Unpopular Opinion: Support Daenerys

[Erkan12]

Just now, Daemos said:

That wasn't an option once the battle started. War is a terrible thing, and this was The Last War according to Dany. Let Planetos remember the horror so that it will never happen again. And it won't so long as Dany is alive.

They are not fighters or soldiers, how do you expect them to fight  

It's like asking from Varys to fight at Winterfell against the army of the dead, even Tyrion didn't fight and he hide when others were fighting, so they chose the Night King then 

[Lollygag]

I can think of real world current events where using some of the above reasoning and rationalizations of treating people in this manner are relevant and the result is extraordinary dangerous and immoral. But hey, it's all good if my guy "wins", right? This forum is damned disturbing sometimes these days. 

And get your terms right. Vengeance is reacting to a past event. Acting to prevent future abuses is something else entirely.

[Vanadis]

Let's assume Dany doesn't survive next episode (that would be subverting our expectations, wouldn't you say?) then it follows that the narrator of this tale is someone opposed to Dany, someone who survives, someone who is on the winning side. In other words, the narrator is not trustworthy. We can safely assume that important information has been left out in order to make Dany's choice seem a lot worse than it was. 

The narrator wants us to believe that the city surrendered, and then Dany attacked.
For all we know, Dany saw evidence of weapons of mass destruction (wildfire), and then she attacked.
Or, the people reacted in a way not shown to us viewers.
Or, she was heading straight for the red keep, but the winds blew her off course.

And, with all the Dothraki still alive, I'm sure the casualties were much lower than reported anyway.

What Dany did may not have been the right thing to do by our standards, but it needs not disqualify her from being ruler, nor make us withdraw our support. 

[Vanadis]

11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I can think of real world current events where using some of the above reasoning and rationalizations of treating people in this manner are relevant and the result is extraordinary dangerous and immoral.

I agree. My support for Dany comes as a result of seeing a character do something not, in my opinion, because this is something that character would have done, but because it furthers the plot. I don't condone the killing of innocents, but I will not allow a writer to have a character do atrocious acts for the sole purpose of having her killed the following episode and ensuring that we don't turn on the one that kills her. 

Dany & Sansa as co rulers as the two most screwed by bad writing.
Stannis, unfortunately dead, or I'd let the three of them be the three heads of the dragon.

[Daemos]

2 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

I don't condone the killing innocents, but I will not allow a writer to have a character do atrocious acts for the sole purpose of having her killed the following episode and ensuring that we don't turn on the one that kills her. 

I can't believe you have to say that. Are people so thick to not realize that this is a discussion of a fictional reality based in literature? Our opinions on the burning of KL are NOT indicative of our opinions on real world events.

[Vanadis]

2 minutes ago, Daemos said:

I can't believe you have to say that. Are people so thick to not realize that this is a discussion of a fictional reality based in literature? Our opinions on the burning of KL are NOT indicative of our opinions on real world events.

Thank you.
And hey, it is the Internet.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Vanadis said:

I agree. My support for Dany comes as a result of seeing a character do something not, in my opinion, because this is something that character would have done, but because it furthers the plot. I don't condone the killing of innocents, but I will not allow a writer to have a character do atrocious acts for the sole purpose of having her killed the following episode and ensuring that we don't turn on the one that kills her. 

Dany & Sansa as co rulers as the two most screwed by bad writing.
Stannis, unfortunately dead, or I'd let the three of them be the three heads of the dragon. 

I gotcha, but that doesn't come across at all. It's rather pointless to argue for something that never happened on screen because then no one's on the same page. It's constantly switching between people's various headcanons of Dany. I'd like to take positions from the angle of book Jon who's not an idiot, book Jaime who was growing emotionally distant from Cersei before his POV even began, book Sansa who's still holds to courtesy is a lady's armor and book Arya who's not an absurd Terminator machine, but what's the point? 

[Lollygag]

10 minutes ago, Daemos said:

I can't believe you have to say that. Are people so thick to not realize that this is a discussion of a fictional reality based in literature? Our opinions on the burning of KL are NOT indicative of our opinions on real world events.

Seems I can't watch a news show these days without a mention of GoT and Trump uses GoT-based promotional material. The whole world is watching with rl life figures being compared to Joff, Cersei, and I guess now Dany. The WWs are treated as allegories for climate change. It's not just a bunch of fantasy characters. It's taken on a lot more gravity than that. 

And have you not met our world and all of the not very bright people in it? You do have to be careful of what you say because some folks will take it seriously. The consequences of this are all over the news lately. 

[Daemos]

1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Seems I can't watch a news show these days without a mention of GoT and Trump uses GoT-based promotional material. The whole world is watching with rl life figures being compared to Joff, Cersei, and I guess now Dany. The WWs are treated as allegories for climate change. It's not just a bunch of fantasy characters. It's taken on a lot more gravity than that. 

And have you not met our world and all of the not very bright people in it? You do have to be careful of what you say because some folks will take it seriously. The consequences of this are all over the news lately. 

Sorry love, but I'm not American. I don't worship the TV, and my opinions on fiction don't inform my political mind and allegiances.

[Vanadis]

15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's rather pointless to argue for something that never happened on screen because then no one's on the same page. 

Under all other circumstances I would agree with this.

But it feels like this show has become a string of random events, and it feels like we're forced to assume there's a lot happening that we don't see if we are to make sense of it all.

And I never was the biggest Dany supporter before, although she had her moments, but after E05 I am.

[Vanadis]

3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

And have you not met our world and all of the not very bright people in it? You do have to be careful of what you say because some folks will take it seriously. The consequences of this are all over the news lately. 

You're right. Seriously. I should clarify my position even more.

Kids out there: Dany is awesome. If she has to burn a city to the ground with her dragon, I support her. But only because she is Dany. If you try the same thing, you're lame. I don't support you. In fact, I oppose you and I will oppose you until the end of my days.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Daemos said:

Sorry love, but I'm not American. I don't worship the TV, and my opinions on fiction don't inform my political mind and allegiances.

It's a world-wide thing and more internet-based. Check out the New Zealand shooting and how that built up. 

No one can read your mind. People will assume what they will unless you clarify that yourself. 

[Empress Sansa]

Just now, Vanadis said:

For all we know, Dany saw evidence of weapons of mass destruction (wildfire), and then she attacked.

Ah the irony of the people calling Dany for her 'unjustified' mayhem and then voting all those warheads into Washington. Reality surpass fiction (as in the motives after Iraq).

[OldGimletEye]

5 hours ago, Daemos said:

Not innocent from Dany's perspective. Cersei, THEIR RULER, killed them all the minute she did not accept the terms of surrender. The terms are set before the battle starts, not after. The true Mad Queen is none other than Cersei.

And who gives a flyin' fuck what Dany's perspective was? What she did was horrid.

This idea that their is just multiple perspectives, all equally valid is pure horseshit.

6 hours ago, Daemos said:

She is still the best chance for a unified Planetos.

And why does Planetos needed to be united, particularly if it does done by force of arms?

[Daemos]

36 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

This idea that their is just multiple perspectives, all equally valid is pure horseshit.

Are we reading the same books or watching the same show? Good and evil are constructs at best or slogans to be used as tools at worst. Morality an illusion. Only egoism exists.

 

38 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And why does Planetos needed to be united, particularly if it does done by force of arms?

The greatest things ever conceived by mankind came from the coalescing of peoples and ideas. Also some of the worst. But that is a risk some are willing to take.

[RhaenysBee]

11 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

Ok, lets ignore the crimes that killing hundreds of innocent children at KL,

She said she is infertile right?, and probably it's true considering that she had sex with Daario many times before and never get pregnant,

So what will happen to the succession? If she can't produce another Targaryen, who people will follow after her death?

Somehow she miraculously gets pregnant from Jon in that short time when they had sex and produces a Targaryen heir?

Even if we ignore her crimes, it's still ambigious that what will happen if the final ends with her ruling only, it will be a huge chaos in the Seven Kingdoms after her death, producers or the writers can't ignore this fact.

Jon would be a better ruler instead of her almost in every way. Varys also pointed it out that succession is important.

I just want to point out that what you described above is the exact storyline of Cersei Lannister’s for seasons 7-8. Neither the writers, not the citizens of the Seven Kingdoms were particularly bothered to make/let/see it happen, so it’s logical to ask why it would/should be any different for Daenerys. 

But I suppose Dan and Dave kinda forgot about this. 

[OldGimletEye]

16 minutes ago, Daemos said:

Are we reading the same books or watching the same show? Good and evil are constructs at best or slogans to be used as tools at worst. Morality an illusion. Only egoism exists.

Oh just fuck me. Seriously?

Not even you believe this garbage. If you did, you wouldn't run about making arguments why Dany should rule and why planetos needs to be united.

16 minutes ago, Daemos said:

The greatest things ever conceived by mankind came from the coalescing of peoples and ideas. Also some of the worst. But that is a risk some are willing to take.

Even by military force?

[Daemos]

12 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Even by military force?

Depends on what is at stake. That's how we justify the means to meet our ends no? Some situations will require that you break away from your morality and do things that are beyond what is normally permissible. War is one of those things.

[OldGimletEye]

1 minute ago, Daemos said:

Depends on what is at stake. That's how we justify the means to meet our ends no?

I can't imagine what would be at stake, to justify a campaign of world wide conquest.

[no_one...]

Setting aside the terrible writing of the last 2 seasons in particular, the theme of breaking the wheel would require limiting if not out right rejecting the Monarchy as an institution.   This would preclude Danny's world view.

 That said the innocents should have evacuated the Capital back in Season 7 after they saw her armies and Dragons.  I certainly would have run for the hills.   Instead of going mad queen the results could have easily been the same if she had coldly stated an example must be set and KL raised like the Tywin had done to his enemies and queen C had done to hers as poetic justice.