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snow is the man

Were dany's hallucinations at the end of book five some form of...

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Were they a sort of "spirit quest". Yeah she is sick and running a fever but she seems to be finding out who she is from characters from her past and such.  I was thinking of this when wondering if she is going mad or not. I know they are just fever dreams but I think it will make her realize who she really is and help fight some of the doubt. I may be wrong but what does everyone else think. Was this a "spirit quest" type journey. Or will it end up meaning nothing.

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I'm not sure if they were necessarily hallucinations. She is delirious because she is sick. But there are other stuff like Quaithe's voice, and all those stars she keeps seeing, the "whispering" grass, that kind of seem like prophetic hints. I don't think we can say it's a "spirit quest" because she doesn't willingly go on it. More like fever dream. But remember, Dany's fever dreams are magical/prophetic in nature. In Book 1, after she miscarries, she gets a fever and starts dreaming very tell-tale dreams. 

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I think it will have a major impact on her going forward.

"It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

ADWD: Daenerys X

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In a weird way, yes. I don't think anyone was transmitting those thoughts at her ala BloodRaven. I think there was a lot of truth buried deep inside of her mind and her weakened state allowed some of these thought to come to the fore.  She has to decide who she is. 

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On 5/21/2019 at 11:20 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I think there was a lot of truth buried deep inside of her mind and her weakened state allowed some of these thought to come to the fore.  She has to decide who she is. 

This is a great point! I think she's finally realizing that she has power. In Meereen, she wishes to make things right, but only just ends up placating the horrible nobles there. What she wants to do never gets done. One of the biggest deals was her locking up her dragons. Yes, they are dangerous but Dany doesn't realize she can control the dragons to her will. I think Quaithe and perhaps Dany's inner voice is telling her that she is a dragon, not a powerless naked little girl on top of a pyramid as the Yunkai mocked her to be. 

It's like Quaithe or some power really wants her to deliver fire and blood--something she has specifically been unwilling to do in Slaver's Bay. 

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On 5/17/2019 at 7:44 PM, snow is the man said:

Were they a sort of "spirit quest". Yeah she is sick and running a fever but she seems to be finding out who she is from characters from her past and such.  I was thinking of this when wondering if she is going mad or not. I know they are just fever dreams but I think it will make her realize who she really is and help fight some of the doubt. I may be wrong but what does everyone else think. Was this a "spirit quest" type journey. Or will it end up meaning nothing.

Would you say the same about Ned's dream of the tower of joy?  It's the same thing.  They were both under the influence of powerful drugs.  Ned was injured and Daenerys was ill.  It's a fever dream made more bizarre by the effects of the drugs.  It's a mind trip.  

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22 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Would you say the same about Ned's dream of the tower of joy?  It's the same thing.  They were both under the influence of powerful drugs.  Ned was injured and Daenerys was ill.  It's a fever dream made more bizarre by the effects of the drugs.  It's a mind trip.  

true. I was just wondering if it was what GRRM meant by it. I mean she was hallucinating,half naked, and walking through the wilderness. I think neds was more of a "dream" that was altered by the drugs.

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The answer is a simple yes.

The visions or whatever one wants to call them when a character talks to imaginary characters (or perhaps a real magically appearing Quaithe) is just a literary exposition method. In this case it was to bring Dany to a mindset of planting no trees, fire and blood. At least one person wrote an essay about it that you could probably find if you care to.

What I find far more interesting to discuss is where this is leading her. Put in place a fire and blood Dany for the one who attempted to balance the line between the cultural norms of Meereen with her own desires, then change Meereen to Westeros. What you get is a Dany who disregards the wishes of the Lords (Westerosi masters) and the Faith (Meereen temple) and who takes a lover who personally appeals to her for a husband (Euron, the Westeros Daario), rather than one that brings her peace (A Westeros Hizdahr).

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On 5/26/2019 at 10:51 PM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

This is a great point! I think she's finally realizing that she has power. In Meereen, she wishes to make things right, but only just ends up placating the horrible nobles there. What she wants to do never gets done. One of the biggest deals was her locking up her dragons. Yes, they are dangerous but Dany doesn't realize she can control the dragons to her will. I think Quaithe and perhaps Dany's inner voice is telling her that she is a dragon, not a powerless naked little girl on top of a pyramid as the Yunkai mocked her to be. 

It's like Quaithe or some power really wants her to deliver fire and blood--something she has specifically been unwilling to do in Slaver's Bay. 

Yes, absolutely. I like to think of Mereen as a lesson for young Dany to grow from. Like so much else in life, you have to screw things up to start getting any good at it. She was suppose to conquer Mereen. She did conquer Mereen. And yet, her dragons were locked away and as you say, she was rendered as this silly little girl atop a pyramid. She had the power to rule them all but she sort of let them retake the city from beneath her. A mistake she will not make twice. And I have mixed feelings about that. 

Quaithe wants to show Dany 'the way' which is a very ambiguous thing. I don't think she's necessarily working towards Dany's happiness, but instead some kind of ancient wisdom. I get the impression that despite her progress, Dany is somewhat lost and needs to retrace her steps in-order to rediscover what it is she truly wants. We know that the birth of Dany's dragons has turned the magic in the world up to 11 so it is possible that Quaith managed to sort infect her. She touches Dany's wrist and it leaves a tingling sensation. I think it could be a kind of psychic connection, which definitely fits the authors MO. 

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Posted (edited)

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar.

She was present in Dany's fevered dream in AGOT, Dany IX. What actually happened then, is that Mirri Maz Duur, with usage of magic, had summoned Shiera and maester Marwyn into Drogo's tent, to assist her during Rhaego's birth. Rhaego was born alive, and then was stolen by Dothraki, and this was the treason for blood.

That dream was a repeat, of what had actually happened to Dany, while she was giving birth to Rhaego. At that time, she experienced events thru two separate points of view - thru her own, and thru eyes of her unborn baby, that was still inside her body. Dany saw Shiera/Quaithe as the great shadow-wings, smiling and whispering stars, ghosts in faded raiment of kings with blue and green eyes (Shiera has mismatched eyes) and swords of pale fire (that was actually a glass candle - that's how Shiera and Marwyn got into Drogo's tent, in the middle of Dothraki camp, even though, at that time physically Marwyn was in Westeros, at the Citadel, and Shiera was in Qarth).

Same method of magical "teleportation" Quaithe/Shiera had used to communicate with Dany on board of Balerion ship (in Dany's dream), on top of pyramide in Meereen (when Dany was talking with Quaithe, while being awake). And the same thing was happening in Dany's last chapter in ADWD. Part of her dream, was just a dream. But the part, where she was flying, AGAIN, and seeing and hearing whispering stars, again, is the same kind of thing, that was happening in AGOT, Dany IX. Quaithe used magic, to get into Dany's dreams. And Dany saw, that her mask is made of starlight. That's why in her dream in AGOT, Dany saw Quaithe as the whispering stars, prior Quaithe took off her cape and mask, and Dany started to see her as Viserys (because Quaithe had Valyrian-Targaryen looks), that was twisting her niples (it's a natural method of stimulating labour, makes mother's body to produce hormone oxytocin, which strengthens contractions), and ghosts that were shouting as one, because actually it was only one person.

So, those scenes from ADWD are not hallucinations. Dany's visions were caused by Quaithe's/Shiera's magic.

Edited by Megorova

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Quaithe is Shiera Seastar.

She was present in Dany's fevered dream in AGOT, Dany IX. What actually happened then, is that Mirri Maz Duur, with usage of magic, had summoned Shiera and maester Marwyn into Drogo's tent, to assist her during Rhaego's birth. Rhaego was born alive, and then was stolen by Dothraki, and this was the treason for blood.

That dream was a repeat, of what had actually happened to Dany, while she was giving birth to Rhaego. At that time, she experienced events thru two separate points of view - thru her own, and thru eyes of her unborn baby, that was still inside her body. Dany saw Shiera/Quaithe as the great shadow-wings, smiling and whispering stars, ghosts in faded raiment of kings with blue and green eyes (Shiera has mismatched eyes) and swords of pale fire (that was actually a glass candle - that's how Shiera and Marwyn got into Drogo's tent, in the middle of Dothraki camp, even though, at that time physically Marwyn was in Westeros, at the Citadel, and Shiera was in Qarth).

Same method of magical "teleportation" Quaithe/Shiera had used to communicate with Dany on board of Balerion ship (in Dany's dream), on top of pyramide in Meereen (when Dany was talking with Quaithe, while being awake). And the same thing was happening in Dany's last chapter in ADWD. Part of her dream, was just a dream. But the part, where she was flying, AGAIN, and seeing and hearing whispering stars, again, is the same kind of thing, that was happening in AGOT, Dany IX. Quaithe used magic, to get into Dany's dreams. And Dany saw, that her mask is made of starlight. That's why in her dream in AGOT, Dany saw Quaithe as the whispering stars, prior Quaithe took off her cape and mask, and Dany started to see her as Viserys (because Quaithe had Valyrian-Targaryen looks), that was twisting her niples (it's a natural method of stimulating labour, makes mother's body to produce hormone oxytocin, which strengthens contractions), and ghosts that were shouting as one, because actually it was only one person.

So, those scenes from ADWD are not hallucinations. Dany's visions were caused by Quaithe's/Shiera's magic.

How would Shiera Seastar live so long?

At least Bloodraven is hooked up to a weirwood life support system...and even then, he's clearly dying

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

How would Shiera Seastar live so long?

At least Bloodraven is hooked up to a weirwood life support system...and even then, he's clearly dying

She's like Mel, a shadowbinder of Asshai.

What Quaithe wants is for Dany to remember she is more dragon than human, for her human death and her second life in a dragon, as that's what Dany was meant to be. That's what she means when she tells Dany to remember who she truly is and that her dragons know.

Edited by chrisdaw

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Just now, chrisdaw said:

She's like Mel, a shadowbinder of Asshai.

What Quaithe wants is for Dany to remember she is more dragon than human, for her human death and her second life in a dragon, as that's what Dany was meant to be. That's what she means when she tells Dany to remember what she truly is and that her dragons know.

But we don't know how old Melisandre is, why she is hiding her true age and how she is surviving so long...

As for Quaithe? Again, why would Shiera do that?

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But we don't know how old Melisandre is, why she is hiding her true age and how she is surviving so long...

As for Quaithe? Again, why would Shiera do that?

I would assume that Mel is "hiding her true age" because walking around looking like a corpse would probably be distracting and a beautiful visage is more likely to get shit she wants done. How? Magic, she's a shadow binder. And the same would apply for Quaithe.

Why would Quaithe/Shiera play a hand in waking dragons and saving the world? The character was a curious arcane boundary pusher. It serves her interests.

Edited by chrisdaw

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7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

How would Shiera Seastar live so long?

At least Bloodraven is hooked up to a weirwood life support system...and even then, he's clearly dying

She's a user of blood magic (and her power has nothing to do with being a shadowbinder. She and Mel are totally different). And she's the most powerful magician in their world. She was teacher of Mirri Maz Duur, maester Marwyn, Euron Greyjoy, and even Bloodraven's.

In The Sworn Sword Aegon said that lady Shiera, Bloodraven's paramour, is bathing in blood, to retain her beauty. Bathing in blood not only keeps people young, it also gives them nearly eternal life (as long as they keep doing it - bathing in blood, or using other forms of magic. For example, the Undying had their Blue Heart.)

6 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

As for Quaithe? Again, why would Shiera do that?

Do what?

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

She's a user of blood magic (and her power has nothing to do with being a shadowbinder. She and Mel are totally different). And she's the most powerful magician in their world. She was teacher of Mirri Maz Duur, maester Marwyn, Euron Greyjoy, and even Bloodraven's.

In The Sworn Sword Aegon said that lady Shiera, Bloodraven's paramour, is bathing in blood, to retain her beauty. Bathing in blood not only keeps people young, it also gives them nearly eternal life (as long as they keep doing it - bathing in blood, or using other forms of magic. For example, the Undying had their Blue Heart.)

Do what?

Why would she pretend to be Quaithe?

I don't disagree with you, for the record. I think it's an interesting theory that I would have never though of....

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why would she pretend to be Quaithe?

She's not "pretending" to be Quaithe, she is Quaithe.

Shiera has left Westeros many years ago. Probably, as far back as in 269, after the Tragedy at Summerhall. Or maybe even before that, in 252, after "wedding" her ex-boyfriend to the Weirwood.

Shiera Seastar is not only Quaithe, she is also the Three-Eyed Crow. Bloodraven is not the Three-Eyed Crow. Shiera is. And she's the one, who lured him beyond The Wall, and binded him to a tree. So her story is much more complicated. She's the central figure of ASOIAF, and the great puppeteer behind the curtain.

I'm fairly certain, that Shiera's mother, Serenei of Lys, was actually Larra Rogare. So Shiera is a child, born out of incest between mother and son. Larra/Serenei was also a sorceress, and she had access to higher mysteries. Same as Shiera, she was a user of blood magic, and a shadowbinder. She left Westeros in 139, returned to Lys, in 145 faked her death, then, probably, went to Asshai, to continue her education, there became Serenei (same as Shiera became Quaithe), and later returned to King's Landing, 40 or so years after leaving her husband and her children.

It was necessary for Shiera to be a product of a parent+child incest. For her blood to be purer, for her magic potential to be higher. It's the same kind of thing, as why Craster is impregnating his own daughters, and sacrificing his sons-grandsons to the Others. Craster could have married with females, that are not bloodrelated to him, thus, there is a specific reason, why he choose to interbreed with his kin. Same reason, why Larra/Serenei seduced her son, Aegon, and even sacrificed her own life, to give birth to Shiera. Serenei didn't just died in childbirth, she sacrificed her own life, to pass her magic powers to her daughter, for Shiera to be born already with a certain level of magic abilities. Shiera is one of the key figures in the upcoming Long Night, she is as important, as the Prince that was Promised.

When she left Westeros, and came to Essos, she had to change her name, and to hide her face. It's fairly likely, that she was somehow involved in the Tragedy at Summerhall. Maybe, she was the one who caused it. So she had a reason to hide who she is. Furthermore, she was an internationally well known "celebrity". The founder of the most famous sellswords company in Essos, Bittersteel, was in love with Shiera. Her mother, who was from Lys, was the most beautiful out of King Aegon's mistresses. Shiera was the most beautiful woman of her time. Poets wrote songs about her. There's not that many characters in ASOIAF, that had mismatched eyes (Shiera, Tyrion, Euron). And that Shiera Seastar had mismatched eyes, dark blue and bright green, was world-wide known. It was even in the songs about her. And thru Golden Company, and Windblown (a lot of members are from Westeros) those songs has spread all over Free Cities and Slaver's Bay.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Shiera_Seastar

"Shiera was born with one dark blue eye and one bright green one, but the singers said that this flaw only accentuated her loveliness. She was the greatest beauty of her age, a slender and elegant woman, slim of waist and full of breast. She had the silver-gold hair of the Targaryens, thick and curling, and wore it very long. At some points in her life it fell well below her waist, almost to the back of her knees."

So to stay in Essos incognito, Shiera had to hide her mismatched eyes behind wooden mask, and her silver-gold hair under long hooded cape. And to change her name. So that's why she became Quaithe.

Or maybe a name change is something, that is required from all shadowbinders. That could be the reason why Larra became Serenei, Shiera became Quaithe, and Melony became Melisandre.

While Quaithe was living in Asshai, she met there maester Marwyn and Mirri Maz Duur, and became their teacher. That's why, when Dany had problems with Rhaego's birth, Mirri used shadow magic to summon both of her ex-teachers into Drogo's tent. And when Shiera/Quaithe, thru usage of glass candle "teleported" there, she realised, that Dany and her unborn child are two heads of the three-headed dragon from the prophecy. So she used magic to help Dany to give birth to Rhaego, and then she instructed Dany, what is necessary to be done, to hatch dragon eggs. And Shiera knows how to do it, because, it's likely, that she was either amongst those magicians, that Aegon V had summoned from Asshai, to hatch dragon eggs, or she was the one, who he had sent as an envoy to Asshai, to invite those magicians to come to Summerhall. Mirri Maz Duur has willingly sacrificed her life, for Dany to hatch her dragons. And she made Dany to believe, that her son is dead, and that her husband is as good as dead, to push Dany to the edge, to make her do what is necessary. So that passage, that after Rhaego's birth, Dany for hours was listening to whispering of stars, it was Shiera giving her instructions of what she needs to do.

And she's still keeping her real identity hiden even from Dany, because it is necessary. For now, Dany isn't consciously aware, that she had already seen Quaithe's face, because Quaithe had removed her wooden mask and her cape, when she was helping Dany with Rhaego's birth. If Dany will realise, that Quaithe was with her, when Rhaego was born, and didn't told her, that they have already met, then Dany won't do, what Quaithe wants her to do. It's impossible to manipulate people, if they realise, that they are being manipulated.

So for now, Quaithe is still going to hide from Dany who she is, and that Dany's son is actually alive. The thing is, if Dothraki didn't separated Dany from Rhaego, and didn't kidnapped him, then Dany would have never hatched her dragons, and instead would have been sent to Vaes Dothrak to join dosh khaleen. If she went there, then she would have never embraced herself, that she is the blood of the dragon. So it was a necessary evil. Something like that.

If certain elements of this theory is unclear to you, how did I figured out this or that, then you can write what part doesn't make sense to you, and I will write explanation. Because all elements of my theory are based on the text from the books. Though, obviously, some parts of my theory could be wrong. But Shiera being Quaithe, Mirri Maz Duur being her disciple, both of them assisting Dany during Rhaego's birth, and that Rhaego is alive, is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. It's too late for GRRM to change this part of the plot, he can't write around it, or rewrite it into something else, so he will bring Rhaego back into the plot, and it will happen fairly soon in the next book, because, most likely, it was Khal Pono, who took Rhaego, and it's Khal Pono, whom Dany met in the end of her last chapter in ADWD, so the circle is closing. And in Bran's next chapter, it will become evident, that Bloodraven is not the Three-Eyed Crow. In Jojen's vision the Crow was trying to free Bran, while Bloodraven and the Weirwood were trying to merge with him (stone chains that binded the winged wolf). So back in ADWD GRRM has planned a few big revelations to happen fairly soon in the beginning of TWOW.

Edited by Megorova

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On 5/28/2019 at 10:49 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

She had the power to rule them all but she sort of let them retake the city from beneath her. A mistake she will not make twice. And I have mixed feelings about that. 

I think GRRM is putting her in a dilemma where she has to decide when to use power and when to hold back. That's going to be very tough for Dany in the treacherous world of politics. She might not always make the right call in this regard. Also, GRRM might want her to be someone who has the power to destroy, rather than build. "Dragons plant no seeds." And in the same chapter, a hat she tries to make falls apart. Winning wars is easy for Dany (even without the dragons), but ruling is a whole new ballgame for her. She's more Aegon the Conqueror than Jeharys the Conciliator, even though she clearly wants to be the latter. I think making mistakes early on is great for character building. But I do hope she learns and becomes a better ruler, rather than ending up a tyrant or something. 

On 5/28/2019 at 10:49 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Quaithe wants to show Dany 'the way' which is a very ambiguous thing. I don't think she's necessarily working towards Dany's happiness, but instead some kind of ancient wisdom.

I know right! She keeps telling Dany to remember who she is as if she doesn't already know. So Dany could be more than what she appears to be. Contrast this with Bran. There's a line where Jojen tells Bran to "remember who he is." The exact same line. We know Bran is going to become the three-eyed crow, but what is Dany? The Undying tell Dany that they have been waiting for her for a 1,000 years. It seems like Dany is more than just a Targ royal. There's obviously prophecy and magic attached to her that points toward something mystical and mysterious. 

You are right in that we don't know Quaithe's intentions yet. But GRRM has said that he wants his characters to make decisions of their own volition, so I think we can rule out Dany being mind controlled. She could be just telling what she sees in the fires, like Mel does. Quaithe herself may not understand what the symbols or the visions mean. 

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