The real character assassination is that of Tyrion

[Beardy the Wildling]

15 hours ago, Kajjo said:

It's true that Tyrions sucks in the last seasons. He lost it, gave a lot of wrong advice and was not up to his former self.

But is this a character arc destruction or does it show that even he can be out-witted?

Mostly I agree with you that I wish they hadn't shown him like that, but with more wit and better people not listening to him than he being wrong.

The way they should have shown Tyrion being outwitted is by having people be even smarter than him, not dumbing him down to farcical levels of stupidity. The problem is, D&D are actually too dumb to write smart characters. Or witty characters, for that matter.

Hence most of his jokes with Varys amount to 'nO cOcK lMaO'.

[Rose of Red Lake]

I despise book Tyrion so this might color my reaction a bit, but I'm confused. Folks want Tyrion to be ruthless and smart to help Dany attack Westeros? While one of his crowning achievements was defending the city? This does not compute. He's in the offensive position, his road is going to be harder and he's always going to be more pragmatic than Dany's desire to go in guns blazing.

I also think it's partially Dany's fault that the writing for Tyrion sucks. All the men who interact with her get sucked up into her cult and they trail her like ducklings. It's ridiculous. Every man falls in love with her, pursues her, advises her? Like at some point, I wouldn't blame D&D, I would blame GRRM for using the trope of men falling over themselves to worship the hot lady and win her approval. What a dumb "challenge."

I liked Tyrion when he was skeptical of Dany before he even met her, and compared her to Maegor the Cruel, Aegon the Unworthy, and Baelor the Befuddled. Really the best way to salvage him is to have him join up with Dany because he's bored, has nothing else to do, and wants revenge. Not because he's in *awe*

 

[Alex200]

On 5/17/2019 at 6:51 AM, LanMandragoran said:

Dany's quick character turnaround is the talk of Moles Town, but are we forgetting Tyrion? The once quick witted smart ass halfman who spent season two playing the small council like a fiddle and saved Kings Landing with more military acumen than any other on the show (they don't really seem to have educated Generals, but that's another debate) now suddenly seems incapable of even planning his next meal. He makes an incongruous amount of mistakes and does not seem to serve any useful role except for being Dany's physical moral compass. Jorah's statement that Tyrion's mind is admirable and that he learns from his mistakes could not be further from the truth - Jorah would have been a much better hand. Tyrion's character has been butchered. My once favorite character decimated. 

Yup.. completely agree. Tyrion was my favourite but they ruined to the point of almost being unlikeable for me. The moral preaching felt anachronistic for the era they live in especially considering there was a time where he openly wanted to poison all of KL for how they treated him during his trial. 

If anything you could make a real case for Tyrion to be sabotaging Dany in favour of his family. 

[Gendelsdottir]

On 6/11/2019 at 12:52 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I also think it's partially Dany's fault that the writing for Tyrion sucks.

Other authors wish they could create characters with this degree of autonomy & agency.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 6/11/2019 at 11:09 PM, Gendelsdottir said:

Other authors wish they could create characters with this degree of autonomy & agency.

If its at the expense of other characters, it sucks. She just becomes a female power fantasy and male fuck fantasy. Its not that deep. Watching your fav join the gaggle of khaleesi yes-men is infuriating.

[Lord Varys]

On 6/13/2019 at 9:32 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

If its at the expense of other characters, it sucks. She just becomes a female power fantasy and male fuck fantasy. Its not that deep. Watching your fav join the gaggle of khaleesi yes-men is infuriating.

Well, Daenerys is supposed to be the fairest woman in the world. And considering she is actually still just a little girl all she has to master men in a world as patriarchal as this is her looks and her dragons (and the superstitions that come with her being the Mother of Dragons, etc.). Any husband or advisor should actually have little to no difficulty mastering her (Hizdahr and Daario both nearly mastered her, and that was in an environment where she was still surrounded who are accustomed to follow her.

But Tyrion is basically a horny cock on two legs. He does not give a damn about the personality of women, he just looks for a nice piece of meat to fuck. That was his modus operandi since Tysha and it is the defining characteristic in his relationship with Shae (talking of the books, of course).

He has essentially no self-worth and is routinely consumed by petty jealousy. He will fall in love with Daenerys, and he will rage as he has never raged before when she falls in love with Jon, is unable to love him back the way he loves her, shows more favor to other men around her at council, etc.

The idea that Tyrion is going to end up 'a good guy' in the books if we were to get some self-destructive plot in the end is insane, just as there is no chance that his dear siblings - both Jaime and Cersei - will forgive him for Tywin and Joffrey (assuming they never learn who actually killed him) or for joining Daenerys.

You have to keep in mind that while Tyrion was crucial in defending KL against Stannis, he publicly went on a rant where he cursed and condemned the court and the Kingslanders all (during his trial). He enjoys hurting people and scaring people with his ugly leer.

Tyrion tried to be an asset to his family, he tried to be 'their dwarf'. But neither Cersei nor his father ever wanted him - and even Jaime was complicit in the worst betrayal imaginable. The idea that Tyrion of all people would try to stop Daenerys from burning KL down if this was necessary for some reason is pretty much insane.

Instead the Tyrion we know from the book would likely goad her on, insisting that his dragon - assuming he ever becomes a dragonrider - target the city first.

And if it turns out that Tyrion is actually going to be Aerys II's son - I'm pretty sure now that this is the change George told us he made, a crucial change he did not tell the show runners before during their conference - then even that will stand between him and Jaime. Each of them killed the other brother's father. And somehow I don't think they will just agree that they are even now.

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Daenerys is supposed to be the fairest woman in the world. And considering she is actually still just a little girl all she has to master men in a world as patriarchal as this is her looks and her dragons (and the superstitions that come with her being the Mother of Dragons, etc.). Any husband or advisor should actually have little to no difficulty mastering her (Hizdahr and Daario both nearly mastered her, and that was in an environment where she was still surrounded who are accustomed to follow her.

But Tyrion is basically a horny cock on two legs. He does not give a damn about the personality of women, he just looks for a nice piece of meat to fuck. That was his modus operandi since Tysha and it is the defining characteristic in his relationship with Shae (talking of the books, of course).

He has essentially no self-worth and is routinely consumed by petty jealousy. He will fall in love with Daenerys, and he will rage as he has never raged before when she falls in love with Jon, is unable to love him back the way he loves her, shows more favor to other men around her at council, etc.

The idea that Tyrion is going to end up 'a good guy' in the books if we were to get some self-destructive plot in the end is insane, just as there is no chance that his dear siblings - both Jaime and Cersei - will forgive him for Tywin and Joffrey (assuming they never learn who actually killed him) or for joining Daenerys.

You have to keep in mind that while Tyrion was crucial in defending KL against Stannis, he publicly went on a rant where he cursed and condemned the court and the Kingslanders all (during his trial). He enjoys hurting people and scaring people with his ugly leer.

Tyrion tried to be an asset to his family, he tried to be 'their dwarf'. But neither Cersei nor his father ever wanted him - and even Jaime was complicit in the worst betrayal imaginable. The idea that Tyrion of all people would try to stop Daenerys from burning KL down if this was necessary for some reason is pretty much insane.

Instead the Tyrion we know from the book would likely goad her on, insisting that his dragon - assuming he ever becomes a dragonrider - target the city first.

And if it turns out that Tyrion is actually going to be Aerys II's son - I'm pretty sure now that this is the change George told us he made, a crucial change he did not tell the show runners before during their conference - then even that will stand between him and Jaime. Each of them killed the other brother's father. And somehow I don't think they will just agree that they are even now.

Tyrion of the books would be egging Dany on to bring fire and blood to her enemies, in the same way he encourages Young Griff to attack Westeros.

He would be constantly telling Dany that "It's better to be feared than to be loved" "mercy is cowardice" etc.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion of the books would be egging Dany on to bring fire and blood to her enemies, in the same way he encourages Young Griff to attack Westeros.

He would be constantly telling Dany that "It's better to be feared than to be loved" "mercy is cowardice" etc.

Perhaps, although I expect him to differentiate between potential pawns to be spared/shown mercy and enemies that have to be destroyed. He would also try to convince Dany to look for allies in Westeros instead of viewing them all as enemies. But Dany is smart enough to that herself.

I'm very sure Tyrion's advice to Aegon is coming back to bite him in the ass - because Aegon will sit the throne when Tyrion and Dany arrive, and then he will have no use for either of them. Which is not going to make Tyrion happy.

And if he turns out to be Aerys II's son then his fundamental motivation could also change. As son of a king - bastard or not - he could covet the Iron Throne itself, desiring to either sit on it as king, or to control it from behind. After he broke with the Lannisters in ASoS he only seemed to be after destroying them and, perhaps, Casterly Rock, but being a Targaryen (bastard) and a dragonrider is going to give him a realistic shot at the ultimate price, and that's clearly going to shape his decision-making process.

He could even develop delusions of grandeur himself, thinking he was not only better/more competent/better suited than Daenerys but also better than Aegon, Jon Snow, whoever else comes forth to lay claim to the Iron Throne.