mount doom along with the ring.
That's not bittersweet, that's tragic, for both Sam, Frodo, and for the invested reader. 

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13 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:



Imagine if Frodo would turn evil right at the end and Sam had to push him down into mount doom along with the ring.
That's not bittersweet, that's tragic, for both Sam, Frodo, and for the invested reader. 

Imagine if Frodo would turn evil right at the end and Sam had to push him down into mount doom along with the ring. And just before that Frodo had already burned half the middle earth, ending worst threat than Saouron. 

After his death a council is summoned where Sarouman tells Galdaf he was right all along for Frodo and Galdaf should have never trusted him (?) :bang:  :shocked: 

That's not even tragic, that's twisted, if not a pure comedy of itself. 

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3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Wait what? She doesn't burn and murder in Qarth out of vengeance.

No. In the show, her khalasar is killed and her dragons are stolen. This is what leads her to the House of the Undying, where Pyat Pree is supposedly a nefarious sorcerer. Here Dany orders her chained dragons to burn Pree. Then later, it turns out Xaro and Doreah has plotted against her and she orders them locked into Xaro's own vault. None of these things happen in the books. 

In the books, Doreah dies in the Red Waste, and Dany stops her khalasar to tend to Doreah so she can die with dignity. Then at Qarth, which is completely different in the show, Xaro helps her (to get himself a dragon, but he doesn't betray her or anything). She kills no one really. Pyat Pree is just warlock and not one of the Undying. The Undying, after giving Dany true knowledge, tries to eat her alive. At that point Drogon attacks the evil blue heart that keeps them alive, tears it and burns it (his first fire) to save Dany. The other two dragons aren't there. Then they run to safety and the House implodes. When Dany leaves Qarth (to go to Illyrio), no one is dead. The Undying in the books are these weird undead things, not people. 

9 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why would D&D deliberately want to piss off GRRM by jeopardizing their own career?

It's just my opinion. As I said, the bad blood between them because of infighting. GRRM hasn't been involved with the show lately and the D&D aren't involved in the spinoffs. Also, D&D are definitely not jeopardizing their careers. It's the opposite, they are at a career high. They got signed on by Disney to do a new Star Wars trilogy. And they had pitched ideas to HBO for at least one other show. The final season is controversial, but ratings wise it's as successful as ever. Someone on Reddit said that Benioff was the one who wrote Wolverine that literally gagged Deadpool. That fact that he managed to land a major HBO deal after that disaster shows that these dudes are not failing despite ruining fandoms. 

13 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Apparently, GRRM was right. Daenerys had no real named enemies in Essos. If she had, it would have gone a long way. And obviously Lady Stoneheart is important: the stories of Brienne, Jaime and maybe Arya suffer from Lady Stoneheart's absence

Well the slavers were her enemies. And after a Sorrowful Man comes after her, she does have some real enemies. GRRM certainly has big plans for Lady Stoneheart. I think her character was mixed in with Sansa in the show. 

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17 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

1) This is bittersweet, if Daenerys dies for a good cause, like saving someone important (Jon) or in order to push back a great evil (like the NK). This is actually what I thought we would end up with after watching S7, or at least something similar. Boy was I wrong...

2) This is full blown tragic. One protagonist is killed by the other protagonist, who after this is completely heartbroken and depressed, and will probably commit suicide in a non-distant future off-screen after the credits roll.

Both of these statements are only true if Dany was a protagonist.

Thinking back to the very first episode, it now seems kind of obvious she never was. Jon and Dany were shown as the two characters on heroes/villains journeys. They each had their paragon/mentor who dies later in the first season. For Jon it was Ned, for Dany it was Viserys. Dany had an evil mentor from the start - from the very first episode. It seems kind of obvious in hindsight she was always the antagonist - just deliberately hidden from direct view - a villain is a hero of the other side (Essos was on the other side of Westeros, after all).

Also, you miss the point with bittersweet 2. The protagonist being heartbroken shows the greater ideal because the protagonists goal was wrong. Failing to be satisfied by an impure or flawed goal is a form of bittersweet storytelling. Someone wants to be rich and then is sad sitting on all their money at the end, wants vengeance and realizes it does not fulfill them, is consumed by loving someone who does not love them back and when they finally marry them it breaks their heart - that is all bittersweet, rather than tragic, because it adjusts the expectations of the goal - it makes the audience question the goal. Tragic is failure whilst still believing in the goal.

38 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

As for Martin I agree. I think it's DD mistake doing the show without pressing him to complete the story. They went in waters not even Martin himself knew how to get out

Yep, exactly, he gardened too much. I am now thinking that he never even had any idea what to do with the Others/White Walkers - that he just thought, well, I know there are dragons at the end of this book, so I'll wack some cold guys at the start so it feels all ice and fire.

1 hour ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Everything in his five books makes perfect sense and the show went off the rails as soon as it got on its own. So I very much doubt this.

Considering none of the magical subplots have been resolved it is impossible to say they make perfect sense or will be consistent at this stage. If he releases the next two books and the magic is consistent and comes together, I'll eat my words - I'd actually be happy to be wrong and get some decent narrative closure on this. But I am pretty sure I'm not - I'm pretty sure GRRM cannot finish what he started.

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3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

1) This is bittersweet, if Daenerys dies for a good cause, like saving someone important (Jon) or in order to push back a great evil (like the NK). This is actually what I thought we would end up with after watching S7, or at least something similar. Boy was I wrong...

2) This is full blown tragic. One protagonist is killed by the other protagonist, who after this is completely heartbroken and depressed, and will probably commit suicide in a non-distant future off-screen after the credits roll.

You consider one of the heroes/protagonists of the story, killing the other hero/protagonist (who he also loves) because the other hero/protagonist for in-explanatory reasons got turned into a (the) villain with 3% left of the story a bittersweet ending?

I think most people would consider this tragic. It's like a really poorly done Shakespearean ending.

Imagine if Frodo would turn evil right at the end and Sam had to push him down into mount doom along with the ring.
That's not bittersweet, that's tragic, for both Sam, Frodo, and for the invested reader. 

Frodo DID turn evil at the end.  He took the ring for himself.  Gollum attacked him and bit off his ring finger, taking the ring for himself, but in the process fell off the cliff.  

Golleum had the bittersweet ending, he saved the world but got no credit, abit accidently only because he couldnt resist the ring. 

The 4 hobbits returning home heros ready to relax and fire up the pipeweed only to find saurmuan had beat them back, destroyed most of the village, and enslaved the entire population was bittersweet.

The 12 dwarfs that set off for lonely mountain to regain thier home finally got it at the cost of thier leader and half thier company and causing a huge war plus Smaugs desolation of Laketown was bittersweet.

In GoT I'm not sure how to salvage a bittersweet ending.  Dany getting killed by Jon or Tyrion or Arya or whoever is definitly not bittersweet, thats just flat out tragic.  But probably the way the show is headed. 

Dany taking power only to finally realize at what cost it came and then giving it up to a Council of 7, each kingdom being left semi independant with a delegate sent to kings landing to rule togther as each of the 7 having an equal vote might work.  Or just having Drogon melt the throne and making each kingdom totally independant.  Maybe then she flies back to boytoy Daario and settles in Mereen or something.  

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3 minutes ago, ummester said:

Also, you miss the point with bittersweet 2. The protagonist being heartbroken shows the greater ideal because the protagonists goal was wrong. Failing to be satisfied by an impure goal is a form of bittersweet storytelling. Someone wants to be rich and then is sad sitting on all their money at the end, wants vengeance and realizes it does not fulfill them, is consumed by loving someone who does not love them bavk and it breaks their heart - that is all bittersweet, rather than tragic, because it adjusts the expectations of the goal - it makes the audience question the goal. Tragic is failure whilst still believing in the goal.

That's not bittersweet, that's just run-of-the-mill moralizing. 

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1 minute ago, ummester said:

Both of these statements are only true if Dany was a protagonist.

Daenerys was portrayed as a heroine and protagonist for 71 out of 73 episodes. Not a perfect, flawless protagonist, but a protagonist all the same. She did questionable things for mostly good reason, and ever for a bad reason. 
 

Ponder this: If she never went psycho in the latest episode, and instead contemplated her victory by ultimately coming to the conclusion that Jon is more worthy of the throne than she is and then proceeded to simply leave, then all the recent talk about "bUt ThE sIgNs WhErE tHeR aLl AlOnG" would vanish in an instant. No one would question that she was a protagonist - but ultimately her journey to this point would've been exactly the same. 

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Just now, ummester said:

<snip>

Considering none of the magical subplots have been resolved it is impossible to say they make perfect sense or will be consistent at this stage. If he releases the next two books and the magic is consistent and comes together, I'll eat my words - U'd actually be happy to be wrong and get some decent narrative closure on this. But I am pretty sure I'm not - I'm pretty sure GRRM cannot finish what he started.

Well of course the plots haven't been resolved, but what has happened in the books so far that doesn't make sense?

You seem to be predicting that Martin is not going to be able to pull it together - maybe yes, maybe no, but that's just a prediction, and perhaps you could consider that Martin is more imaginative and/or has put more time into this than you.

At any rate, I'm not making any prediction, I'm talking about what is already written. It all makes sense. 

You didn't have to make predictions in Seasons 5 and 6 of the show to see it going off the rails badly. Lots of stuff happened that just immediately didn't make sense, and that began as soon as the show-writers started going with new, non-Martin material. And the further away they got from the written predicate, the more nonsensical everything became.

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1 minute ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

That's not bittersweet, that's just run-of-the-mill moralizing. 

It's bitter sweet if it is told in a way that allows the audience to learn from the characters failure. It may be moralizing when I write it in a single sentence but not when it is part of a narrative that delivers it as a point, like the examples.

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1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

No one would question that she was a protagonist

No, I don't believe that - many had been discussing on this very forum, for years, that she was set up as a devil in disguise. Of course there were theories about everyone turning bad and having secret identities - but evil Dany was fairly mainstream.

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3 minutes ago, Bradam said:

Frodo DID turn evil at the end.  He took the ring for himself.  Gollum attacked him and bit off his ring finger, taking the ring for himself, but in the process fell off the cliff.  

Golleum had the bittersweet ending, he saved the world but got no credit, abit accidently only because he couldnt resist the ring. 

That's my point.
Frodo went evil, but ultimately managed to free himself of the burden of the ring (thanks to Gollum) and survived the ordeal.
Frodo did't go evil and die, and Sam was never forced to kill him or outright die with him, which is where GoT is currently heading.

Gollum was an antagonist from the get go and him having a bittersweet was fitting. 

3 minutes ago, Bradam said:

The 4 hobbits returning home heros ready to relax and fire up the pipeweed only to find saurmuan had beat them back, destroyed most of the village, and enslaved the entire population was bittersweet.

The 12 dwarfs that set off for lonely mountain to regain thier home finally got it at the cost of thier leader and half thier company and causing a huge war plus Smaugs desolation of Laketown was bittersweet.

In GoT I'm not sure how to salvage a bittersweet ending.  Dany getting killed by Jon or Tyrion or Arya or whoever is definitly not bittersweet, thats just flat out tragic.  But probably the way the show is headed. 

Dany taking power only to finally realize at what cost it came and then giving it up to a Council of 7, each kingdom being left semi independant with a delegate sent to kings landing to rule togther as each of the 7 having an equal vote might work.  Or just having Drogon melt the throne and making each kingdom totally independant.  Maybe then she flies back to boytoy Daario and settles in Mereen or something.  

Agreed. The Scouring of the Shire and the general narrative of Bilbo is ultimately bittersweet.
(Thorin becoming evil and paranoid near the end is very similar to Daenerys becoming evil and paranoid near the end, but with some major differences: Thorin managed to become good again before ultimately dying, and he never...you know...committed mass-murder.)

I can't see any possible way for GoT to come remotely close to this however, given the current circumstances, unless GRRM and D&D's definition of bittersweet is a kin to "well not everone died..."

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21 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

You seem to be predicting that Martin is not going to be able to pull it together - maybe yes, maybe no, but that's just a prediction, and perhaps you could consider that Martin is more imaginative and/or has put more time into this than you.

Yes, that is exactly what I am predicting. And he may be more imaginative than me and he definately has more time to write and has put more time into ASoIaF then me - and. due to all of those things, he should have been able to pull it together by now.

But like I said, I hope I am wrong. I hope he can bring it together coz I would like to know how the Others and seasons and everything ticks in Westeros. I'd like to know how the Pact works and what the Last Hero did and what Varys saw in the flames (though I guess now it was just Drogons head and the word Dracarys)

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10 minutes ago, Bradam said:

Golleum had the bittersweet ending, he saved the world but got no credit, abit accidently only because he couldnt resist the ring. 

I think this is the perfect example of the ending that a character deserves, rather than a bittersweet one. Gollum in the end gets exactly what he has craved all this time, the ring, but he dies. There's a word for this I can't remember right now. I don't think that you can say he saves the world, the world gets saved by chance, considering he was just being very selfish in that moment as he has been all his life. 

I thought the end of Harry Potter was kind of bittersweet, considering all the people who die and all who do get to live. And the story of Darth Vader has a beautiful, bittersweet, and a well deserved ending.  Also, the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna within ASOIAF is a great example of bittersweet. They end up together, but have to die for it. But all of it was not in vain as the testament to their love, Jon, survives. 

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