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Feanor


Lord Qyburn

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Feanor in all things was considered the greatest elf, the combination of intellect, spirit, fighting prowess, crafting, etc. But in pure combat he certainly was not the strongest elf. That would have to go to his younger brother Fingolfin, who rode untouched through the lines of Morgoth's army and well fought him well in single combat. You can make the argument that Feanor wasn't even the best fighter in his own line of the tree. Maehdros had greater feats of martial strength than his father. A couple more elves I could put above Feanor in martial strength would be Fingon and possibly Echtelion. But it's hard to get to the truth of the battle of Gondolin, since it's pretty clear that Balrogs are treated differently there than in the rest of Silmarrilion.

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Arakasi,

I think most people in this thread are surely not referring to Feanor's "power" in purely combat terms. As you said, overall, he had tremendous abilities, foremost of which was his intense spirit and force of will. Tolkien was intentionally vague about the use of the word "power" in his world. He used the term at different times to describe all the qualities you mention Feanor as having, and he even went so far to say in clear language that Feanor was, as you say, the greatest elf who ever lived.

At question, I guess, is whether he was more "powerful" than other beings, Maiar in particular. Unfortunately (or fortunately rather), Tolkien himself never devised a D&D-type scale to quantify the level of "power" in different beings and thus we'll never really know whether Feanor could've whipped Gandalf in a UFC Clash of Fireballs or whether he could've beaten Aule in a Jewel-Off. Nor does it really matter, when you think about it. As niamh and others pointed out, it's more important and interesting to think of Feanor's mythical and heroic implications.

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Heh, I hated Feanor. I usually don't dislike characters for being flawed, but the guy was a selfish, backstabbing moron, despite the texts repeated insistence that he was the "greatest" of the elves. At any rate, I'd put him as a "tragic hero," a person with great potential that ultimately succumbs to his flaws.

Quick side note: I've always wondered why there were pairings between elf women and human men, but never between elf men and human women. What, would the dudes burn 'em out or something?? What's up with that?
As I recall, Tolkien has been accused of putting women on pedastles. I think part of that is the theme of rough men, often of a "lower species," falling in love with unearthly, perfect women. I think it had something to do with how he idolized his wife. He had "Luthien" and "Beren" put on their graves.
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I see what you're saying, Oorag. I've considered several possibilities, and you're probably right. Interesting to note that as much as he idolized his wife, he preferred to spend most of his time with his chums. One of the downfalls of being an idol, I guess. As I recall, she, like many other great writers' wives, while intelligent in her own right, didn't quite match up to his friends' intellectually.

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Yeah, it's usually the women "marrying down." Melian the Maia with Elwe the Elf. Luthein the half-maia/half-elf with Beren (Greatest human hero with a half god, I guess that works), Tuor with Idril, and Arwen with Aragorn.

I guess Earendil doesn't count, as he was half-elf, and Elwing was 5/8 elf, 1/8 maia, and 1/4 human. He still was marrying up, though.

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I've just gotta ask: Does everyone do research to figure out things like how much Elf so-and-so is and what what's-his-name is who lived in Gondolin before the fall, or do you just recall off the top of your head? (Not just you Ser Paladin. :) )

I'm the biggest geek I know, and I can't remember this stuff! :read::huh:

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Quick side note: I've always wondered why there were pairings between elf women and human men, but never between elf men and human women. What, would the dudes burn 'em out or something?? What's up with that?

The other explanation is that elf men are pigs. Unlike the women, who can see beyond rough exterior, men go for looks. Women of the engwar probably compare to quendi hotties about as well as your average middle-aged house-wife compares to Adriana Lima.

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Another Fëanor-fan here, probably my favorite character ever. Definitely not a villain, I'd classify him as an anti-hero as well. More human than most elves in Tolkien's world, and indeed more so than most of his humans as well.

Quick side note: I've always wondered why there were pairings between elf women and human men, but never between elf men and human women. What, would the dudes burn 'em out or something?? What's up with that?

We have one example (from Morgoths Ring, HoMe X, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth), the relationship between Andreth and Aegnor, another one of my fave's*. Not a very happy tale though, Aegnor couldn't cope due to their different natures (the war didn't help either, and effectively ruined it), before his death in the Dagor Bragolach.

* ...this passage mainly the reason why:

Aikanáro [Aegnor] was called by his father Ambaráto. The Sindarin form of this would have been Amrod; but to distinguish this from Angrod, and also because he preferred it, he used his mother name. Aika-nár- meant ‘fell fire’. It was in part a ‘prophetic’ name; for he was renowned as one of the most valiant of the warriors, greatly feared by the Orks: in wrath or battle the light of his eyes was like flame, though otherwise he was a generous and noble spirit. But in early youth the fiery light could be observed; while his hair was notable: golden like his brothers and sister, but strong and stiff, rising upon his head like flames.
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Tears,

If you've read it enough times as some of us have, it's ingrained in your memory that Elwing is the daughter of Dior (1/2 man, 1/4 elf, 1/4 maia) and Nimloth (full elf) and that Dior is the son of Luthien (1/2 elf, 1/2 maia) and Beren (full man) and that Luthien is the daughter of Thingol (full elf) and Melian (full maia) and that Earendil was the son of Tuor (full man) and Idril Celebrindal (full elf) and that if you work out all those fractions, you get that Earendil was half-elven and that Elwing was...whatever Ser Paladin said...

Btw, that makes Elrond technically 9/16 Elven, that doesn't look very nice on the printed page, does it?

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Quick side note: I've always wondered why there were pairings between elf women and human men, but never between elf men and human women. What, would the dudes burn 'em out or something?? What's up with that?

I'd actually go for the obvious answer. Elven males are phenominally poorly endowed. This also explains why so many Elven women are going for humans.

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Arakasi,

I think most people in this thread are surely not referring to Feanor's "power" in purely combat terms. As you said, overall, he had tremendous abilities, foremost of which was his intense spirit and force of will. Tolkien was intentionally vague about the use of the word "power" in his world. He used the term at different times to describe all the qualities you mention Feanor as having, and he even went so far to say in clear language that Feanor was, as you say, the greatest elf who ever lived.

At question, I guess, is whether he was more "powerful" than other beings, Maiar in particular. Unfortunately (or fortunately rather), Tolkien himself never devised a D&D-type scale to quantify the level of "power" in different beings and thus we'll never really know whether Feanor could've whipped Gandalf in a UFC Clash of Fireballs or whether he could've beaten Aule in a Jewel-Off. Nor does it really matter, when you think about it. As niamh and others pointed out, it's more important and interesting to think of Feanor's mythical and heroic implications.

Well I agree, but people like Qyburn and Niamh were going on about how Feanor's power and how he could take on Gandalf and such. I just wanted to point out that in terms of pure power like that, Feanor was certainly not the greatest of the elfs. Echtelion took on Gothmog and killed him, Feanor didn't really do much against him. Fingolfin cut through a whole army and attacked Morgoth himself. At that point you could probably say that Fingolfin was the most powerful elf who ever lived. He was so berserk and enraged there that no one in Morgoth's army would go near him. They ran away in fear. Not to say that he was a greater elf than Feanor, because he lacked Feanor's mind, craftmanship, gift of scholarship, skill as an orator, etc. But in leadership, generalship (was a great strategist), martial prowess and pure power in battle, I don't think one can make a case against Fingolfin.

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Well I agree, but people like Qyburn and Niamh were going on about how Feanor's power and how he could take on Gandalf and such.

Well, he survived against Gothmog and several other Balrogs. Gandalf barely managed to take out one in an even fight, and it killed him in the process.

Still, this is quite beside the point of the thread.

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Well I agree, but people like Qyburn and Niamh were going on about how Feanor's power and how he could take on Gandalf and such. I just wanted to point out that in terms of pure power like that, Feanor was certainly not the greatest of the elfs. Echtelion took on Gothmog and killed him, Feanor didn't really do much against him. Fingolfin cut through a whole army and attacked Morgoth himself. At that point you could probably say that Fingolfin was the most powerful elf who ever lived. He was so berserk and enraged there that no one in Morgoth's army would go near him. They ran away in fear. Not to say that he was a greater elf than Feanor, because he lacked Feanor's mind, craftmanship, gift of scholarship, skill as an orator, etc. But in leadership, generalship (was a great strategist), martial prowess and pure power in battle, I don't think one can make a case against Fingolfin.

First off, Echtelion was fighting a single balrog while Fëanor battled several ("Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds;").

Fingolfin didn't cut through any army to reach Morgoth, he rode alone to Angband (he didn't meet any army, though it's true that Morgoth's servants avoided him). His fight with Morgoth was certainly a great feat, but we can't be sure how others would have fared in the same situation - Morgoth had by this point been greatly weakened, due to having invested lots of power in marring the works of the Valar, creating servants, etc. Fingolfin would also have, by this point, had a lot more experience with fighting and warfare than Fëanor ever had.

Not arguing Fingolfin's ability as leader and general though, he was certainly a much more able strategist than Fëanor (rash and obsessed dude that he was) ever would have become.

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I thought the Valar bought Melkor's repentance but Feanor hated him during his entire stay in Valinor?

Ah that. Sorry I misunderstood you :)

I've just gotta ask: Does everyone do research to figure out things like how much Elf so-and-so is and what what's-his-name is who lived in Gondolin before the fall, or do you just recall off the top of your head? (Not just you Ser Paladin. :) )

I'm the biggest geek I know, and I can't remember this stuff! :read::huh:

For stuff that very basic, definitely off the top of our heads ;)

The geekness involved in true Tolkienism is beyond any recordable scale :D

As an aside to the off-topic argument, In pure military "strength" and feats, I am in the Fingolfin camp. No question.

Naz did get what I was aiming at, anyway :)

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How Tolkien made the three brothers is that they all together had different skills and qualities. Feanor the intellectual and crafter, rash of mind. Fingolfin the fighter and planner of battles, courageous. And Finarfin who is shown as the wisest of the three. Fingolfin was always a fighter from the very start, because well Tolkien made him that way.

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Yeah, I'd be the last one to debate Fingolfin's greatness in any way. He's probably my favorite character in the Sil, if I was forced at gunpoint to pick one. His fight with Morgoth brings tears to my eyes every time I read it... Tolkien was at his best writing that passage.

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Fingolfin would be my second favorite character, behind Finrod. He imo brought the greatness and best qualities of his father and his uncles together in one package. He was a fighter and courageous like Fingolfin, he was the second best craftsmen and creator of the Noldor behind Feanor, and he was wise like Finarfin. He built the first alliances with the humans. He built the most powerful of the Elf Kingdoms in Nargothrond. Shame that Feanor's curse in the form of his worst sons (Caranthir, Celegorm and Curufin) brought his reign down. But he went out in great fashion, fighting Sauron.

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Yeah, I'd be the last one to debate Fingolfin's greatness in any way. He's probably my favorite character in the Sil, if I was forced at gunpoint to pick one. His fight with Morgoth brings tears to my eyes every time I read it... Tolkien was at his best writing that passage.

:love::love::love:

John Howe's illustration is so awesome too (Even though Fingolfin isn't my favourite. The scene is one of them)

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I love that illustration as well, but the one flaw that I just can't get past is that Fingolfin looks too.... shiny and clean. I feel like he should be, I dunno... dirtier.

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Well, LQ, I was on your side to start, but after refreshing my memory, Feanor is a villain.

Forced his sons to take his oath.

Errrr - what? There is nothing to imply that he forced his sons to take the Oath of Feanor. IDHMBIFOM, but it is something like "Then Feanor swore a terrible oath. His sons leapt straightways to his side, and [swore the oath as well]".

Aratan

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