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Were dany's hallucinations at the end of book five some form of...

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1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I think GRRM is putting her in a dilemma where she has to decide when to use power and when to hold back. That's going to be very tough for Dany in the treacherous world of politics. She might not always make the right call in this regard. Also, GRRM might want her to be someone who has the power to destroy, rather than build. "Dragons plant no seeds." And in the same chapter, a hat she tries to make falls apart. Winning wars is easy for Dany (even without the dragons), but ruling is a whole new ballgame for her. She's more Aegon the Conqueror than Jeharys the Conciliator, even though she clearly wants to be the latter. I think making mistakes early on is great for character building. But I do hope she learns and becomes a better ruler, rather than ending up a tyrant or something. 

The hat making/unmaking is a nice analogy. Yeah, I see her being nudged all the way to one side if I'm honest. Or, a darker shade of grey. I can still feel the frustration of those Meereen chapters to this day. Dany had no idea what to do there and I think her chained dragons were symbolic of her situation. She seemed more helpless than ever before. There are others on Planetos that could serve as the second and third head of the dragon. Much like Aegon before her, she needs others to complete the magic number. That is to say, being a conqueror isn't enough. Aegon conquered, but it was Visenya who was rumoured to have sorcerer abilities. And by the sounds of it, Rhaenys was the most loved of the three. Dany, in Mereen was trying to be all three people. I think.  Hizdar simply can't be one of the three heads. And I refuse to believe that Daario is anyone other than who he appears to be. 

 

2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I know right! She keeps telling Dany to remember who she is as if she doesn't already know. So Dany could be more than what she appears to be. Contrast this with Bran. There's a line where Jojen tells Bran to "remember who he is." The exact same line. We know Bran is going to become the three-eyed crow, but what is Dany? The Undying tell Dany that they have been waiting for her for a 1,000 years. It seems like Dany is more than just a Targ royal. There's obviously prophecy and magic attached to her that points toward something mystical and mysterious. 

You are right in that we don't know Quaithe's intentions yet. But GRRM has said that he wants his characters to make decisions of their own volition, so I think we can rule out Dany being mind controlled. She could be just telling what she sees in the fires, like Mel does. Quaithe herself may not understand what the symbols or the visions mean. 


Yep. It seems that Dany brought magic into the world again. Or increased it somehow. I guess she really did "wake the dragon," as Viscerys would put it. Quaithe asking her to remember who she is is very cryptic imo. A lot of Dany's ambitions seem to be Viscerys' ambitions. Quaithe tells 
Dany that to go forward, she must go back. Go west to go east etc. I think this is an attempt to get her to retrace her steps. Why was she in Meereen? Why was she in Qarth? Why the Dothraki Sea? And before that? Some people want her to be a conqueror. Some want her to be a saviour. She does have a lot of power. She needs to know once and for all how to wield it. This will be answered by discovering what it is she wanted in the first place. In her first chapter, she tells Viscerys she wants to 'go home'. This angers Viscerys, as he thinks she means Westeros. Only, she didn't mean Westeros. She meant their room. Or maybe somewhere else they'd stayed along the way. I've always found it passing strange that George gleams over Dany's early life when it was so clearly full to the brim with relevant information. I think the truth of her character is tangled up in her past. And that's what Quaithe is pointing at. 
 
As for Bran. This kid literally leaves his physical body behind to exist inside of others. His wolf is faster and more able than he is. And Hodor provides an excellent meat puppet for exploration. I think Jojen is cautioning Bran, not to forget. As Bran will one day have to leave his body behind regularly. Where-as Quaithe is asking Dany to literally 'go back'. As in, she's already forgotten/missed something. Something that would guide her steps forevermore. George keeps it pretty ambiguous, but the parallels are there between them because they are probably our Fire and Ice in the story. Tying into the above paragraph, unlike Dany, we have a neat story about Bran's childhood. Being brief, we know Bran liked to climb. He liked feeding crows. When he was sent to the Godswood to cleanse himself of this dangerous hobby, he was found sleeping in the branches of a ww tree. The boy's history paints a picture of his future. If we knew more about Dany's past. maybe we could understand her better?

I agree that there is no mind control, Dany has a will of her own. We're five books into the series and I think it's self-evident that she's making her own decisions by way of her inner monologue.  She's conflicted, like most other characters. The big difference being that Dany controls the fate of millions. Who she becomes will change the world around her. She doesn't have the luxury of choosing who she wants to be. She has to be what she is and no more. And yeah, I'm gonna guess that she's the conqueror. The one to knock down the pins, so to speak. And not the one who sets them back up again. 

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1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Dany, in Mereen was trying to be all three people. I think.  Hizdar simply can't be one of the three heads. And I refuse to believe that Daario is anyone other than who he appears to be. 

Dany's chapters in Meereen were frustrating, right. I thought this was GRRM trying to show "Aragorn's tax policy," as in show the difficulty of ruling.  For Aegon, it wasn't this hard because he wasn't building something from scratch. He didn't have to revamp the economy of Westeros like Dany now has to. And all three ruled together too. Visenya seem to have taken care of security while Rhaenys listened to the smallfolk and promoted arts and stuff. I'm not sure though; GRRM might have gone overboard with Dany's arc. 

1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Quaithe tells 
Dany that to go forward, she must go back. Go west to go east etc. I think this is an attempt to get her to retrace her steps. Why was she in Meereen? Why was she in Qarth? Why the Dothraki Sea? And before that? Some people want her to be a conqueror. Some want her to be a saviour. She does have a lot of power.

I think Quaithe is trying to get Dany to go to Westeros. Going back may refer to characters confronting their own pasts and also confronting the past of the world. For Dany, there's the lemon tree gate. For Bran, some people say he's like Brandon the Builder come again. 

Quaithe may believe that Dany is Nissa Nissa. Mel thinks Stannis is AA, which we know isn't true. And Moqorro and his clan thinks AA is Dany. But there are strong signs Jon is AA, given that there's a vision of him holding a literal red sword. Out of the three, Quaithe might be the one to get it right. She wants her to go to Westeros, meet Jon, and become his sacrificial bride. The bride of fire and the third treason. Her spirit--powerful as it is--ends up powering the Lightbringer. So she would be a conqueror and a savior. Her conquering power goes into the Lightbringer and it ends up saving the world? That is, if the prophesy is right.

It could also be that Dany is something else entirely. As you said, this theory that Dany represents the fire side while Bran represents the ice side. The "song" of ice and fire. Maybe they are human vessels of warring gods? 

1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

If we knew more about Dany's past. maybe we could understand her better?

With Bran we know he's a rare greenseer, ready to take on the wooden throne of the otherwordly three eyed crow. But with Dany and her lemon tree house in Braavos, it really is a big question mark. I mean, why should we believe she is anything other than a Targ princess? Like Bran, Dany's childhood is pretty brief. But I remember a part where Quaithe saying remember who you were "made to be." Then that dragons know something that Dany doesn't. Maybe Dany has a mysterious birth? We know Aerys liked to burn things, and that made him actually aroused to the point he would then go rape his wife. Maybe Dany was made as a result of these burning rituals and somehow has a special magic thing going for her that even she doesn't know? Even so, why would that matter given that Dany already has a lot going for her? Maybe this is something GRRM has yet to drop stronger hints on. 

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22 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Dany's chapters in Meereen were frustrating, right. I thought this was GRRM trying to show "Aragorn's tax policy," as in show the difficulty of ruling.  For Aegon, it wasn't this hard because he wasn't building something from scratch. He didn't have to revamp the economy of Westeros like Dany now has to. And all three ruled together too. Visenya seem to have taken care of security while Rhaenys listened to the smallfolk and promoted arts and stuff. I'm not sure though; GRRM might have gone overboard with Dany's arc. 

That's a good point. I suppose another big difference was that Westeros (a big part of it) was under the rule of Harren the Black which may of made Aegon and co a more welcome sight. 

 

22 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I think Quaithe is trying to get Dany to go to Westeros. Going back may refer to characters confronting their own pasts and also confronting the past of the world. For Dany, there's the lemon tree gate. For Bran, some people say he's like Brandon the Builder come again. 


I too think that Quaithe wants Dany to go to Westeros. I just think that she needs to go somewhere else first. So that when she does arrive at Westeros, she knows herself and her actual goal a little better. I strongly believe she has lost or is yet to discover a part of herself or her past. 

 

22 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

 Quaithe may believe that Dany is Nissa Nissa. Mel thinks Stannis is AA, which we know isn't true. And Moqorro and his clan thinks AA is Dany. But there are strong signs Jon is AA, given that there's a vision of him holding a literal red sword. Out of the three, Quaithe might be the one to get it right. She wants her to go to Westeros, meet Jon, and become his sacrificial bride. The bride of fire and the third treason. Her spirit--powerful as it is--ends up powering the Lightbringer. So she would be a conqueror and a savior. Her conquering power goes into the Lightbringer and it ends up saving the world? That is, if the prophesy is right.

It could also be that Dany is something else entirely. As you said, this theory that Dany represents the fire side while Bran represents the ice side. The "song" of ice and fire. Maybe they are human vessels of warring gods? 


I think Mel is trying to create AA. And I'm quietly confident that Stannis has ceased to believe in it. Which leads me to believe that many and more people will project things onto Dany in some desperate hope that she can save them. A bit like the way Sam decides all by himself that Jon should be LC. I don't think it's difficult to understand Sam's motivation here. But it seems like a selfish thing to do considering Jon wasn't particularly bothered. And like I said, Mel wants Stannis to be AA. And so it is projected onto him. Moqorro wants Dany to be AA. And so forth... I don't think anybody is actually AA. I think the past moulds the future inside peoples minds. And thus, history repeats. Unless Dany can 'break the wheel' for real.

I like the idea that Dany is none of these things and as you've suggested, is in-fact something else entirely. I can see how Dany's blood or conception may be the magical ingredient for LB; the only way to fuse fire into a sword. But whenever I try to picture it, I wonder how much use ONE good sword against the 'others' will actually be. We don't know for sure what the 'Others' actually want. It seems a bit one-dimensional of them to simply want to kill people just to res them for no reason. 

 

23 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

With Bran we know he's a rare greenseer, ready to take on the wooden throne of the otherwordly three eyed crow. But with Dany and her lemon tree house in Braavos, it really is a big question mark. I mean, why should we believe she is anything other than a Targ princess? Like Bran, Dany's childhood is pretty brief. But I remember a part where Quaithe saying remember who you were "made to be." Then that dragons know something that Dany doesn't. Maybe Dany has a mysterious birth? We know Aerys liked to burn things, and that made him actually aroused to the point he would then go rape his wife. Maybe Dany was made as a result of these burning rituals and somehow has a special magic thing going for her that even she doesn't know? Even so, why would that matter given that Dany already has a lot going for her? Maybe this is something GRRM has yet to drop stronger hints on. 

I've never actually considered this. The'Mad King' may not of been as 'mad' as we think. There's every chance that BR is and has been communicating with a lot of people ever since he was bound to the tree...
Dany doesn't merely wake dragons, she bringing magic into the whole world again. Her conception may of been part of an old Valyrain ritual that the Andals would never of understood considering the differences in their culture. The Andals seem to be a race of people void of magic. Unlike the First Men and Valyrians. Plus, her miraculous survival from the pyre she stepped into points at something beyond known Targaryen abilities. This is a good time to contemplate the tragedy at Summerhall. 

The old stories we have of Valyria paint a rather ghastly picture. One would imagine that their magic came at a horrific price. The Targaryen banner shows one dragon with three heads. So perhaps the perfect Targaryen is actually three people in one? Not that i have a frigging clue how that's possible. 

What I would give for five minutes alone with Quaithe, lol. 
 

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On 5/30/2019 at 10:20 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I think GRRM is putting her in a dilemma where she has to decide when to use power and when to hold back. That's going to be very tough for Dany in the treacherous world of politics. She might not always make the right call in this regard. Also, GRRM might want her to be someone who has the power to destroy, rather than build. "Dragons plant no seeds." And in the same chapter, a hat she tries to make falls apart. Winning wars is easy for Dany (even without the dragons), but ruling is a whole new ballgame for her. She's more Aegon the Conqueror than Jeharys the Conciliator, even though she clearly wants to be the latter. I think making mistakes early on is great for character building. But I do hope she learns and becomes a better ruler, rather than ending up a tyrant or something. 

I know right! She keeps telling Dany to remember who she is as if she doesn't already know. So Dany could be more than what she appears to be. Contrast this with Bran. There's a line where Jojen tells Bran to "remember who he is." The exact same line. We know Bran is going to become the three-eyed crow, but what is Dany? The Undying tell Dany that they have been waiting for her for a 1,000 years. It seems like Dany is more than just a Targ royal. There's obviously prophecy and magic attached to her that points toward something mystical and mysterious. 

You are right in that we don't know Quaithe's intentions yet. But GRRM has said that he wants his characters to make decisions of their own volition, so I think we can rule out Dany being mind controlled. She could be just telling what she sees in the fires, like Mel does. Quaithe herself may not understand what the symbols or the visions mean. 

When she returns to Mereen, wins the battle, but the pale mare rages on, I doubt she will keep trying to save the sick. She will have the choice to do so or burn them all.

Edited by NonoNono

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On 5/31/2019 at 11:50 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I suppose another big difference was that Westeros (a big part of it) was under the rule of Harren the Black which may of made Aegon and co a more welcome sight. 

:rofl: Ikr! I remember in WoIAF, during one of Aegon's coronations, the people who cheered the hardest are the smallfolk. So despite the burnings, they definitely welcomed a king who could put a stop to all the civil wars that occurred in Westeros before Conquest. Considering people wanted Rhaegar to be king anyway, when (most likely) fAegon comes to Westeros first, people would welcome the new dragon. This time Dorne would join the party too. 

On 5/31/2019 at 11:50 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I too think that Quaithe wants Dany to go to Westeros. I just think that she needs to go somewhere else first. So that when she does arrive at Westeros, she knows herself and her actual goal a little better. I strongly believe she has lost or is yet to discover a part of herself or her past. 

Yup yup. I think like Bran, she has to learn what her magical powers are. Maybe Quaithe is Dany's version of the 3eyed crow? (Unless she is evil, like how 3ER is suspected of being evil). 

On 5/31/2019 at 11:50 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Which leads me to believe that many and more people will project things onto Dany in some desperate hope that she can save them.

I can see people supporting different parties whom they think is AA. I can see why you think AA isn't anybody. The story we learn about is a legend, not an actual prophesy, a la Stallion Who Mounts the World. AA could very well have been Rhaegar. It's possible AA and PtwP are two different people. In any case, Lightbringer was already forged, so the new hero might not need to re-forge it with a sacrificial ritual.

My personal take is that AA is real, and might have to come again (like the dragons returning), but Dani is not necessarily Nissa Nissa. I think to end the long night, the new heroes need to break the cycle of ritual sacrifice. And to do that they would have to learn everything about what happened in the past, going all the way back to what brought on the first long night and what made the seasons in the world go all wonky. I think the "truth" Quaithe wants Dany to know is that, so that she can fight off the WW for good. (There's also this rather tinfoil-y time loop theory, which would mean that the person who becomes the AA in the books now is the same one who ends up in the legends of the past. So one AA, not two.)

On 5/31/2019 at 11:50 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

But whenever I try to picture it, I wonder how much use ONE good sword against the 'others' will actually be. We don't know for sure what the 'Others' actually want. It seems a bit one-dimensional of them to simply want to kill people just to res them for no reason. 

I know. A lot of people have been talking about how just one sword, even a magical one, could destroy the Others. The heroes already have dragonglass and dragonfire that is highly effective against the Others and wights. So why the sword?

It's possible that the WW have one center of power that needs to be destroyed, as represented by the NK in the show (I'm not saying the same character appears in the books). Remember the throbbing blue heart in the House of the Undying? When Drogon ripped it and burnt it, all of the Undying died and their house imploded. So maybe there's a Heart of Winter like that, which AA needs to plunge his red sword into. 

The books say the Others hate all warm-blooded things. And they trap the spirits of the damned or something. They want to kill all living things, not just people. The reason might be the war between all these gods. Obviously, we have yet to learn about the dynamics at play here. GRRM leaves strong hints about otherwordly influences, magic and all that in AWOIAF, especially in the Bloodstone emperor saga. Maybe the warmbloods have invaded a cold territory (unknowingly of course)? Broken a sacred pact (also unknowingly because they have forgotten their own history)?

On 5/31/2019 at 11:50 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I've never actually considered this. The'Mad King' may not of been as 'mad' as we think. There's every chance that BR is and has been communicating with a lot of people ever since he was bound to the tree...

He was really mad, wasn't he? Not in the beginning, but in later years he becomes paranoid. It's probably the prophetic dreams he has. Not all Targs can handle the visions they see in their dreams. In GoT, Dany is terrified after dreaming of dragons. So it makes sense that that getting bombarded with visions of things getting burned in the past or the future would drive someone mad. Wasn't there a Targ prince in the Hedge Knight novels who experienced similar things?

The Targs in Westeros have forgotten their Valyrian roots and don't seem to know much about their own magics. So if the dreams are powerful, vivid, and repetitive, I think it makes perfect sense that it would drive someone mad. Aerys may have seen the Others or the wights coming, hence his obsession with burning (in GoT, even Jon goes "please just let it burn" at the wight). He may have seen a vision of Jaime's betrayal, and knowing that someone was going to betray him but not exactly who or when, could have made him clinically paranoid. Foresight brings its own burdens. Dany experiences this in ADwD, thinking over and over about the betrayals in the future (after her truly terrible experience with the first). However, unlike with Aerys, Dany's own visions aren't driving her mad. 

On 5/31/2019 at 11:50 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Dany doesn't merely wake dragons, she bringing magic into the whole world again. Her conception may of been part of an old Valyrain ritual that the Andals would never of understood considering the differences in their culture. The Andals seem to be a race of people void of magic. Unlike the First Men and Valyrians. Plus, her miraculous survival from the pyre she stepped into points at something beyond known Targaryen abilities. This is a good time to contemplate the tragedy at Summerhall. 

Yea, Dany somehow manages to break the dry spell for magic in the world. The magic returns with her dragons, strongly indicating that the magic that humans use is pretty much all fire magic. 

And Dany seemingly performs her ritual with innate knowledge. In Mel's chapter in ADWD, she thinks about "reading" the flames and how it's an "art" that requires great skill and practice, Yet, in the last chapter of GoT, Dany "reads" the flames rather effortlessly, equivalent of a natural born art prodigy. She can easily spot the images in the flames, like Khal Drogo riding into the nightlands. I thought Dany was just seeing things (like seeing shapes in the clouds), but after a re-read of Mel's chapter, that might not be the case. Dany might be a natural flame reader with a strong affinity to magic. She sees the shapes in the tent too when Mirri Maz Durr does her ritual, but everyone around her thinks she's just feverish and mad in her condition. 

And it's a good point about Summerhall. Aegon IV and perhaps others have tried to perform the ritual that Dany did. It's most likely that Egg was unable to make the sacrifices needed to complete the ritual. Either he was unwilling, or didn't really understand what was required of him. Some people have been saying that Euron, too, is trying to recreate the ritual Dany did in the TWoW chapter GRRM released. He makes a bunch of sacrifices, including his pregnant "wife." He might be trying to raise krakens or sea monsters of legend, rather than dragons. Ironically, it's probably a ritual he could never perform despite all his magical learning because he doesn't truly love any of the things he's killing. 

Andals may not have magic, but they do have the Seven. It's pretty interesting that so far the Seven are the only gods seemingly without magic. But they definitely play a bigger role in this. The line "seven against three" in Ned's dream stands out. Also, Jon goes "seven against one" in GoT too. 

On 5/31/2019 at 11:50 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

One would imagine that their magic came at a horrific price. The Targaryen banner shows one dragon with three heads. So perhaps the perfect Targaryen is actually three people in one?

The three-headed dragon may refer to Trios, a god mentioned only in passing in one of Arya's Braavos chapters. The phrase goes "the dragon has three heads." My pet theory is that this refers to how dragons are made and controlled. One head is the dragon's actual head, the other the head of the rider, and the third is of the sacrifice that goes into magically making the dragon. It's the smallfolk who think that the three-headed dragon refers to Aegon and his three sisters. But there is a hidden meaning here, like with the phrase "fire and blood."

On 6/1/2019 at 1:23 AM, NonoNono said:

When she returns to Mereen, wins the battle, but the pale mare rages on, I doubt she will keep trying to save the sick. She will have the choice to do so or burn them all.

Isn't Dany is sick with the Pale Mare too? You are right, I think she would have to burn the dying to stop the disease from spreading. The disease may not have a cure. but they might figure out how to prevent it from spreading (personal hygiene), because Dany observes the Unsullied, who actually wash themselves, are not getting sick as rapidly as the others. 

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4 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

:rofl: Ikr! I remember in WoIAF, during one of Aegon's coronations, the people who cheered the hardest are the smallfolk. So despite the burnings, they definitely welcomed a king who could put a stop to all the civil wars that occurred in Westeros before Conquest. Considering people wanted Rhaegar to be king anyway, when (most likely) fAegon comes to Westeros first, people would welcome the new dragon. This time Dorne would join the party too. 

I don't know... Dany has technically already met Dorne through Quentyn.... I'm still scratching my head over Dorne. Arianne's know's that there are two Targs who will be looking for an alliance. One's fake, the other is semi-responsible for her brother's death. She's unaware of both of these facts. Yet, there's little evidence that the woman feels any kinship towards her brother. I'm going by memory, but it feels like she was partially relieved that her brother wasn't going to be a threat to her claim to Dorne. When I consider that FAegon has already shown himself to be manipulated (by Tyrion) and Arianne is both attracted to pretty boys and can seduce proud members of the KG and already had aspirations to 'play the game' herself. I think she may wind-up bewitching (for lack of a better term) FAegon and trying to become Queen. I struggle to see her in favour of Dany. At all. As princess of Dorne, she'll need to explain why she's so cool about her brother going up in flames. As queen, Dany will be a rival. Only the gods know what Doran is up to. I often wonder if Doran knows the real puppet master's of Westeros. And it is they who he ultimately wants to bring down. I mean, Robert, Tywin and the Mounatin are dead. Does he really need to hold out for Cersei and Jaime too? Cersei wasn't even in KL when it happened. Nor were her children, obvs. 

 

5 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

 I can see people supporting different parties whom they think is AA. I can see why you think AA isn't anybody. The story we learn about is a legend, not an actual prophesy, a la Stallion Who Mounts the World. AA could very well have been Rhaegar. It's possible AA and PtwP are two different people. In any case, Lightbringer was already forged, so the new hero might not need to re-forge it with a sacrificial ritual.

My personal take is that AA is real, and might have to come again (like the dragons returning), but Dani is not necessarily Nissa Nissa. I think to end the long night, the new heroes need to break the cycle of ritual sacrifice. And to do that they would have to learn everything about what happened in the past, going all the way back to what brought on the first long night and what made the seasons in the world go all wonky. I think the "truth" Quaithe wants Dany to know is that, so that she can fight off the WW for good. (There's also this rather tinfoil-y time loop theory, which would mean that the person who becomes the AA in the books now is the same one who ends up in the legends of the past. So one AA, not two.) 

I think he was someone, once. But there was nothing special about him. It was the sword and the sacrifice that seemed to me to be the most prevalent pieces of information. So I think the man himself is a bit of a red herring. I think Dany is lightbringer. I think Jon is the shield that guards the realms of men. Which is very ambiguous but both were born from a woman who didn't live long after their conception. We see swords being compared to penises. We hear of Nissa Nissa's mixture of agony and ecstasy. We see Lyanna and Rhaella dying almost sacrificially after child birth. It's been going round and I sort of see the logic in there. And I can't think for the life of me why GRRM would include Barbery Dustin's story of Brandon's bloody penis unless we're suppose to make that connection.  Not my theory. But one that's stayed with me. 

I definitely agree about the end of the ritual sacrifice. There was a time when I thought that producing a sacrifice would be the answer. But it seems as if that was the cause. Bran's vision of what could of been THE sacrifice is ominous as we have nothing to compare it to. White hair... a bronze sickle.... A bronze weapon must mean it happened a  l o n g  time ago. The cotf don't use metal. And I don't think they have white hair. So we must of seen humans sacrificing to the tree. I'm not sure these tree's are or even could be a force for good. They appear to be the thing that wants a sacrifice to begin with. 

 

5 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I know. A lot of people have been talking about how just one sword, even a magical one, could destroy the Others. The heroes already have dragonglass and dragonfire that is highly effective against the Others and wights. So why the sword?

It's possible that the WW have one center of power that needs to be destroyed, as represented by the NK in the show (I'm not saying the same character appears in the books). Remember the throbbing blue heart in the House of the Undying? When Drogon ripped it and burnt it, all of the Undying died and their house imploded. So maybe there's a Heart of Winter like that, which AA needs to plunge his red sword into. 

The books say the Others hate all warm-blooded things. And they trap the spirits of the damned or something. They want to kill all living things, not just people. The reason might be the war between all these gods. Obviously, we have yet to learn about the dynamics at play here. GRRM leaves strong hints about otherwordly influences, magic and all that in AWOIAF, especially in the Bloodstone emperor saga. Maybe the warmbloods have invaded a cold territory (unknowingly of course)? Broken a sacred pact (also unknowingly because they have forgotten their own history)?

I fear you may be right about there being a centre of power. I don't really enjoy the idea but if the undying are undone in this way then we can speculate the other undying creatures in Westeros work much the same way. And why would George show us that? He could of just shown Dany burning whoever was before her. He chose to demonstrate a way of bringing down a bunch of undead things by striking the heart. It's worth noting that the warlocks persist. Unless Euron got the last ones. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

He was really mad, wasn't he? Not in the beginning, but in later years he becomes paranoid. It's probably the prophetic dreams he has. Not all Targs can handle the visions they see in their dreams. In GoT, Dany is terrified after dreaming of dragons. So it makes sense that that getting bombarded with visions of things getting burned in the past or the future would drive someone mad. Wasn't there a Targ prince in the Hedge Knight novels who experienced similar things?

The Targs in Westeros have forgotten their Valyrian roots and don't seem to know much about their own magics. So if the dreams are powerful, vivid, and repetitive, I think it makes perfect sense that it would drive someone mad. Aerys may have seen the Others or the wights coming, hence his obsession with burning (in GoT, even Jon goes "please just let it burn" at the wight). He may have seen a vision of Jaime's betrayal, and knowing that someone was going to betray him but not exactly who or when, could have made him clinically paranoid. Foresight brings its own burdens. Dany experiences this in ADwD, thinking over and over about the betrayals in the future (after her truly terrible experience with the first). However, unlike with Aerys, Dany's own visions aren't driving her mad. 

Well... If his method of procreation, though horrific, brought about some kind of magical child and his desire to burn the KL was inspired by visions of the LN, was he truly mad? Or was he the only one who could see what no one else could? He was a total berk to begin with. And his exploits in later life are just downright bizarre. But they exist inside of a story which includes magical blood sacrifices. I can't say for certain what actually qualifies as mad. 

I'm willing to bet that a lifetime of visions will drive anyone crazy. That is, unless they discover their meaning. If the state of the WW caves mean anything, it looks like a LOT of creatures and people have been lured to it for a long time. So is it always calling out to people? I think Dany will be plagued by visions until she does what it wants. Same as Bran with the WW. 

 

6 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

And it's a good point about Summerhall. Aegon IV and perhaps others have tried to perform the ritual that Dany did. It's most likely that Egg was unable to make the sacrifices needed to complete the ritual. Either he was unwilling, or didn't really understand what was required of him. Some people have been saying that Euron, too, is trying to recreate the ritual Dany did in the TWoW chapter GRRM released. He makes a bunch of sacrifices, including his pregnant "wife." He might be trying to raise krakens or sea monsters of legend, rather than dragons. Ironically, it's probably a ritual he could never perform despite all his magical learning because he doesn't truly love any of the things he's killing. 

Andals may not have magic, but they do have the Seven. It's pretty interesting that so far the Seven are the only gods seemingly without magic. But they definitely play a bigger role in this. The line "seven against three" in Ned's dream stands out. Also, Jon goes "seven against one" in GoT too. 

 

 

 It just has to be what Egg and co were intending. I can't say what was wrong but the only difference I know of is Dany herself. Dany definitely glimpsed something in the flames that informed her of....something. 

You're right about Euron. The man can't sacrifice anything because he doesn't appear to value anything. I hope we get to witness his plans backfiring due to this. He thinks he's such a badass when he's actually just a sociopath.

I think the Andals are just plain old vanilla. Just my opinion. I think they're in the story to break up all the magical stuff. They sort of muddy the water, so to speak. Their over bearing presence and domination in Westeros  is what casts a big shadow on the true history of the FM, the Valyrains etc. They're very good at manipulating information and discrediting other cultures as silly. Tyrion demonstrates this on his first visit to the wall. And the way Alliser Thorne was received in KL wasn't too much of a surprise as the Andals simply don't believe any of it. I think the Andals are the reason nobody remembers or knows wtf is going on. 

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