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LanMandragoran

The real character assassination is that of Tyrion

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Dany's quick character turnaround is the talk of Moles Town, but are we forgetting Tyrion? The once quick witted smart ass halfman who spent season two playing the small council like a fiddle and saved Kings Landing with more military acumen than any other on the show (they don't really seem to have educated Generals, but that's another debate) now suddenly seems incapable of even planning his next meal. He makes an incongruous amount of mistakes and does not seem to serve any useful role except for being Dany's physical moral compass. Jorah's statement that Tyrion's mind is admirable and that he learns from his mistakes could not be further from the truth - Jorah would have been a much better hand. Tyrion's character has been butchered. My once favorite character decimated. 

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Yeah, that's been happening since season 5.

Varys as well.

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1 hour ago, Darryk said:

Yeah, that's been happening since season 5.

Varys as well.

Yes, agreed, Varys too. He seems to be a little bit all over the place. His moral decisions are entirely subjective and often seem to only think one or two steps ahead. Sometimes he's fighting hard for the "realm" and its people (e.g. by plotting against Dany), but other times he's fighting for the status quo (e.g. by advising Ned to acknowledge Joffrey as the true king to avoid war). Dont remember if he plotted against the Mad King, but from what I remember he pretty much payed along (Jamie was one of few who actually did something). And supporting Jon who (however much I like his book character) seems entirely inept at thinking strategically does not seem like a wise choice either. The character Varys knows the best, the one who would probably be the best ruler, is Tyrion. But he doesn't seem to promote him for the IT/or de facto rule at any point. If anything he should have plotted to have Jeoffrey and Cersei killed so Tyrion could rule until good Tommen became of age.

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Posted (edited)

When tyrion was hand for his own family, Tyrion had no major hidden agendas nor conflicts of interest and at the time was supporting his family, that in which I dont think he could ever do a better job. His heart was completely in it. Ever since arriving on westeros it was all about protecting cercei and jaime. Cercei was always a dead woman walking and i wish he got that through his thick skull. How many allies and people had to die in order for him to protect his sister. He had too many conflicts to ever be hand of the queen.

 

Tyrion should follow his own words because many times he’s made mistakes out of hope. “Just because you want to believe something is true doesnt make it so”.

Edited by Jon and Dany Targaryen

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None character in season 8 has any resemblance with the characters George has written. And for most of the characters that was the case even before that.

Varys is a very good example. The guy was pretty much his true self - until the end of season 4, basically.

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Part of the issue is Tyrion just doesn't work with Dany. Dany is too controlling and made her hand look like a fool. Only secondary characters who won't challenge her fit with Dany. The best moments of Tyrion will always be with Tywin. 

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On 5/17/2019 at 11:16 PM, Jon and Dany Targaryen said:

When tyrion was hand for his own family, Tyrion had no major hidden agendas nor conflicts of interest and at the time was supporting his family, that in which I dont think he could ever do a better job. His heart was completely in it. Ever since arriving on westeros it was all about protecting cercei and jaime. Cercei was always a dead woman walking and i wish he got that through his thick skull. How many allies and people had to die in order for him to protect his sister. He had too many conflicts to ever be hand of the queen.

 

Tyrion should follow his own words because many times he’s made mistakes out of hope. “Just because you want to believe something is true doesnt make it so”.

I agree. Daenerys always seemed to have a soft spot for the disadvantaged, and Tyrion's dwarfism probably caused Daenerys to give him too much trust and too many second chances. Interestingly, Daenerys is probably one of the few people to not mock Tyrion with dwarf jokes.

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Posted (edited)

The true mistake was not having the Tysha reveal that turns Tyrion into, let's be frank, a repulsive, resentful creature that proves Tywin's unfair assessment of him 'correct'. This dark turn and the incorporation of FAegon-versus-Daenerys allows Tyrion to slowly, steadily plan to be the source of his family's downfall.

Instead, we get whitewashed, t-shirt slogan Tyrion who's best buddies with other fan favorite Varys and apparently 'loves' Daenerys like every man and his dog (the whole Tyrion the Peeping Tom and 'we both loved her, you more successfully', regarding Jon). Because he wasn't allowed to go on his dark path lest audiences (gasp) not consider him an unproblematic fave, he wasn't allowed to do anything interesting or develop. If anything, he ends up losing previous moral complexity and just becomes a 'moral compass' whose 'morality' comprises of idiocy.

Because D&D think being good = being stupid, as they love to remind us.

'No, Daenerys, don't execute people who refuse to surrender! No, Daenerys, don't attack your military enemy! Starve her people in a siege, that's much more moral!'

Saint Tyrion the Stupid was a direct result of no Tysha reveal.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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4 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

The true mistake was not having the Tysha reveal that turns Tyrion into, let's be frank, a repulsive, resentful creature that proves Tywin's unfair assessment of him 'correct'. This dark turn and the incorporation of FAegon-versus-Daenerys allows Tyrion to slowly, steadily plan to be the source of his family's downfall.

Instead, we get whitewashed, t-shirt slogan Tyrion who's best buddies with other fan favorite Varys and apparently 'loves' Daenerys like every man and his dog (the whole Tyrion the Peeping Tom and 'we both loved her, you more successfully', regarding Jon). Because he wasn't allowed to go on his dark path lest audiences (gasp) not consider him an unproblematic fave, he wasn't allowed to do anything interesting or develop. If anything, he ends up losing previous moral complexity and just becomes a 'moral compass' whose 'morality' comprises of idiocy.

Because D&D think being good = being stupid, as they love to remind us.

'No, Daenerys, don't execute people who refuse to surrender! No, Daenerys, don't attack your military enemy! Starve her people in a siege, that's much more moral!'

Saint Tyrion the Stupid was a direct result of no Tysha reveal.

Pretty much spot on.

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6 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

The true mistake was not having the Tysha reveal that turns Tyrion into, let's be frank, a repulsive, resentful creature that proves Tywin's unfair assessment of him 'correct'. <snip>

You may consider that "frank" but it is pretty much 180 from my assessment. I thought what Tywin and Jaime did to Tyrion was horrible and I couldn't have been more sympathetic with Tyrion's point of view. I don't see anything even slightly repulsive about him.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

You may consider that "frank" but it is pretty much 180 from my assessment. I thought what Tywin and Jaime did to Tyrion was horrible and I couldn't have been more sympathetic with Tyrion's point of view. I don't see anything even slightly repulsive about him.

The turn is understandable (as you said, Tywin and Jaime's actions are indefensible), but I don't think it quite excuses choking a whore in cold blood (unlike in the show, where it's self-defense) and going across the narrow sea, abusing another whore, then going on a journey with a fellow dwarf he regularly fantasises about killing. This isn't Tyrion at his best, it's the horrible monster everyone assumes Tyrion to be. It's his moment of 'let me be evil' that spurs a darker side to him.

Though I don't know, maybe you think fantasising about killing innocents and whore abuse is sympathetic. Each to their own.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

The turn is understandable (as you said, Tywin and Jaime's actions are indefensible), but I don't think it quite excuses choking a whore in cold blood (unlike in the show, where it's self-defense) and going across the narrow sea, abusing another whore, then going on a journey with a fellow dwarf he regularly fantasises about killing. This isn't Tyrion at his best, it's the horrible monster everyone assumes Tyrion to be. It's his moment of 'let me be evil' that spurs a darker side to him.

Though I don't know, maybe you think fantasising about killing innocents and whore abuse is sympathetic. Each to their own.

Well, yeah, those are bad things--I wasn't clear that was what you were talking about, I got the impression somehow you were discussing his attitude toward. Tyrion definitely went downhill after killing Shae.

Although that was definitely not "in cold blood." It was murder, for sure, but it was totally hot-blooded rage from discovering Tywin's and her treachery. I think if he had 5 minutes to think about it, it would not have happened. He certainly regretted it immediately, and that, I think, is actually what sent him downhill, not finding out about what happened with Tysha.

EDIT: But I still think "horrible monster" is going overboard. After what he had just found out about Tysha, then to find out that Shae was in Tyrion's bed? Nobody could've stood for that. Sure, it's murder, but I would probably have done the same thing. Don't forget Tyrion and Shae were not only conspiring perjury, it was in order to have Tyrion executed. I can totally sympathize with him for snapping and killing her. Not that snapping is or should be a legal defense, just that I can sympathize.

And what's the other "horrible monster" part? Having loveless sex with a slave whore? Not admirable, I'll grant that, but it not exactly torture, cannibalism and mass murder or other horrible monster material.

 

Edited by Hodor's Dragon

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

 

Although that was definitely not "in cold blood." It was murder, for sure, but it was totally hot-blooded rage from discovering Tywin's and her treachery. I think if he had 5 minutes to think about it, it would not have happened. He certainly regretted it immediately, and that, I think, is actually what sent him downhill, not finding out about what happened with Tysha.

I guess all those paragraphs about wondering where whores go was just GRRM copy-pasting a sentence for shits and gigs. I think the show is making you overestimate the importance of Book-Shae.

Show-Shae seems to actually like Tyrion, but with Book-Shae, it's obvious to everyone but Tyrion that Shae is just playing the part of the doting lover because of money. Hence her easy betrayal and easy sleep with Tywin. While Show-Tyrion evidently regrets killing Shae in self-defense, Book-Tyrion doesn't make remarks one way or another. Once Shae is choked, she vanishes from the narrative.

Not to mention, in the show, Tywin's final provocation of Tyrion is mocking Shae's death (which he somehow knew about from the privy) with 'afraid of a dead whore'. Meanwhile, in the books, Tyrion is demanding the whereabouts of Tysha, and Tywin's final provocation is 'wherever whores go'. He kills his father for calling Tysha, the one person who actually loved him, a whore. Shae is nothing but an afterthought by this point in his downward spiral.

I can see Tyrion going either way in the future books (if they ever happen). Maybe he'll become even more destructive, maybe he'll redeem himself and find his soul again. But either way, it'll be an arc, not this static Saint Tyrion bullshit.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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On 5/17/2019 at 7:51 AM, LanMandragoran said:

Dany's quick character turnaround is the talk of Moles Town, but are we forgetting Tyrion? The once quick witted smart ass halfman who spent season two playing the small council like a fiddle and saved Kings Landing with more military acumen than any other on the show (they don't really seem to have educated Generals, but that's another debate) now suddenly seems incapable of even planning his next meal. He makes an incongruous amount of mistakes and does not seem to serve any useful role except for being Dany's physical moral compass. Jorah's statement that Tyrion's mind is admirable and that he learns from his mistakes could not be further from the truth - Jorah would have been a much better hand. Tyrion's character has been butchered. My once favorite character decimated. 

Tyrion isn't my favorite character in the books by any means, but show tyrion was insufferable. The moment he made moony eyes at Dany at the end of season 6 with the 'I believe in you' nonsense, I knew things would only go downhill from there.

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Sigh. Yup, a lot of characters were assassinated.  Jon! Varys. Dany. Stannis. Tyrion. Cersei. Brienne. Bronn. Lady Stonheart. Sandsnakes.

Not assassinated. Yara. Sam. 

Still want the books because Martin will make me believe.

Do you think one reason for the long wait is that he doesn’t feel happy about Dany s fate, and it is difficult to write?

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Tyrion the cynic, cold blooded asshole with more knowledge than many of the grey rats out of the Citadel, turning into 'lurve'lorn idiot who just wants his family to live and the peasants and cutthroats and whores of Fleabottom to live and flowers and puppies and 'you go bro' and the best stories?!

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On 5/17/2019 at 2:51 PM, LanMandragoran said:

Tyrion's character has been butchered. My once favorite character decimated. 

It's true that Tyrions sucks in the last seasons. He lost it, gave a lot of wrong advice and was not up to his former self.

But is this a character arc destruction or does it show that even he can be out-witted?

Mostly I agree with you that I wish they hadn't shown him like that, but with more wit and better people not listening to him than he being wrong.

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