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This ending is nothing but Bitter

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I was really down about the ending, when I first read it. It sounded pretty awful, especially in sparse bullet-point form. But I think Sansa will be great in the North (and it sounds like the North is getting its independence). Jon will enjoy being back at Castle Black and among his old friends north of the wall. If he is rebuilding the NW, it will be much different thing to the one he joined - the enmity between the Watch and the Freefolk will be gone, relations will be much improved etc, etc. Moreover, Jon can go south and visit his sister in Winterfell whenever the fancy takes him. Although there's no time to show Sansa's future, she will presumably land a good match and bear the next generation of Starks. 

Beyond the Starks, I have no idea who will be doing what. I'll have to wait and see, in that regard. But for the Starks at least, it all seems okay-ish.

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3 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

This is silly. Daenery's "break the wheel" bit has always been about doing so for the good of the common people. Slaughtering common people by the hundreds of thousands in order to save them from the crushing tyranny of nobility makes no sense. If Daenerys wants to ensure no noble houses will rise against her the way to do that is by exterminating the noble houses that fight against her. Maybe starting with that one called Lannister? 

Instead she ignores the Red Keep (giving Cersei time to escape if not for a fortuitous cave-in) in favor of burning random streets of King's Landing. 


An article recently likened the Burning of KL to the Nuking of Nagasaki. It was an excessive use of force to send a message to Soviet Union. A message in GoT context that would ripple and echo across space and time, that Dany and the new order has arrived, and the old order is done. 

This is not about Cersei or the Red Keep, Dany wants the people of Westeros to see her unquestionably as their ruler. The Iron Throne is just a symbol for power, and the burning of KL is a demonstration of that power. 

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Posted (edited)
Just now, The One Who Kneels said:

Slaughtering common people by the hundreds of thousands in order to save them from the crushing tyranny of nobility makes no sense.

Sounds like Japan 1945 indeed. The japs were certifiably setting up the surrender (which the americans knew), but good old Harry couldn´t miss the chance to show the soviets and test 'the fire'. Exactly as 'perfidious' mad Dany did.

And let´s not begin with the Philippines Genocide (also commited by the 'good' americans) and other really unjustifiable actions in the past. I am not defending the killings but Dany had as many reasons for it as any real 'massacre' happening in the news. Because war doesn´t make a lot of sense usually, does it?

Edited by Empress Sansa

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On 5/17/2019 at 5:50 PM, MinscS2 said:

Haven't read the books (was considering to before S8 aired...F that), but given that Anakins decent from Good Jedi into darkness and Darth Vader was better paced, nuanced and written (over the course of less than two full movies) than Daenerys decent from Beloved Mhysa, protector of the downtrodden, into Psychopathic killer who kills the downtrodden for shits and giggles, then I'm sure that books-characters are better seeded indeed.

Once the bad taste of the show version fades you should give the books a try. You wont regret it

 

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39 minutes ago, Daemos said:


An article recently likened the Burning of KL to the Nuking of Nagasaki. It was an excessive use of force to send a message to Soviet Union. A message in GoT context that would ripple and echo across space and time, that Dany and the new order has arrived, and the old order is done. 

This is not about Cersei or the Red Keep, Dany wants the people of Westeros to see her unquestionably as their ruler. The Iron Throne is just a symbol for power, and the burning of KL is a demonstration of that power. 

You're missing the point. If Truman and Hirohito had been fighting a civil war over the throne of Japan with Truman's avowed goal being "breaking the wheel" that was crushing the Japanese common people him suddenly incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians after he had won said war to ensure the nobles don't rise up against him later would make very little sense unless Truman had suddenly lost his mind. 

25 minutes ago, Empress Sansa said:

Sounds like Japan 1945 indeed. The japs were certifiably setting up the surrender (which the americans knew), but good old Harry couldn´t miss the chance to show the soviets and test 'the fire'. Exactly as 'perfidious' mad Dany did.

I don't want to derail this but anyone who believes that the USA just dropped the bomb on Nagasaki to test it out and scare the Soviets is profoundly ignorant of what was actually happening with the Japanese government. There was no consensus within the Japanese government to surrender after Hiroshima. Elements of the Japanese government had been "setting up the surrender" since 1944. They couldn't surrender in 1944 for the same reason they couldn't surrender after Hiroshima (the military still didn't agree). It took days of bitter debate and Imperial intervention to break the cabinet deadlock after Nagasaki and the Soviet invasion of Manchuria and there was still a botched military coup to try and prevent the surrender. 

Daenerys had nothing more to demonstrate. One dragon had incinerated the Iron Fleet, the Golden Company and the fortifications of King's Landing. Her power was clear. Her power could've been made even more clear by leveling the Red Keep and wiping out the Lannisters root and stem. Instead she just suddenly turned against the common people she spent the last seven seasons identifying with and trying to help. 

16 minutes ago, Empress Sansa said:

Did May Lai made sense? Would you call it silly if someone writes similar facts as fiction?

That's completely different from a demonstration of power. Of course atrocities can happen. The only way to make sense of Daenerys in King's Landing is to say she snapped somehow and started committing atrocities. I don't think that was set up at all but that's the only way to explain her actions not as a rational demonstration of power to deter future rebellions by nobles. 

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5 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

You're missing the point. If Truman and Hirohito had been fighting a civil war over the throne of Japan with Truman's avowed goal being "breaking the wheel" that was crushing the Japanese common people him suddenly incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians after he had won said war to ensure the nobles don't rise up against him later would make very little sense unless Truman had suddenly lost his mind. 

GoT is not a civil war, and Dany isn't some sort of rebel. She's a conqueror from a foreign land with the biggest living army the world has known, and DRAGONS. She knocks on your door and demands surrender. You don't fuck with that.

Dany won the battle when the bells rang yes, but she ended the war and began her reign when she when she leveled the Red Keep and the city.

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27 minutes ago, Daemos said:

GoT is not a civil war, and Dany isn't some sort of rebel. She's a conqueror from a foreign land with the biggest living army the world has known, and DRAGONS. She knocks on your door and demands surrender. You don't fuck with that.

Dany won the battle when the bells rang yes, but she ended the war and began her reign when she when she leveled the Red Keep and the city.

The conflict between Daenerys and Cersei for control of the Iron Throne is absolutely a civil war. 

And they didn't fuck with that. They surrendered. Equally as important the common people had nothing to do with Cersei's refusal to surrender earlier. If she had incinerated Cersei and the Red Keep it would've made a lot more sense. Instead she started wasting the entire city and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of the people she previously identified with. 

What is the logic here? 

"Alright fuck Daenerys let's go take her out she only incinerated the Iron Fleet, the entire Golden Company and broke King's Landing in about a half hour." 

"She also incinerated hundreds of thousands of common people after they had surrendered." 

"Oh fuck cancel the rebellion then. I was totally okay with fighting her until I heard about that."

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On 5/17/2019 at 11:21 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

I do. He secretly starts warging Hodor even though he knows it's wrong and that it's causing massive amounts of distress to Hodor.

This.

I have seriously strong doubts that Daenerys ends the series as a pathologically evil antagonist that enjoys the sound of panicked screams and the sight of wholesale destruction and thus marches people into ovens.

The original outline has Dany fleeing into the wilderness, taming dragons, taking control of the Dothraki, mercilessly destroying her competition in Westeros, struggling to govern Westeros after conquering it and then heroically taking the Others head-on before maybe dying, maybe abdicating for Jon Snow.

The skeleton of that all looks like it will remains the same but the muscles, the joints, the connective tissue, the brains and the heart of that has changed. But the skeletal structure is the skeletal structure.

Original outline from GRRM has this as the story??

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3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Its a bad story because they’ve warped Dany into another Ygritte for Jon to kill and be all emo about. 

That he has to do it with Jorahs sword adds insult to injury.

Clearly GRRM only intends a bittersweet ending for the Stark clan and to condemn Dany as a monster. This is a horrible resolution to her story. With Ned and Rob you didn’t have an outright betrayal of the character that renders everything they’ve struggled for and sacrificed meaningless because, ultimately, the Stark children were able to carry the torch to victory. Dany does not have that. Her end is to be an ignominious failure and for that to be trumpeted at anyone who rooted for her. 

 

This. Agree wholeheartedly. 

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4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yeah basically

 

This makes so much more sense to me. Why didn’t we get this ending on the show?? Because it “subverts expectations so much more to make her the ultimate Big bad?

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8 minutes ago, Petitephlox said:

This makes so much more sense to me. Why didn’t we get this ending on the show?? Because it “subverts expectations so much more to make her the ultimate Big bad?

GRRM said that a lot of the characters are going to very dark, very cold, very ugly places in The Winds of Winter

Jaime and Davos are literally going to dark places, Theon is teetering on the edge of insanity, Bran is going to get up close and personal with the Others and Cersei is in a very bad predicament that is likely to get a lot worse.

Sansa is likely going to be directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of either Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir so that she can go back home with the armies of the Vale.

Jon is going to be almost a completely different person post-resurrection: meaner, colder, and probably smarter.

And Daenerys is already done being diplomatic...and so she will almost definitely will be burning and sacking cities that defy her anti-slavery agenda. Will she torch cities that try to surrender without completely honoring her demands in regards to slaves? Probably. Even so, it's happening all throughout in The Winds of Winter not in the last pages of A Dream of Spring!!!

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15 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

GRRM said that a lot of the characters are going to very dark, very cold, very ugly places in The Winds of Winter

Jaime and Davos are literally going to dark places, Theon is teetering on the edge of insanity, Bran is going to get up close and personal with the Others and Cersei is in a very bad predicament that is likely to get a lot worse.

Sansa is likely going to be directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of either Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir so that she can go back home with the armies of the Vale.

Jon is going to be almost a completely different person post-resurrection: meaner, colder, and probably smarter.

And Daenerys is already done being diplomatic...and so she will almost definitely will be burning and sacking cities that defy her anti-slavery agenda. Will she torch cities that try to surrender without completely honoring her demands in regards to slaves? Probably. Even so, it's happening all throughout in The Winds of Winter not in the last pages of A Dream of Spring!!! 

Just to add that it makes sense to have characters go dark on "winds of winter" and then have them becoming better in "A dream of Spring". We just have to look at the titles… And then the characters sufering the consequences of their actions in winds can be the bitter in the bittersweet ending… Instead of ending everything in tragedy where everyone is just awful...

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Just now, The One Who Kneels said:

Equally as important the common people had nothing to do with Cersei's refusal to surrender earlier. If she had incinerated Cersei and the Red Keep it would've made a lot more sense.

The common people in Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki probably had nothing to do with the right wing in command delaying the Japanese surrender. If the Yanks had incinerated the Emperor first it would´ve made a lot more sense!

Out for a beer.

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Just now, Empress Sansa said:

The common people in Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki probably had nothing to do with the right wing in command delaying the Japanese surrender. If the Yanks had incinerated the Emperor first it would´ve made a lot more sense!

Out for a beer.

Did they know where he was?

And in order to compare the situation the japanese would need to surrender and only after that the americans drop the bomb… 

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1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yeah basically

 

Did GRRM give this outline to D&D and they just chose to change it up?

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1 minute ago, Petitephlox said:

Did GRRM give this outline to D&D and they just chose to change it up?

I recommend asking someone who actually knows the answers to both those questions. Asking people who don't know is not going to be constructive.

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Ok, let me rephrase. Jabar of House Titan, could you tell me more about this outline? I didn’t know there was one out there that had spelled out the plot (other than the secrets given to D&D). I’m not privy to a lot of insider info in the world of GoT, though- just joined this forum, so maybe this is common knowledge!

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On 5/17/2019 at 8:50 AM, MinscS2 said:

Haven't read the books (was considering to before S8 aired...F that), but given that Anakins decent from Good Jedi into darkness and Darth Vader was better paced, nuanced and written (over the course of less than two full movies) than Daenerys decent from Beloved Mhysa, protector of the downtrodden, into Psychopathic killer who kills the downtrodden for shits and giggles, then I'm sure that books-characters are better seeded indeed.

If GRRM ends up finishing the books, I recommend reading them. If he never does, don't bother.

 

&& omg I was wondering why people kept comparing her to Anakin, and it is so sad/funny how the Star Wars prequels are considered to be one of the most hated parts of a story in cinematic history, and GoT somehow gets it worse than they did. 

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