Lord Qyburn Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Moving this discussion out of the villains of literature thread. Does Feanor really count as a villain? I mean, sure, there was the kinslaying of the Teleri, but keep in mind the Noldor were a thorn in Melkor's side for an age largely through his actions. He fought them while the Valar sat on their asses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I'm not sure he'd count as a villain, though he certainly did some villainous things. I would have thought he is a classic anti-hero, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Feanor is not a villain.Firstly he made Silmarils,the most beautifull things ever and then some bad-ass guy Melkor take it.Of course he will go to retrieve them back,even if gods forbid him that. But he had to lead his people to nearly certain death,why?I mean it would be like Frodo said to all Hobits:"Some Nazguls want to kill me and you should come in war with me since you are my people." Feanor is one of my favourite chracters from Silmarillion but idea to lead entire people to war wasn`t the brightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Qyburn Posted January 16, 2007 Author Share Posted January 16, 2007 Well we saw in the Silmarillion how well Feanor could take on nearly the entire population of Balrogs by himself. The answer? Really damn well, but there's a lot of Balrogs out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Hate to burst your bubble but Feanor was slain by Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs himself, as was the rest of his advance party. I don't recall any mention of Feanor slaying *any* Balrogs in the process. The number of Balrogs seems very limited btw. In Letters, Tolkien speculates that there may have been no more than seven. Wikipedia has a good article: Learning of the Noldor's arrival, Morgoth summoned his armies from his fortress of Angband and attacked Fëanor's encampment in Mithrim. This battle was called the Battle under the Stars, or Dagor-nuin-Giliath, for the Sun and Moon had not yet been made. The Noldor managed to win the battle, and destroy Morgoth's armies. Fëanor, still in a great rage, pressed on toward Angband with his sons. He came even within sight of Angband, but was ambushed by a force of Balrogs, with few elves about him. He fought mightily, hewing even after receiving several wounds from Gothmog, captain of the Balrogs. His sons came upon the balrogs with great force of elves, and were able to drive them off. However, as Fëanor was being escorted off the battlefield, he knew his wounds were mortal. He cursed Morgoth thrice, but with the eyes of death, he knew that his elves, unaided, would never throw down the dark towers of Thangorodrim. Nevertheless, he told his sons to keep the oath and to avenge their father. At the moment of his death the passing of his fiery spirit reduced his body to ashes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Qyburn Posted January 16, 2007 Author Share Posted January 16, 2007 Hey, he still fought several of the Balrogs, including the strongest one. That puts him on par, or maybe even further than Gandalf in terms of raw power. But that's kind of besides the point anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eurytus Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Hate to burst your bubble but Feanor was slain by Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs himself, as was the rest of his advance party. I don't recall any mention of Feanor slaying *any* Balrogs in the process. The number of Balrogs seems very limited btw. In Letters, Tolkien speculates that there may have been no more than seven. Wikipedia has a good article: Learning of the Noldor's arrival, Morgoth summoned his armies from his fortress of Angband and attacked Fëanor's encampment in Mithrim. This battle was called the Battle under the Stars, or Dagor-nuin-Giliath, for the Sun and Moon had not yet been made. The Noldor managed to win the battle, and destroy Morgoth's armies. Fëanor, still in a great rage, pressed on toward Angband with his sons. He came even within sight of Angband, but was ambushed by a force of Balrogs, with few elves about him. He fought mightily, hewing even after receiving several wounds from Gothmog, captain of the Balrogs. His sons came upon the balrogs with great force of elves, and were able to drive them off. However, as Fëanor was being escorted off the battlefield, he knew his wounds were mortal. He cursed Morgoth thrice, but with the eyes of death, he knew that his elves, unaided, would never throw down the dark towers of Thangorodrim. Nevertheless, he told his sons to keep the oath and to avenge their father. At the moment of his death the passing of his fiery spirit reduced his body to ashes. The number of Balrogs is highly changeable. By the end of his work on the histories of Middle Earth Tolkien was starting to consider that there were only 7, but we have no way of knowing whether the piece written on Feanor was written when this was the case. The strength and number of Balrogs varies considerably through his writings and since the Silmarillion is drawn from a number of writings a Balrog in one section may be a very different beast from in another. As for Feanor, he's not a Villain I think. Just a total and utter berk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 That puts him on par, or maybe even further than Gandalf in terms of raw power. I would certainly not put Feanor up there with Gandalf ( in either incarnation) when it comes to raw power, regardless of what one may think his nature. Eurytus Sure. But at some point you have to draw a line and conclude something. I guess I take it as a given that since 7 seems to have been the final thought that was written down, that's what he wanted. It's possible that the scene in the published Silmarillion is one in which JRRT still thought there were more than 7, but we don't know one way or the other, so I take his final thought on it as canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Paladin Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Feanor had pride and wrath, but did he go to war for the Silmarils or to avenge his father after Morgoth killed him? The Valar let out a character known as "the Black Enemy." Morgoth went on to not just steal a handful of gems, but also to sabotage the power utilities in Aman. The fact that the Valar took a few thousand years to finally fix their mistake, at Earendil's urging, puts the blame at their feet. Feanor is your classic movie anti-hero, going after the criminal who killed his family and stole his stuff, because the proper authorities wouldn't do the job themselves. He's Mad Max, Batman, and a dozen others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Qyburn Posted January 16, 2007 Author Share Posted January 16, 2007 Feanor had pride and wrath, but did he go to war for the Silmarils or to avenge his father after Morgoth killed him? Well, from wiki: "Be he friend or foe or seed defiled of Morgoth Bauglir, or mortal child that in after days on earth shall dwell, no law, nor love, nor league of hell, not might of Gods, not moveless fate shall him defend from wrath and hate of Fëanor's sons, who takes or steals or finding keeps the Silmarils, the thrice-enchanted globes of light that shine until the final night." That would tend to imply that he was mostly in it for the Silmarils, but the Silmarils were his, and Morgoth did steal them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Weren't the Silmarils created from the light of the Two Trees? which were the property of the Valar, IIRC. Feanor got stingy and wouldn't even allow the Valar to use the Silmarils to recreate the trees, fearing they coveted them. He was full of pride and projected his own worst characteristics on others, thinking everybody was out to get him, which led to the oath of Feanor and most of the bad stuff that happened to the Noldor afterwards. Morgoth's the villain, but Feanor sure wasn't a saint. You gotta admire the guy - er, elf, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Feanor was my favorite from the Silmarillion. 'Tis true that he went after the Silmarils but it was also to free himself from Aman. In that he let Melkor's lies get to him. But it wasn't only the Silmarils that led to Feanor's war with Melkor. They were just a symbol. Silmarillion p. 93 "Then Feanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Yeah, he was my favorite too, if truth be known. Quick side note: I've always wondered why there were pairings between elf women and human men, but never between elf men and human women. What, would the dudes burn 'em out or something?? What's up with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Paladin Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 That would tend to imply that he was mostly in it for the Silmarils, but the Silmarils were his, and Morgoth did steal them. Well, LQ, I was on your side to start, but after refreshing my memory, Feanor is a villain. Threatened his half brother after fearing that Fingolfin would take over as next king of the Noldor. Took and hid the Silmarils. Forced his sons to take his oath. Refuses to give the Silmarils to Yavana. Took a great portion of the Elves out of Aman, which was just stupid. Sorry, man, he's not even an anti-hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niamh Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Feanor is the sin of pride incarnate. The massacre of Alqualonde should be enough on its own to slate him as a villain (let alone the crossing of the Helcaraxe or other genocidal ideas). Some villains are highly likeable is all. Which is probably what a anti-hero, in fact, is: A likeable villain with obvious redeeming features. I would certainly not put Feanor up there with Gandalf ( in either incarnation) when it comes to raw power, regardless of what one may think his nature. I would. He was possibly the most powerful elf ever to walk the earth. When you consider Galadriel being already on a par with Gandalf, I can imagine Feanor was even superior. Those first elves and men were quite the thing. The istari were only lower maia, and Gandalf wasn't even the strongest of them. Feanor was strong enough to defy Melkor (if not to win); Gandalf couldn't even challenge Saruman, and barely managed the weakened Sauron-necromancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Qyburn Posted January 16, 2007 Author Share Posted January 16, 2007 A lot of you are faulting him on things he did because he fell for Morgoth's lies, however, who else do we know that fell for Morgoth's lies even when Feanor didn't? Oh, yeah, the Valar. If you're holding him to a higher standard than them I think you're just a bit unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naz Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Are we talking Gandalf as Olorin in the West, or Gandalf as Mithrandir in M-E? Olorin's power as a Maia was purposefully kept in check while wandering M-E as Mithrandir. Even so, even allowing for Olorin's unchecked (and unknown) power as a Maia in Valinor, it's completely possible for Feanor to be more powerful than him. Feanor was an exceptionally powerful being - he must've been if even Melkor feared him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niamh Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 A lot of you are faulting him on things he did because he fell for Morgoth's lies, however, who else do we know that fell for Morgoth's lies even when Feanor didn't? Oh, yeah, the Valar. If you're holding him to a higher standard than them I think you're just a bit unreasonable. Huh. Nobody fell for it except Feanor and sons (and even not all of them entirely). Are we talking Gandalf as Olorin in the West, or Gandalf as Mithrandir in M-E? Olorin's power as a Maia was purposefully kept in check while wandering M-E as Mithrandir. Even so, even allowing for Olorin's unchecked (and unknown) power as a Maia in Valinor, it's completely possible for Feanor to be more powerful than him. Feanor was an exceptionally powerful being - he must've been if even Melkor feared him. Both, on my part. And yes, agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Qyburn Posted January 16, 2007 Author Share Posted January 16, 2007 Huh. Nobody fell for it except Feanor and sons (and even not all of them entirely). I thought the Valar bought Melkor's repentance but Feanor hated him during his entire stay in Valinor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyP Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Melkor feared him. a. Melkor is a coward b. He is the only vala to know fear. Melkor fearing someone didn't make them great, I think the Sil even states that he feared men in general more than elves because they were not bound to the fate of Arda which from his POV may have made them more dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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