Feanor

[Arataniello]

If I had to pick one major Vala to associate fire with, it'd be Aule. Smiths and fire seem combined in many early myths, for good reason.

Having a one-to-one relationship between the Valar and the Maiar based on their 'element' would mean that many Valar would have NO Maiar followers wahtsoever!

Air - Manwe, ?Varda

Earth - Yavanna, ?Orome

Fire - Aule

Water - Ulmo

Just because the Balrogs were "spirits of fire" doesn't automatically mean they HAD to be followers of Aule.

Aratan

[Merentha]

True, as your "Sun" example shows. Still, given Aule's record, both personal and those of his followers, it does make sense that many of the rebelling fire spirits were Aule's.

[Arataniello]

True, as your "Sun" example shows. Still, given Aule's record, both personal and those of his followers, it does make sense that many of the rebelling fire spirits were Aule's.

Osse - Maia of Ulmo, at one point Melkor tried to subvert his, but he (Osse) was brought back to his true allegiance by his wife Uinen.

Rebelling Maia were not just a probelm for Aule.

Aratan

[oneeye]

feanor was bad ass, how many balrogs did they need to take him down.

he was more anti hero than villain to me.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Osse - Maia of Ulmo, at one point Melkor tried to subvert his, but he (Osse) was brought back to his true allegiance by his wife Uinen.

Rebelling Maia were not just a probelm for Aule.

Aratan

But look at who are the forefront villains of the Lord of the Rings: Sauron, Saruman.

[Calibandar]

Qyburn:

Well, he survived against Gothmog and several other Balrogs. Gandalf barely managed to take out one in an even fight, and it killed him in the process.

Read the Silmarillion again. You will see that Feanor did not survive. He was killed by the Balrogs, as far as we know without slaying a single one. Gandalf took down a Balrog on his own and when he returned as the White his powers were greater, and none but Sauron could have been perceived to be greater.

In general, you shouldn't compare an Elf to a spirit like a Maia. The Maiar are the greatest in might except for the Valar. They naturally possessed crafts mortals or Elves simply didn't, that is the way Tolkien shaped Middle Earth. Feanor was a gifted Elf, greatest in mind and skills of all the Elves. But he was also lacking in wisdom, lacking in morale, highly vindictive and very petty. Unlike say Fingolfin, he was not known for his fighting prowess. As far as we know, his abilities outside of craftmaking and creating languages etc would not rival those of the Istari for instance. We do not know of Feanor's might in one on one situations other than that he might have defended himself by sword. Quite different from one such as Gandalf, a true wizard who can employ genuine magic ( which is rare in M-E).

I'm fine with people believing he is not a villain though I personally don't understand why anyone would think so given his list of deeds. I'd root for him if he were fighting Morgoth, but against anyone else? It's clear that JRRT said he was the greatest of the Elves ( but then again he said so of Luthien Tinuviel as well) but this is mainly in mind and artistry. Gandalf himself speaks highly of him in RoTK. But he was not the greatest in leadership or fighting prowess or many other areas, and I see no reason to believe why he would be greater than a Maia in raw power, as was mentioned earlier.

Roose/Denethor

Regarding the kinslaying, I think it's worth remembering that that took place after Olwe turned down Feanor's request for a boat ride. Olwe's reasoning? Those ships were the Teleri's "work of their heart, whose like we shall not make again" i.e. they were too precious to lend. Don't you think Feanor, who was chasing after the work of his heart, the like of which he would never make again, could be justified in feeling that the Teleri were engaging in "I'm all right, Jack"?

In a word: No. Not in the slightest. By your reasoning, if a man were to come to my house and told me that he needs my new car to drive to Paris because that is where the best jeweler is, I don't really think he is justified in killing me and taking my new car when I refuse him.

[Maester Cressan]

Quick side note: I've always wondered why there were pairings between elf women and human men, but never between elf men and human women. What, would the dudes burn 'em out or something?? What's up with that?

I think it has to do with Tolkien's romance of his wife. All of his man-elf pairings are based around his own personal love story- and in his love story he is the the lowly man aspiring to wed an elvish princess. I think it is noteworthy that Tolkien's wife was older than him- when they first fell in love she was 19, and he was 16.

[oneeye]

yeah but feanor was fighting at least two or three and one was a higher balrog lietenant of melkor himself that could have given sauron a run for his money.

The ancient noldor were powerful indeed.

Fingolfin gave melkor himself a good licking before he died, and Luthien and Beren and Huan easily overcame sauron, then cast an enchantment over melkor himself to steal the silmarils back.

I'm not saying the Maiar are weak but those ancient elves were a force to be reckoned with, feanor probably the most powerful of the lot.

[niamh]

Just pasting the actual death of Feanor

Yet cause he had for great joy, though it was hidden from him for a while. For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin. There he would have perished, had not his sons in that moment come up with force to his aid; and the Balrogs left him, and departed to Angband.

Then his sons raised up their father and bore him back towards Mithrim. But as they drew near to Eithel Sirion and were upon the upward path to the pass over the mountains, Fëanor bade them halt; for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father. Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.

Naz:

Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable on-blazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.

To me, that's what the picture conveys. A glittering little star under a great stormcloud. Maybe I'd also have liked it to show the end of the duel, where his shield breaks, actually. Still:

Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a 'lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.

But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon hint Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gashed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old.

[Tears of Lys]

So Feanor was the mightiest, and Fingolfin was the most proud and valiant.

For Feanor to battle balrogs as well as he did makes him a mighty warrior; however, Fingolfin fought Morgoth himself, which trumps Feanor.

They both lost, but they were both tough mu'fuhs.

[Arakasi]

I would switch that around tears. Feanor was definately the most proud. And he was the greatest when you took all parts of his self and character together. But in battle, which is what I'd call might and valiance and courageous, that's Fingolfin all the way. Like Feanor he struck deep into Morgoth's army. Unlike Feanor he was alone. And unlike Feanor Morgoth's forces were scared shitless and ran from him. Plus well Feanor did fight balrogs hard before falling. However so did Fingon. How the two died is remarkably similar. It's hard to say for sure, but I think Fingolfin would have taken Gothmog in combat and taken him down.

[Multaniette]

Regarding slaying of Balrogs, didn't Ecthelion of Gondolin slay one during the sack?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Roose/Denethor

Good to see you, Calibandar/Mithfanion/Gil-Galad. Small world isn't it?

In a word: No. Not in the slightest. By your reasoning, if a man were to come to my house and told me that he needs my new car to drive to Paris because that is where the best jeweler is, I don't really think he is justified in killing me and taking my new car when I refuse him.

I don't think that's a fair analogy. Suppose on the other hand, Leonardo da Vinci was chasing after a guy who had stolen the Mona Lisa, and suppose he needed a horse of an old friend, a renowned horse-breeder, for whom he had done a fair bit of work in the past. Also suppose that the authorities were doing nothing to try and recover the Mona Lisa: da Vinci's only hope of getting the painting back is if he is allowed to borrow the horse to chase down the thief. But the old friend refuses him. While (obviously) da Vinci would not be justified in killing his friend, I would understand him getting thoroughly irritated by his friend's lack of cooperation.

[Arakasi]

Mult, Echtelion killed Gothmog, who had killed both Feanor and Fingon. The thing that makes it hard to look at is that someplace in Tolkien's writing Balrogs changed in power. Go look at Book of Lost Tales. During the siege of Gondolin tons of Balrogs are slain. Tuor kills a few of them. Echtelion kills more including Gothmog before dying (while killing Gothmog). Rog and his clan took down a massive amount of them in their suicidal attack. So either everyone else sucked (Balrogs are just not killed really in Silmarillion outisde battle of Gondolin and the War of Wrath when the Valar come back) or Balrogs are considered lesser in the siege of Gondolin. Regardless though, Echtelion did kill Gothmog and that counts for a lot.

[Falagar]

I don't think that's a fair analogy. Suppose on the other hand, Leonardo da Vinci was chasing after a guy who had stolen the Mona Lisa, and suppose he needed a horse of an old friend, a renowned horse-breeder, for whom he had done a fair bit of work in the past. Also suppose that the authorities were doing nothing to try and recover the Mona Lisa: da Vinci's only hope of getting the painting back is if he is allowed to borrow the horse to chase down the thief. But the old friend refuses him. While (obviously) da Vinci would not be justified in killing his friend, I would understand him getting thoroughly irritated by his friend's lack of cooperation.

Not to forget the murder of his father, which might have been just as big a motivation as the Silms and contributed to his madness.

I would switch that around tears. Feanor was definately the most proud. And he was the greatest when you took all parts of his self and character together. But in battle, which is what I'd call might and valiance and courageous, that's Fingolfin all the way. Like Feanor he struck deep into Morgoth's army. Unlike Feanor he was alone. And unlike Feanor Morgoth's forces were scared shitless and ran from him. Plus well Feanor did fight balrogs hard before falling. However so did Fingon. How the two died is remarkably similar. It's hard to say for sure, but I think Fingolfin would have taken Gothmog in combat and taken him down.

He didn't fight Morgoth's army on the road, nor did he encounter it in battle before he faced Morgoth. The people who beheld him fled from his sight (apparently he resembeled Oromë) while he was riding towards Angband, but the situation isn't really comparable to that of Fëanor, who was chasing a fleeing enemy host. Fingon fought Gothmog, but lost the moment another one appeared behind him. As mentioned, Fëanor fought what seems to be several (including Gothmog) for a long time.

Fëanor was a pretty unlucky case. His mother was the first elf in Aman (indeed, the first we get to hear specifically about, IIRC) to have tasted death (and while he was at a pretty early age - in one version right after his birth), and he was probably the only one to experience a parent re-marrying. Being unusually bright and 'great', as well as an only child living with a single-parent (perhaps spoilt?), no wonder he grew up to be prideful. Morgoth's lies apparently reached and affected him, but Fëanor actually saw through him when they met in person - which it seems a lot of the Noldor didn't (nor Manwë, for that matter).

I'll not defend his actions; neither Alqualondë nor the stealing/burning of the ships were justified, though sound political manouvers. I still wouldn't count him as a villain - in the classic sense - as he's at least a somewhat sympathetic character with a pretty tragic past and understandable motives. Not a nice person, though ("Fell and fey are you become", as Amrod put it)

[snake]

Just looking through the Silmarillion and Echtelion did indeed kill Gothmog but he was slain also. Much the same with Glorfindel and the Balrog he faced. Much like Gandalf and the Balrog he faced. So I would think that Gandalf had no more power than those two although he was reborn later.

And it does seem strange because in the Silmarillion there are only two instances of Balrogs being killed.

[Arakasi]

Well no the situation wasn't comparable. Remember when Fingolfin decided to mount his charge, it was because of despair on learning of how horrible the battle was going. Morgoth's forces at the 4th battle were far bigger than they were at the one Feanor was involved in. They were launching attacks on every front and had already killed Angrod and Aegnor. So while Feanor did chase a broken enemy host and got trapped by Gothmog, Fingolfin charged through an unbroken army of Morgoth straight to the gates. Which is why I think Fingolfin's feats are greater, even before getting into the epid battle against Morgoth.

Just looking through the Silmarillion and Echtelion did indeed kill Gothmog but he was slain also. Much the same with Glorfindel and the Balrog he faced. Much like Gandalf and the Balrog he faced. So I would think that Gandalf had no more power than those two although he was reborn later.

And it does seem strange because in the Silmarillion there are only two instances of Balrogs being killed.

If you look at Book of Lost Tales 2 you'll see a lot more balrogs in the fight in Gondolin. And many of them get killed. But like I said before it's hard to take those Balrogs as the same as the other Balrogs that were fought. Also one can make the argument that Gothmog is far stronger than some random Balrog. Glorfindel's one was one guarding the escape routes of the vale. Gandalf's was one who had survived all the wars (probably by running away or hiding). Gothmog was the lord of the Balrogs and had two high kings to his credit in killing. Gandalf you can look at much like people here are looking at Feanor. While he wasn't as great in personal combat as some, when you put everything together like his wisdom, intellect, forsight, etc then he is greater. Same with Elrond compared to some as well as Galadriel (although I firmly think her brother was better in nearly all regards compared to her).

If I had to list the greatest elves of all time I'd say: (rating them as levels in the first case)

1. Feanor/Ingwe/Luthien

2. Finwe

3. Fingolfin/Finrod/Finarfin/Dior/Thingol

4. Gil-Galad, Fingon and Galadriel

5. Maglor, Angrod, some others.

If you're talking about pure power in combat.

1. Fingolfin

2. Maedhros (the guy was truely bad ass)

3. Echtelion

4. Gil-Galad

5. Fingon

[Tears of Lys]

I can't recall. Weren't balrogs Maira, and so if they're "killed," their spirits go back to the halls of Mandros, and are eventually reborn? or was that just for Elves? I was always a bit unclear on what happened to beings other than humans after death.

Feel free to ignore this thread-jack

[AndyP]

Olorin/Mithrandir/Gandalf - Was a Maiar of Lorien and he also spent time with his sister Nienna. She was supposed to have taught Olorin about pity. Also he had been known for going forth among the Children of Iluvatar sp? mainly the firstborn and appearing among them as one of them and then disappearing again but leaving those who he was with, with hope.

[Arakasi]

I can't recall. Weren't balrogs Maira, and so if they're "killed," their spirits go back to the halls of Mandros, and are eventually reborn? or was that just for Elves? I was always a bit unclear on what happened to beings other than humans after death.

Feel free to ignore this thread-jack

Well most Mair do that. The thing is the Balrogs I think fall in the same category as Morgoth and Sauron. They when they die go into the void. No halls and cushy afterlife for them.