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Belizarie

Why didn't Lyanna write to Eddard?

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This is just a hypothetical idea for what happened because neither eloping nor kidnapping explanations fit all of the characters' actions. No real proof for it either way. In short, Aerys was targeting Lyanna and RL knew it would start a war between the Starks and Targs, so RL "elope" to try to convince Aerys that it's not a conspiracy and the less the Starks know, the better. 

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Rhaegar & Lyanna:  Instead of eloping or kidnapping, they run off together to try to prevent a war. It makes it just about these two, and not about the rest of the Starks, Baratheons (Robert), and the Arryns. This also provides a more believable context under which they fall in love, or at least warm up to each other: they bond over their shared mission and ideals while on the run rather than the (to me) very forced love at first sight reason. They get to know each other over time. Lyanna can’t send letters to her family because the less they know, the better. The less that is known by the Starks, the less it sounds like a conspiracy to Aerys. It’s the same reason that Ned can’t tell Cat about Jon: if Robert ever found out, then Cat would sound innocent of all of it because she actually didn’t know about it. If she knew about it after the fact and was caught lying, it would implicate her even though she wasn’t actually involved.

 

 

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On 5/17/2019 at 9:35 AM, Belizarie said:

Or to her father. Or to Robert. She had plenty of time to tell them the truth about her "abduction" in order to stop the upcoming rebellion, which ultimately claimed her lover's life. Why all the silence?

I think it is for a very simple reason - they already know. Lyanna has told Ned and likely her father and her other brothers of her objection to the marriage to Robert. The marriage pact was approved anyway. All of Lyanna's brothers are at Harrenhal and they likely know her feelings toward Rhaegar, and at least the older ones still object because Rickard has given the Stark word she will marry Robert. There is also likely a group of Stark servants and guards who are with Lyanna when she disappears with Rhaegar "at swordpoint" as Dany puts it.

So, what would a letter tell Lord Stark, Brandon, or Ned that they do not already know? When Brandon rides into the Red Keep he doesn't yell out for his sister's return. He yells out for Rhaegar to come out and die. Why? Not because he believes Lyanna is held against her will, but because he believes Rhaegar has violated Rickard's rights as a High Lord to make a marriage pact with whomever he wishes.

Edited by SFDanny

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On 5/18/2019 at 4:35 AM, Belizarie said:

Or to her father. Or to Robert. She had plenty of time to tell them the truth about her "abduction" in order to stop the upcoming rebellion, which ultimately claimed her lover's life. Why all the silence?

What makes you think she didn't?
We know Brandon found out something, though not what exactly. Nor from whom.

On 5/18/2019 at 7:33 AM, Belizarie said:

Well then how about Brandon or her father? Someone? She wasn't stupid. You're the daughter of a major lord, you disappear from the face of the realm, you can't expect nobody to come looking for you and further complications.

Given Brandon's prior behavior and Lyanna's prior indications of what she wanted, I would think the worst complications would arrive precisely from people coming to look for you.

Its long been a suspicion of mine that the precise reason why no one knew where to find Rhaegar and Lyanna (until the war was months old at least) was that they didn't want anyone from either side to be able to find them and break them up, and possibly do so by creating even worse complications.
If both sides (Aerys and Rickard) don't want them together, then the most likely scenario when the two disappear, and can't be found or contacted, is that Aerys and Rickard talk and are in agreement in preventing them being together but can't actually act.
Brandon blew that idea with his stupid and pointless reaction it seems. 

But most of it is guesswork since we are operating in an information vacuum here.

On 5/18/2019 at 7:20 PM, Belizarie said:

Aerys II burned lord Rickard and killed Brandon after and because of Lyanna's abduction. Her abduction was the first, primal cause of the subsequent rebellion.

Was it? It was a link in a chain, certainly. Was it the first link? Were there earlier links (such as the QoLaB for example)? Was it a major link?

How come Brandon didn't demand Lyanna be returned?
How come Lyanna is never mentioned by Brandon or Rickard, or even Ned and Robert and Jon Arryn? 
For the primal cause of the rebellion its strange how little its mentioned by the rebels.

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3 hours ago, house of dayne said:

Quite frankly we dont know that she didnt contact ned somehow.. How did ned know where to go

 

Most likely Ashara Dayne told him, which led to the death of her brother and she may have killed herself afterwards along with her miscarriage.  Or she snuck off to be Septa Lemore.

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If she as kidnapped, the answer is obvious.

If she wasn't, consider this: I doubt Rhaegar moved to Dorne only to spent one year alone with her lover. There are some hints about how he planned to move there to try to remove Aerys and be away from Varys while he did so. If so, then it was obvious he wanted to be isolated and only very few people were aware of his whereabouts. Then, if Lyanna joined at some point, even willingly, her writing a letter could have completely ruined his plans.

Also, remember that they were isolated and probably never found out what was happening until it was late. Lyanna writing a letter would not only jeopardize their mission more but wouldn't even be helpful.

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On 5/17/2019 at 12:35 PM, Belizarie said:

Or to her father. Or to Robert. She had plenty of time to tell them the truth about her "abduction" in order to stop the upcoming rebellion, which ultimately claimed her lover's life. Why all the silence?

All the more reason why I suspect that both Lyanna and Rhaegar were kidnapped and being held against their wills. The obvious culprit here would be Aerys, who probably knew that Lyanna was the KotLT and that Rhaegar let her off the hook with his story about finding the arms and armor under a tree. Then, when Rhaegar gave the crown to Lyanna, here was a perfect opportunity to snatch them both and spread the story the Rhaegar suddenly went mad and took the daughter of a high lord. Not only does it disparage Rhaegar's reputation and his support for whatever rebellion he is planning, but it gums up the plan to unite Houses Stark and Baratheon.

 

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On 5/17/2019 at 5:35 PM, Belizarie said:

Or to her father. Or to Robert. She had plenty of time to tell them the truth about her "abduction" in order to stop the upcoming rebellion, which ultimately claimed her lover's life. Why all the silence?

I think that she had expressed a lack of interest in marrying Robert prior to everything. But Rickard (her father) was known to have strong southern ambitions. Marriage is a political tool to players of the game. And love is no guarantee of happiness anyway. I think Lyanna found that particular door to be firmly shut. And so would not attempt it again. Whether in person or by raven.

I think Benjan knew (that it was no abduction) but he was more loyal to his sister than he was his father and brothers. I think this is why he ended up at the NW. His silence cost millions of people their lives. Including that of his own kin. 

I don't think Lyanna could of stopped her family and half the realm from believing whatever they chose to. And let's face it, the rebellion needed a good villain in-order to inspire people to take up arms for Robert. News of the abduction and rape would of swung the neutrals in their favour. Even if the truth was there to be seen, how many people would of chosen to believe it? It was easier for Robert especially.
ETA: Though there was cause to rebel against Aerys, the mad king, Targaryen. Rheagar, up until the alleged abduction was widely loved. Having some 'dirt' on him meant many a lord would swing towards the rebels.

As for a raven.... It's optimistic at best to assume they could of ascertained the right birds for the right places. And it's harder still to imagine it not ending up in the hands of someone who'd only seek to pervert the course of justice in-order to further their own gain. For example, in the wrong hands, it would of brought Robert himself to the ToJ. Were he involved, there would be no discussion. Only blood.

I think the hard truth here is that too many people wanted either,
a. Lyanna and Robert to be wed. This was the slow burn a few lords wanted in-order to consolidate their power.
b. Lyanna to of been abducted and raped. It fanned the flames of a rebellion.

An eventuality where Lyanna and Rhaegar simply married for love was an inconvenient truth to everybody except Lyanna and Rhaegar themselves.

Somebody once said, 'falsehood flies, and the truth comes limping after it.' 

Last of all, Rhaegar was alleged to say that he intended to put together a great council. His whereabouts during the eloping/abduction had him out of the picture for an exorbitant amount of time. So I'm tempted to suggest that he wasn't just sat twiddling his thumbs. I think there's a lot more going on and we simply haven't been told. 

In the absence of a firm answer, I always insist that ppl make up their own minds. It's what GRRM wants us to do. And it makes the story a lot more fun.

Edited by TheThreeEyedCow

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On 5/17/2019 at 6:35 PM, Belizarie said:

Or to her father. Or to Robert. She had plenty of time to tell them the truth about her "abduction" in order to stop the upcoming rebellion, which ultimately claimed her lover's life. Why all the silence?

It´s because G.R.R. Martin made a mistake. It just was´nt convenient for him to add this story line to his version of the rebellion. It was just easier to write without it

It´s hard to think that Lyanna did´nt try to intervene in a war that had the potential to either kill her or her lovers family. What it did finally.

But if she wrote this letter. What would have changed?

1. It would have put Ned in a terrible Situation. He had to decide between the fate of his sister, his obligation to take revenge for his father and brother and his friendship to Robert Baratheon. To know that his fiancee betrayed him, would´nt have made things better for him.

2. It´s also hard to think that Lyanna would have done this without knowledge or backing by Rheagar. It would have been the launch of some secret negotiatiations. And from this point on, things are starting to get VERRRY complicated. And if we have gone so far, it would have been a very beneficial factor for Rheagar to tell Ned that Lyanna was pregnant with his child. 

3. As mentionend, if Lyanna would have written (or messaged in any kind) to her brother, is is very likely that this whould have killed the hole "hidden prince" storyline. Therefore George Martin disliked this whole idea and decided to continue his story with a small (or not so small) logic error. 

 

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On 5/19/2019 at 7:54 AM, SFDanny said:

I think it is for a very simple reason - they already know. Lyanna has told Ned and likely her father and her other brothers of her objection to the marriage to Robert. The marriage pact was approved anyway. All of Lyanna's brothers are at Harrenhal and they likely know her feelings toward Rhaegar, and at least the older ones still object because Rickard has given the Stark word she will marry Robert. There is also likely a group of Stark servants and guards who are with Lyanna when she disappears with Rhaegar "at swordpoint" as Dany puts it.

So, what would a letter tell Lord Stark, Brandon, or Ned that they do not already know? When Brandon rides into the Red Keep he doesn't yell out for his sister's return. He yells out for Rhaegar to come out and die. Why? Not because he believes Lyanna is held against her will, but because he believes Rhaegar has violated Rickard's rights as a High Lord to make a marriage pact with whomever he wishes.

This.

People are looking at this from a modern mindset. But sixteen year old girls do not get to choose who they are going to marry in a medieval setting. Helen wanted to go with Paris, but Troy burned all the same. Whether Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly or unwillingly would only matter to singers who want to make a tragic romantic story out of it. But in any case it would be a huge insult to House Stark and it would merit an angry response from a rash hotheaded young man as Brandon Stark.

And another very important think to keep in mind: when they eloped, Rhaegar was 22 and Lyanna was 14!!! Even by our standards, this would be rape.

I don't think that we need to assume that Lyanna didn't send a letter to his family. If you are a father (or older brother) of a 14 year old girl who sends you a letter explaining how she has left with a 22 year old man who has told her that they need to have sex in order to fulfill a prophecy, odds are that you are going to get very angry.

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On 5/19/2019 at 1:54 AM, SFDanny said:

I think it is for a very simple reason - they already know. Lyanna has told Ned and likely her father and her other brothers of her objection to the marriage to Robert. The marriage pact was approved anyway. All of Lyanna's brothers are at Harrenhal and they likely know her feelings toward Rhaegar, and at least the older ones still object because Rickard has given the Stark word she will marry Robert. There is also likely a group of Stark servants and guards who are with Lyanna when she disappears with Rhaegar "at swordpoint" as Dany puts it.

I'm curious. Are you implying that maybe things with RL started happening before Harrenhal or I am misunderstanding your post?

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm curious. Are you implying that maybe things with RL started happening before Harrenhal or I am misunderstanding your post?

Can't answer for SFDanny, but Lyanna wasn't particularly thrilled with the prospect of marrying Robert, and Ned at least knew it. Then Rhaegar crowns her queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal instead of his wife. Not exactly making his affection a secret. A bit later Lyanna goes missing, abducted by Rhaegar. We are never told the circumstances but the Starks obviously know. How else could they know it was Rhaegar? She wasn't travelling alone and there is no mention of her entourage being slaughtered or even a fight. So, they stayed behind and told what happened. What the Starks told Robert is another thing.

And it can't be repeated often enough, it legally is abduction and rape either way.

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No matter which way we look at this. Rheagar was pretty damn arrogant to pull this stunt. At minimal, her father lord Richard should have been informed, consulted in confindence in some way. Rheagar may have been book smart, prophecy driven but his real world smarts were lacking quite a lot. I do not blame the Starks or Brandon for his actions. By all accounts, the Starks were and are a close family, honorable and were always loyal to their Oaths and sided with the rightful Kings in their Dance and Blackfyre Rebellions. Robert Baratheon was innocent too. The Rebellion was justfied and Rheagar must shoulder half of the blame along with is father. There were valid reasons to keep inbred people from power.

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9 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

It´s hard to think that Lyanna did´nt try to intervene in a war that had the potential to either kill her or her lovers family. What it did finally.

But if she wrote this letter. What would have changed?

It would have changed nothing because the Rebellion wasn't over Lyanna. It was started by Jon Arryn when he disobeyed Aerys' order to hand over Ned and Robert for execution. Getting Lyanna back was a secondary goal, the primary one was to keep their heads.

 

9 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

3. As mentionend, if Lyanna would have written (or messaged in any kind) to her brother, is is very likely that this whould have killed the hole "hidden prince" storyline. Therefore George Martin disliked this whole idea and decided to continue his story with a small (or not so small) logic error. 

I don't see how a letter to Ned would make the hidden prince impossible if Ned simply decided that it would be wise not to spread the info. Which he would, because at that point, there was no going back.

 

56 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

No matter which way we look at this. Rheagar was pretty damn arrogant to pull this stunt. At minimal, her father lord Richard should have been informed, consulted in confindence in some way.

Er... and how do you know that Rickard didn't know? We have next to no information on Rickard's actions, but it was Brandon, not Rickard, who went to KL - and instead of demanding Lyanna back, he wanted to duel Rhaegar. 

 

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6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

And another very important think to keep in mind: when they eloped, Rhaegar was 22 and Lyanna was 14!!! Even by our standards, this would be rape.

I don't think that we need to assume that Lyanna didn't send a letter to his family. If you are a father (or older brother) of a 14 year old girl who sends you a letter explaining how she has left with a 22 year old man who has told her that they need to have sex in order to fulfill a prophecy, odds are that you are going to get very angry.

These statements seem like you are also looking at this with a bit of a modern mindset. ‘Even by our standards’ implies that our standards of rape today are more lax than they are in Westeros, which is not the case. Also, while a 14yr old girl marrying an older man is reprehensible today, it happened a lot in Westeros. The Starks would be very upset by this, but I would argue that a father of a 14yr old girl in our time (in which NO 14yr old girls should get married) should be much more upset. 

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3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Er... and how do you know that Rickard didn't know? We have next to no information on Rickard's actions, but it was Brandon, not Rickard, who went to KL - and instead of demanding Lyanna back, he wanted to duel Rhaegar. 

At this point Lyanna is damaged goods. Getting her back accomplishes nothing. She is no longer fit for a marriage into a family of rank. The only way Rhaegar can make amendments is marry her. Which he probably did, though it was bigamy. That would still leave the issue of the broken promise to Robert. 

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Just now, Loge said:

At this point Lyanna is damaged goods. Getting her back accomplishes nothing. She is no longer fit for a marriage into a family of rank. The only way Rhaegar can make amendments is marry her. Which he probably did, though it was bigamy. That would still leave the issue of the broken promise to Robert. 

Robert could be made handsome amends in lands and titles and a hot wife, for example Cersei :D

If Rhaegar was willing to take the fall, the whole "abduction" could have been agreed on with Rickard so that the Starks wouldn't lose face breaking their word... - Most likely, it wasn't, but since we know so little, such a scenario cannot be ruled out just yet.

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5 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm curious. Are you implying that maybe things with RL started happening before Harrenhal or I am misunderstanding your post?

No, I'm not implying that. What happens before the Harrenhal tourney is we know Lyanna tells Ned of her rejection of Robert's character. We have nothing that suggests Lyanna and Rhaegar even met before the tourney. We have evidence of Lyanna's character relative to a marriage she does not want, and we have evidence Lyanna likes to do things her father forbids. We have the account of Meera Reed that shows this goes to the extent of fighting with tourney swords against three squires, and possibly even entering the tourney itself as a mystery knight against all convention and tradition. 

Next we have some evidence that Lyanna might have been attracted to Rhaegar in the scene in which she cries at his song and pours wine over Benjen for teasing her about it. We certainly have the evidence at the end of the tourney of Rhaegar telling all of Westeros of his interest in Lyanna - whatever the source of that interest is.

Does a romantic relationship start between the two of them at the tourney. I think that depends on what one defines as "romantic." I doubt a sexual relationship is started before the "kidnapping." How long after that is a good question. I think it may be a good while - many months is quite possible - because I believe the "kidnapping" starts as a rescue, not an elopement. Remember we are talking about a likely time period of the first three months of 282 AC for the kidnapping and Jon having been conceived somewhere in the first three months of 283 AC. A year is a long time for the two to be in hidden away together and for a relationship to change between rescuer and rescued into lovers, or husband and wife.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Robert could be made handsome amends in lands and titles and a hot wife, for example Cersei :D

If Rhaegar was willing to take the fall, the whole "abduction" could have been agreed on with Rickard so that the Starks wouldn't lose face breaking their word... - Most likely, it wasn't, but since we know so little, such a scenario cannot be ruled out just yet.

Yes, this is the way I see it as well. Rhaegar purposefully allowed the story to spread that he abducted Lyanna in order to protect her and the Stark’s honor. However, he miscalculated Brandon’s and his father’s reaction and the chain of events that ensued. I don’t think Brandon knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped when he went to KL. Rickard and Ned may have known that Lyanna went willing after the fact but by then Aerys had already set things in motion by arresting the heir to WF. He probably arrested and eventually killed Brandon and Rickard to tie Rhaegar’s hands and destroy any hopes of an alliance that Rhaegar may have had with the North (that is if one believes that Rhaegar was conspiring to overthrow his father). It was a masterstroke on Aerys part and perhaps the idea came from someone else, say Varys.

But then again if Ned knew that Rhaegar loved his sister, there was no reason for him to fight the KG at the ToJ. Even if the KG wanted to install Jon as the rightful King, and Ned’s allegiance was to Robert, there’s no reason for them to fight a duel to the death. The KG should not have had any concerns regarding Ned’s intent towards his sister and her infant. One could argue they heard about the deaths of Elia and her kids and suspected the same fate to befall Lyanna and her child. But wouldn’t Ned’s reputation be known even then, and if not, couldn’t Lyanna have vouched for Ned to Arthur Dayne when they heard of the deaths of Elia and her kids? Whatever Martin comes up with, he needs to tie up all the lose ends and unanswered questions. It can’t just be a whole lot of misunderstandings between otherwise noble and honorable characters.

Edited by teej6

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It is possible it would not matter if she had. Rhaeger was a married man who ran off with a woman engaged to someone else, her consent would have been irrelevant to her father's anger. Also since she was under the age of majority, she would have been unable to consent by the laws of Westeros.

 

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