Feanor

[Altherion]

Feanor was the greatest creator among the elves. I think he was trapped by his own creations -- to some (Feanor, some of his sons, Morgoth, the dwarves who made a necklace with one of them), the Silmarils were similar to what the Ring was to Smeagol/Gollum: once they saw one, they had to have it (even if it burned them thereafter). Pride had a part in his behavior as well, but it was mostly the Silmarils that did him in.

On the bright side, if it wasn't for Feanor, humanity would have been completely screwed. All the Valar put together (not counting Morgoth) gave no more than half a damn for them (that half a damn being mostly donated by Ulmo) before Earendil finally got their attention.

I more or less agree with the sentiment that he's one of those people who chooses to act when the proper authorities are sitting on their asses and not doing a thing. And (like many of his kind), lacking the power of said authorities, he makes a mess of it.

[Vercint]

There's certainly a lot of similarities between the Silmarils and the Ring, and the way so many desire them is the most central. Still, I think there is an important difference in that Sauron shaped the Ring specifically to seduce and ruin people while Feanor created the Silmarils out of more complex reasons, part of which certainly was pride but also out of the joy and love of creation itself. Hence there is the difference that where one can possess the Silmarils, and everyone wants to, the Ring possess you.

In addition, I would say there is a difference in the way Feanor desires the Silmarils and the way others do. It is more than just greed and avarice that drives him to seek to win them back. I always felt that what drove him more than pride was a, quite justified, outrage first that Morgoth would steal the Silmarils and then, in some ways even worse, that the Valar refused to give him justice.

This anger is what drove him to the desperate, and sometimes rather horrible acts that began the wars of Beleriand. The fact that the Silmarils belonged to him and that he treasured them above all else because he had -- to use the modern phrase -- put so much of himself into them makes his acts somehow sympathtic, despite all the grief they caused. It also puts him far above all the others, including his sons, who desired the Silmarils.

Well, that is except for Beren and Luthien, who get off far better because they wanted the Silmarils out of love for each other and only because they needed them to make her father let them marry.

[AndyP]

On the bright side, if it wasn't for Feanor, humanity would have been completely screwed. All the Valar put together (not counting Morgoth) gave no more than half a damn for them (that half a damn being mostly donated by Ulmo) before Earendil finally got their attention.

I more or less agree with the sentiment that he's one of those people who chooses to act when the proper authorities are sitting on their asses and not doing a thing. And (like many of his kind), lacking the power of said authorities, he makes a mess of it.

I think that is a misread. It is pretty clear in Sil that the Valar had already begun to plan out what they were going to do in responce. It is clear that their first stroke was to create the Sun and the Moon. It is also clear that they were holding back because they didn't know where the 2nd born would arise at. They had originaly held back on attacking Utumno for the same reason because they didn't know where the elves would arise at. Also we don't what the Valar would have done had the Noldor not gotten in the way. The Valar never denied Feanor justice they simply asked that he not act rashly.

Look at it this way when the Valar finally attacked the host was made up of the Noldor who had stayed behind, the Vanyar, the survivors of the Edain, the Maiar, and Earendil and the Eagles of Manwe. And yet there is at least in Sil no mention of any of the Valar being directly involved and still most of Belariand gets sunk and the Ered Luin gets split in two and some rivers change course. If Feanor gets his way the Valar would have launched an unplanned frontal assault on Angband without restoring light to the world or knowing where mankind is due to arise.

[Calibandar]

Altherion

I more or less agree with the sentiment that he's one of those people who chooses to act when the proper authorities are sitting on their asses and not doing a thing.

The Valar would have acted, there were plans. It was just that Feanor disagreed with them and chose a different course of action, one that was swifter. I don't think it's correct to read the book as saying that the Valar would have simply stood by. It's a shame because a combined force of many Elves and Maiar spirits would have taken Morgoth down, as we later saw in the War of Wrath. The only thing that bothered me about the Valar is their refusal to act at all in the First Age. Yes, some of the Elves split off and were cursed and doomed for it. But at the same time their Arch enemy Morgoth Bauglir was raging rampant in M-E and the Valar were just letting him have it all.

Vercint

It is more than just greed and avarice that drives him to seek to win them back. I always felt that what drove him more than pride was a, quite justified, outrage first that Morgoth would steal the Silmarils and then, in some ways even worse, that the Valar refused to give him justice.

This is certainly true. I for one see Feanor as a somewhat villainous character but absolutely do not bedgrudge him the right to get back what was his. Certainly what was stolen was the createst creation yet made outside of ME itself. And there is to consider Morgoth's slaying of Finwe as well. He was right to be enraged and his breaking off from the Valar can be understood. I thought that whole council meeting as we read in the Silmarillion was heartbreaking.

It is what came after that was wrong on Feanor's part.

[nobodymN]

Olorin/Mithrandir/Gandalf - Was a Maiar of Lorien and he also spent time with his sister Nienna. She was supposed to have taught Olorin about pity. Also he had been known for going forth among the Children of Iluvatar sp? mainly the firstborn and appearing among them as one of them and then disappearing again but leaving those who he was with, with hope.

Unless I completely missed something(which is possible) Nienna (being of the Valar) was not Olorin's sister. Also, there is no definitive information given by Tolkien - all peripheral - that would attach Gandalf to Irmo/Lorien, although without doubt he served as counsel and for a time resifed there. I for one, think from what evidence that does exist, it seems likely point in the direction that Gandalf/Olorin was attached to Manwe himself. That said, any answer has merit with a lack of a definitive answer.

[naz]

Unless I completely missed something(which is possible) Nienna (being of the Valar) was not Olorin's sister.

I think it was meant that Nienna was Lorien's sister, which she was. Inasmuch as all the Valar were Iluvatar's children, Nienna is clearly spoken of as Irmo and Namo's sister.

Agreed with your point about Olorin being a Maia of Manwe. It pretty much says so in UT, but it also says Olorin used to wander the gardens of Lorien, which is why many seem to think he was attached to him.

[Ser Paladin]

Unless I completely missed something(which is possible) Nienna (being of the Valar) was not Olorin's sister.

I think the poster is saying that Nienna is Lorien's sister (which is correct), not Olorin's. The vague use of "his" is confusing, but that has to be the intent.

Also, there is no definitive information given by Tolkien - all peripheral - that would attach Gandalf to Irmo/Lorien, although without doubt he served as counsel and for a time resifed there. I for one, think from what evidence that does exist, it seems likely point in the direction that Gandalf/Olorin was attached to Manwe himself. That said, any answer has merit with a lack of a definitive answer.

Were Galdalf/ Olorin a maia of Manwe, then Saruman would not assume himself to be the superior Maia among the Istari. The conflict between Gandalf and Saruman is a mirror of the conflict between wisdom and knowledge. Being a follower of the Valar of Visions (Irmo) and of pity (Nienna) fits his character perfefctly.

Agreed with your point about Olorin being a Maia of Manwe. It pretty much says so in UT, but it also says Olorin used to wander the gardens of Lorien, which is why many seem to think he was attached to him.

Manwe suggests that Olorin be among the Istari, but it doesn't say that Olorin serves Manwe. In the Silmarillion, it states that Olorin dwelt in Lorien, and was a pupil of Nienna.

[nobodymN]

I'm aware of all the information on both sides of the debate (an rather old one) and it really doesn't change my mind. Where one dwells or who one may take heed of doesn't necessarily mean anything - ie. Sauron is not attached to Melkor (later he was corupted - he merely resided in the same palce and took counsel with him), he is attached to Aule (as was Saruman/Curumo). Note, we see another example just like Olorin who dwells in Lorien - Melian - who is still not attached to Irmo, but to Vana and Este.

Just like any opinion on the matter, my own reasoning for believing he is attached to Manwe is at best circumstanatial. For instance your comment here:

Manwe suggests that Olorin be among the Istari, but it doesn't say that Olorin serves Manwe. In the Silmarillion, it states that Olorin dwelt in Lorien, and was a pupil of Nienna.

The exact wording in The Istari is actually: then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin. We also relate the other Istari as attached to those who chose them (Orome/Alatar and Palando and Curumo/Aule) why not Manwe/Olorin as well ?

In no place in any text I have read does it definitively state which is correct, I just prefer the Manwe choice (as it really doesn't matter in the big picture, just something for LOTR to haggle over)

Were Galdalf/ Olorin a maia of Manwe, then Saruman would not assume himself to be the superior Maia among the Istari.

There is no reason to believe - that I can see - that the hierachy of the Maia are related to who they are attached to. Is there?

[Tears of Lys]

There's certainly a lot of similarities between the Silmarils and the Ring, and the way so many desire them is the most central. Still, I think there is an important difference in that Sauron shaped the Ring specifically to seduce and ruin people while Feanor created the Silmarils out of more complex reasons, part of which certainly was pride but also out of the joy and love of creation itself. Hence there is the difference that where one can possess the Silmarils, and everyone wants to, the Ring possess you.

In addition, I would say there is a difference in the way Feanor desires the Silmarils and the way others do. It is more than just greed and avarice that drives him to seek to win them back. I always felt that what drove him more than pride was a, quite justified, outrage first that Morgoth would steal the Silmarils and then, in some ways even worse, that the Valar refused to give him justice.

This anger is what drove him to the desperate, and sometimes rather horrible acts that began the wars of Beleriand. The fact that the Silmarils belonged to him and that he treasured them above all else because he had -- to use the modern phrase -- put so much of himself into them makes his acts somehow sympathtic, despite all the grief they caused. It also puts him far above all the others, including his sons, who desired the Silmarils.

Well, that is except for Beren and Luthien, who get off far better because they wanted the Silmarils out of love for each other and only because they needed them to make her father let them marry.

I agree with 99% of what you say. And you say it well.

The only part I quibble with, and it is a minor quibble, is that I see Sauron creating the ring not to seduce and ruin people, but to concentrate his power. The fact that so much power was in the ring was what drew lesser folk to desire it, thinking it would give them the power to achieve what they wanted to achieve. And we know how that turned out - the taint accompanying the power in the ring, either slowly (in Frodo's case) or rapidly (Gollum's) damaged the soul of the possessor.

I really like the way you describe Feanor's motivations.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

The exact wording in The Istari is actually: then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin. We also relate the other Istari as attached to those who chose them (Orome/Alatar and Palando and Curumo/Aule) why not Manwe/Olorin as well ?

Well of course he commanded, he's Manwe!

[Falagar]

Umm Ered Withrin is a north-south mountain range (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/Beleriand.jpg) facing eastwards towards the other elven lands, and slightly northward towards Angband. So yeah he is stuck on Hithlum (which was also under attack, just that himself and Fingon and their human allies repelled the assault with great loss. Hurin's grandfather among others were killed). There is like Tolkien said a sea of foes between Fingolfin's forces and his allies. And of course there is a huge amount of foes attacking Hithlum itself, as shown by Tolkien in the preceeding couple paragraphs to your quotes where they talk about the assault on Hithrim. Do you think the forces assaulting Hithrim just dissapeared? Hell no, they're still there and Fingolfin went berserk and charged through them. Of course it's true he didn't fight them, but that's because they ran in fear from him.

So unless you want to argue that Hithlum wasn't under attack by Morgoth's armies then yes Fingolfin clearly charged through forces. Of course Morgoth had forces on Anfauglith. They were assaulting Hithlum, and Tolkien makes note of both Orcs and Balrogs as part of the forces attacking there, saying neither could overcome the defensive position of the mountains combined with the great valor of the elves and humans there. Morgoth sent many armies out through the Anfauglith. There were the forces assaulting Hithlum. Other forces attacked and overcame Angrod and Aegnor in Dorthanion. As well forces attacked Tol Sirion, which Orodreth held. Also add in the forces sent further east which overrun much of the sons of Feanor's land but couldn't overcome Maedhros' forces. With so many forces being launched from Angband, there was clearly a strong force throughout the plain, both in logistics and likely reinforcements as well as reserves.

Hithlum was attacked, but as Morgoth's forces couldn't take the fortress (Eithel Sirion, which lies well suited for a trip to Angband) they turned south-eastwards, overrunning Dorthonion etc. That's why I bolded the in the flank-part - Morgoth's forces had marched on, perhaps leaving a small watch behind to make sure there wouldn't be any surprises from Eithel Sirion - but "the sea of foes" is now covering the lands between Hithlum and the remaining Noldorin princes, not between Eithel Sirion and Angband (there being no point in spending forces there, and if the fortress really was besieged it would be hard to get a message through). The passage says "all that beheld his onset", not "the armies of Morgoth", "sea of orcs" or similar. It seems pretty clear (though the text is a bit ambigious) that they had marched on, why else would Hithlum be counted as "a threat upon the flank of Morgoth's attack"?

Plus the line that he got on his horse, rode forth alone and none could restrain him points to the people trying to restrain him were the enemy, because well he'd already rode forth alone.

I doubt the people trying to restrain him were the enemy, but rather friends not wishing him to throw away his life in a hopeless fight against Morgoth. Orcs would probably do much more than just restraining...

I think that is a misread. It is pretty clear in Sil that the Valar had already begun to plan out what they were going to do in responce. It is clear that their first stroke was to create the Sun and the Moon. It is also clear that they were holding back because they didn't know where the 2nd born would arise at. They had originaly held back on attacking Utumno for the same reason because they didn't know where the elves would arise at. Also we don't what the Valar would have done had the Noldor not gotten in the way. The Valar never denied Feanor justice they simply asked that he not act rashly.

Still, it also seems pretty clear that the elves of Beleriand had been pretty lost without the Noldor, and that the Valar weren't exactly rushing in to save the day (leading to Ulmo becoming dissatisfied with the rest):

The Valar sat now behind their mountains at peace; and having given light to Middle-earth they left it for long untended, and the lordship of Morgoth was uncontested save by the valour of the Noldor. Most in mind Ulmo kept the exiles, who gathered news of the Earth through all the waters.

Evil indeed were the tidings that came at last to Angband, and Morgoth was dismayed. Ten days that battle lasted, and from it returned of all the hosts that he had prepared for the conquest of Beleriand no more than a handful of leaves.

Can't see how e.g. Círdan (besieged in the Falas) would have survived; the Sindar of Beleriand (and thus also men and probably the Silvan) were pretty much doomed without the returning Noldor.

Look at it this way when the Valar finally attacked the host was made up of the Noldor who had stayed behind, the Vanyar, the survivors of the Edain, the Maiar, and Earendil and the Eagles of Manwe. And yet there is at least in Sil no mention of any of the Valar being directly involved and still most of Belariand gets sunk and the Ered Luin gets split in two and some rivers change course. If Feanor gets his way the Valar would have launched an unplanned frontal assault on Angband without restoring light to the world or knowing where mankind is due to arise.

True, but they could have done it much earlier instead of waiting 500 years (of the sun, quite a lot more in human years, iirc). To quote Tolkien from Morgoth's Ring:

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm

Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it.

Though Fëanor's actions were rash, I think it's clear that the Valar should have followed his advise on acting decisively sooner.

[Altherion]

I think that is a misread. It is pretty clear in Sil that the Valar had already begun to plan out what they were going to do in responce. It is clear that their first stroke was to create the Sun and the Moon. It is also clear that they were holding back because they didn't know where the 2nd born would arise at. They had originaly held back on attacking Utumno for the same reason because they didn't know where the elves would arise at. Also we don't what the Valar would have done had the Noldor not gotten in the way. The Valar never denied Feanor justice they simply asked that he not act rashly.

It is not a misread; I'm aware that this is not how the Valar were intended to be seen. But they certainly don't come off as angels here. If they cared about the men enough not to risk war with Morgoth, why did they allow men to suffer for centuries as Morgoth's armies raged through Middle Earth? Because a group of elves acted rashly?

[snake]

Just a quick question. Would the Valar have acted if Earendil had not made his journey? I always thought that without his begging the valar for help that Melkor would have overrun ME.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Well the Valar had their pretty elven followers that clung to them, so what did it matter if the rest of the elves that did not like them and humans died? Ulmo was the only Valar that seemed to actually care about the plight of Middle Earth. Where was the wisdom of Manwe? Where was the pity of Nienna? Where was the might of Tulkas? What were the Valar doing that entire time in Valinor while Morgoth was subjugating the children of Eru?

[Arakasi]

Hithlum was attacked, but as Morgoth's forces couldn't take the fortress (Eithel Sirion, which lies well suited for a trip to Angband) they turned south-eastwards, overrunning Dorthonion etc. That's why I bolded the in the flank-part - Morgoth's forces had marched on, perhaps leaving a small watch behind to make sure there wouldn't be any surprises from Eithel Sirion - but "the sea of foes" is now covering the lands between Hithlum and the remaining Noldorin princes, not between Eithel Sirion and Angband (there being no point in spending forces there, and if the fortress really was besieged it would be hard to get a message through). The passage says "all that beheld his onset", not "the armies of Morgoth", "sea of orcs" or similar. It seems pretty clear (though the text is a bit ambigious) that they had marched on, why else would Hithlum be counted as "a threat upon the flank of Morgoth's attack"?

Sorry man, you're wrong. Straight from the book.

"So great was the onslaught of Morgoth that Fingolfin and Fingon could not come to the aid of the sons of Finarfin; and the hosts of Hithlum were driven back with great loss to the fortresses of Ered Withrin; and these they hardly defended against the Orcs."

There is no proof or hint that Hithlum was attacked first, then repelled by Fingolfin and then the forces moved south and overran Dorthonion. Your theory is explicity rejected by the text of the book. How could Fingolfin and Fingon attempt to come to the aid of people who had not been attacked yet? If anything the first wave of the attack came upon Dorthonion, as Angrod and Aegnor were listed as the first to fall. The reason Hithlum is a threat upon the attack is because it was about the only place to not be overrun and it's fairly far north, where most of the other places Morgoth was attacking was south. If you really want to think that contrary to written word from the book and any sane military strategy that Morgoth left no forces to besiege Hithlum and left a powerful army full of pissed of elves and humans in their rear to attack them, then go ahead.

As to the points on Ethel Sirion and the sea of foes, well for one the eagles were known to take part in some of this. After all the king of them did rescue Fingoldin's body and brought word of his death to both Gondolin and Hithlum. That might have something to do with the message getting through. It's possible Feanor's Palantari or other means of communication other than just signals being sent from Dorthonion to Tol Sirion and from there to Hithlum through riders or watchtowers with fire signals. The point is there was a massive assault that Morgoth sent. The entire plain was awash in foes, as they assaulted virtually every Noldor stronghold upon it. Hithlum was not attacked first, Dorthonion was being the closest of the places to Angband. So no it's not clear and the text clearly rejects your premise.

Edit: Also you could look at the passages that describe the flames going out all over the plains, and then the eruption of Morgoth's forces with the assault on all the forces of the Noldor. There was no assault first on Ered Withrin. It was on all the Noldor. There is also the excellent Atlas of Middle Earth that has a nice map of the battle and the distances between Angband, Dorthonion and Hithlum. It would have been implausible to attack Dorthonion by way of Hithlum. Hithlum afterall being further from Angband than Dorthonion.

[Maester Cressan]

Wasn't Gandalf associated with fire in his Maia form, or was that just because of his ring?

But yeah, I agree with the Tolkien=Luddite assertion.

That was the ring. His Maia form was associated with the air/wind if I remember correctly...

Having a one-to-one relationship between the Valar and the Maiar based on their 'element' would mean that many Valar would have NO Maiar followers wahtsoever!

Air - Manwe, ?Varda

Earth - Yavanna, ?Orome

Fire - Aule

Water - Ulmo

Just because the Balrogs were "spirits of fire" doesn't automatically mean they HAD to be followers of Aule.

Aratan

I thought it was specifically mentioned in one of the "Lost Tales" collections that the Balrogs used to be followers of Aule, and I thought in "Melkor" it explicitly says that Melkor seduced the Maiar followers from every Valar, but was particularly succesful in recruiting the followers of Aule, because they (Melkor and Aule) were "closest together in mind".

[Falagar]

Just managed to delete my post. :cry: Will reply on sunday or somesuch. Will just say that you're correct in asserting that Hithlum wasn't the first place to be assaulted, but that there still isn't any evidence (textual or implicated) of Eithel Sirion being heavily surrounded/besieged at the time Fingolfin rode north, or that Morgoth's forces were especially occupied with covering the road north or east. Indeed, Eithel Sirion is said to be a threat on the flank, and all the forces we hear about after the death of Hador are ravaging lands in the south-east

Also, when Fingolfin is described as riding forth the text gives no credit to the claim that he met or scared away a sea of enemies or similar - instead the text gives us: "all those that beheld his onset fled in amaze" - if there had been any substancial enemy presence there I would think it had been mentioned in that passage.

[Arakasi]

The passage is "He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze.."

The point is at this time well there aren't any elves on the plain and he is passing over it, so who else is Tolkien talking about here? It's been clearly stated earlier that the plain was burned, the Noldor guarding it perished or ran to the hills. I think you're having an issue with Tolkien's writing style. He doesn't like many authors list out everything multiple times, or repeat stuff to embelish it. He stated that the plains was cleared of forces and Morgoth was assaulting all the fortresses of the Noldor. You can't just say that the forces have withdrawn from it. The text says there is a sea of foes between Fingolfin and his kin. Most of his kin is east. The mountains are north south. Those forces are thus attacking Hitlhlum, as well as every other Noldor stronghold. That they've withdrawn is completely conjecture on your part and making stuff up that's not in the text. Why would Tolkien talk more about the foes on the plain? That's again not his style. I understand you have your opinion about how the battle worked out, but it's in no case supported by the text. While the text and the atlas (which is official) clearly shows that Hithlum as well as the rest of the Noldor strongholds are under attack.

[Arataniello]

That was the ring. His Maia form was associated with the air/wind if I remember correctly...

I thought it was specifically mentioned in one of the "Lost Tales" collections that the Balrogs used to be followers of Aule, and I thought in "Melkor" it explicitly says that Melkor seduced the Maiar followers from every Valar, but was particularly succesful in recruiting the followers of Aule, because they (Melkor and Aule) were "closest together in mind".

I don't recall anything from Book of Lost Tales, since it is an age since I read them, but it is certainly stated in Valaquenta that "Aule was most like [Melkor] in thought and in powers".

Aratan