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Unpopular Opinion: Support Daenerys

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12 hours ago, SeanF said:

That's where we definitely needed more episodes.  Dany ought to have been the chance to show if she's a competent ruler.

Hi, this was the entire point of her time in Meereen. She is not a competent ruler. Both books and show spent ages showing us that. While i agre we needed more episodes, this aint the reason, mate. 

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It doesn't matter whether or not people support her. She is definitely dying tomorrow night. Otherwise, the writers wouldn't have made her commit such a horrendous act (murdering probably hundreds of thousands of innocent people after the city surrendered) in the penultimate episode.

If the show weren't going off the air on Sunday, I'd say it might make an interesting moral dilemma, watching the nobles and smallfolk of the seven kingdoms decide whether to saddle up with the mad queen or try to oppose her reign, but it is going off the air, and I guarantee that's not where the showrunners plan to leave it.

She will die. The only question is whether it will be Jon (probably), Arya (possibly), or someone else (Gendry, Tyrion, Davos, Hot Pie...) who does her in. Honestly, I am kind of hoping that she realizes what she's become and does herself in, but I'm guessing that won't happen. 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, no_one... said:

Setting aside the terrible writing of the last 2 seasons in particular, the theme of breaking the wheel would require limiting if not out right rejecting the Monarchy as an institution.   This would preclude Danny's world view.

 That said the innocents should have evacuated the Capital back in Season 7 after they saw her armies and Dragons.  I certainly would have run for the hills.   Instead of going mad queen the results could have easily been the same if she had coldly stated an example must be set and KL raised like the Tywin had done to his enemies and queen C had done to hers as poetic justice. 

That’s true, I was saying that to friend of mine while watching the show: why are they trying to get in instead of getting out and fleeing KL like crazy? Anything could go bad and there are dragons, if the army had not surrender the battle would have been transferred  in the streets. This is not logical. People do evacuate cities when the enemy is coming. 

Edited by Nightwish

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

It doesn't matter whether or not people support her. She is definitely dying tomorrow night. Otherwise, the writers wouldn't have made her commit such a horrendous act (murdering probably hundreds of thousands of innocent people after the city surrendered) in the penultimate episode.

If the show weren't going off the air on Sunday, I'd say it might make an interesting moral dilemma, watching the nobles and smallfolk of the seven kingdoms decide whether to saddle up with the mad queen or try to oppose her reign, but it is going off the air, and I guarantee that's not where the showrunners plan to leave it.

She will die. The only question is whether it will be Jon (probably), Arya (possibly), or someone else (Gendry, Tyrion, Davos, Hot Pie...) who does her in. Honestly, I am kind of hoping that she realizes what she's become and does herself in, but I'm guessing that won't happen. 

I'm just hoping Jon dies with her or something worse for him.

Edited by Daemos

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Haven't read the thread, just responding to the OP directly:

Daenerys ruling by means of fear and tyranny could ultimately, potentially result in a long time of peace and prosperity for the majority of the people in Westeros. This is basically how most "enlightened monarchs" ruled in the 16h-18th century. More often than not it was the nobility who took the brunt of if as the monarchs centralized power around themselves and not the commoners.
Then of course, she might make a habit of eradicating entire areas of people who oppose her, and then ultimately, there won't be much of Westeros left in X years as.

I do think that the show will kill her of in the next episode however, and then make up some stupid excuse for not having Westeros fractured in a new civil war as her army of Dothraki, Unsullied and Drogon essentially rampages across the country, avenging their queen. (It doesn't matter how evil Daenerys becomes, these three will always be loyal to her.)

Ultimately, there is no time left of the show to explore the possibility of Daenerys ruling as a tyrant and then seeing how that eventually pans out (for good or evil), while the remainder of the characters, centralized around Jon, form an opposition and try to dethrone her. Shame, because I think that would make for a great final season.

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11 hours ago, Vanadis said:

England had Elizabeth I and it turned out just fine.

Just let Jon have some kids, then Dany can name them as her successors.

I don't recall reading about Elizabeth I burning London to the ground and slaughtering most of its citizens, though. 

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Jon won't want to kill her. For Jon to break his promise for her not to be his queen. She has do something bad and stark men it's about family. Well not Bran or sansa. But it's how Jon is.

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The problem with going along with tyranny or just too much concentration of power because, hey, maybe they'll be a "good" tyrant :shocked:, is that by the time you realize what they're really about and they're half-ways smart, they've consolidated so much power that you can't really do anything about it either way. You're neck deep in hopelessness by the time it hits you that they'll treat any man, woman or child who is expendable or in their way as nothing more than meat sacks. 

People didn't think Hitler was going to be that bad at first either. And notice the Hitler/Nazi imagery set to horror movie music in the episode 6 trailer. If anyone is still wondering how Dany intends to rule, they've already told us. 

 

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Dany could just pull a "Drogon went nuts and just burned everything, it was all I could do to hold on!"

But doubtful at this point, fear it is she said after all.

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7 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Haven't read the thread, just responding to the OP directly:

Daenerys ruling by means of fear and tyranny could ultimately, potentially result in a long time of peace and prosperity for the majority of the people in Westeros. This is basically how most "enlightened monarchs" ruled in the 16h-18th century. More often than not it was the nobility who took the brunt of if as the monarchs centralized power around themselves and not the commoners.
Then of course, she might make a habit of eradicating entire areas of people who oppose her, and then ultimately, there won't be much of Westeros left in X years as.
 

The enlightened monarchs did not have dragons. They have armies of commoners led by lesser nobility and armed with a weapon that did not require lifetime of training to be effective. Armies that can be garrisoned everywhere in the realm to squash any notions of uprising. They were resting firmly on the shoulders of nouveau riche - nobles and commoners who got rich by trade and manufacturing, and they rested firmly on cities.

 

Even in her most idealized state of actually being a good wise ruler Dany would have nothing of this, in fact her reign of terror would be extremely centered aroun d where her dragon is at the moment. But "dragon plants no trees".

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bradam said:

Dany could just pull a "Drogon went nuts and just burned everything, it was all I could do to hold on!"

But doubtful at this point, fear it is she said after all.

That would make me laugh out loud, if she said that.

Jon would reply "Yeh, well, shit happens, doesn't it?  You are my Queen.  I love you."

Edited by SeanF

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9 hours ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

It doesn't matter whether or not people support her. She is definitely dying tomorrow night. Otherwise, the writers wouldn't have made her commit such a horrendous act (murdering probably hundreds of thousands of innocent people after the city surrendered) in the penultimate episode.

If the show weren't going off the air on Sunday, I'd say it might make an interesting moral dilemma, watching the nobles and smallfolk of the seven kingdoms decide whether to saddle up with the mad queen or try to oppose her reign, but it is going off the air, and I guarantee that's not where the showrunners plan to leave it.

She will die. The only question is whether it will be Jon (probably), Arya (possibly), or someone else (Gendry, Tyrion, Davos, Hot Pie...) who does her in. Honestly, I am kind of hoping that she realizes what she's become and does herself in, but I'm guessing that won't happen. 

The ending I'd prefer is her winning, and reigning, but realising that she has become everything that she once hated.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Ellimental said:

I don't recall reading about Elizabeth I burning London to the ground and slaughtering most of its citizens, though. 

Elizabeth I did things that are questionable by our moral standards. We can support her, but apparently it does take a toll on the psyche, because when she realized that she was dying, she refused to go to sleep. She was afraid of the afterlife and being judged. Some of the things she seems to have regretted, was killing off relatives, threats to her reign. Her sister's and her reign was also a period when they would kill people of the opposite faith by burning them on the pyre. Her sister was called "Bloody Mary" because of her way of dealing with the opposition. Their father, Henry VIII, was known as a tyrant, a man who started out as a "saviour prince" because people were tired of his father Henry VII's reign of terror.

But of course, Elizabeth did not have to conquer a city. Her sister just happened to die. Nor did Elizabeth have a dragon. 

I'm not a historian, but Tudor history is as interesting as Game of Thrones when it comes to plots and twists and turns and interesting characters making an impression on history. And also, cruelty.

Edited by Vanadis

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Daenerys is one of my favorite characters. But I think she must die. Otherwise, what will be the moral of this story? The best way to get power is to shed as much blood as possible? I don't think Martin wants to tell us that.
 

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22 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

So what will happen to the succession? If she can't produce another Targaryen, who people will follow after her death?

I don't think this is such a big problem. Dany is very young and her reign could last for many decades. Over the years you can find the right person as heir.


It would have been a good bittersweet ending: Jon and Dany were married, the Golden Era had begun, but we knew that they would have no heirs. But now all this is not important. All this has become impossible after the bells and the dragonfire.

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Posted (edited)

When it comes to Daenerys, I think she will die in the last episode.

But I also think her story in the show cannot be reviewed without taking the writing in itself into account.

Let's say that after Daenerys' descent into darkness and her following death, there were still three more seasons to go. Would these have been three seasons of peace and calm? No - we would see one after the other of the main characters become more and more cruel. Why? Because the plot would have demanded it. And because it has been foreshadowed.

Arya - the killing of the Freys with no regard whether one among them was innocent.
Sansa - the killing of Ramsey by torture, and a clear sign of joy when completing the deed.
Tyrion - threatening everyone during his trial. His tendency to anger.
Bran - the same emotionless stare that Dany has. Three more seasons, and the power he has aquired would have become too much for him.
Tormund - give him a season and watch him go back to his wildling ways...
Davos and Brienne - they have been portrayed as overall good people, but if the show continued sooner or later they would be faced with a dark choice by  their lieges.

My point is, foreshadowing is nothing. If the showrunners told the story in this particular way in order for Dany's burning of King's Landing not only to be a justification to kill her off, but also to turn the shock meter to the highest setting, then there's a certain randomness to it that in the end really doesn't tell about her character at all. Given this randomness, she might never attack anyone again. Because the only reason for doing evil acts in this season is because the plot demands it, and who knows what the plot would have demanded had it continued another season or two.

Because no matter who tidies up the place after Daenerys has been removed, they can turn as evil as her in the blink of the eye, because that too has been foreshadowed, and the only reason they don't will be that there are no more episodes left to tell that story.

Edit: How could I forget dear Jon? :)
Coming back from the dead. How is that not a foreshadowing that he brought something evil with him. Killing Olly and the traitors who just wanted to stop Jon from bringing wildlings into the realm, barbarians who in their mind would bring a lot of destruction with them. Naturally Jon had to kill his brothers or risk being killed, but that is precisely the dilemma of any ruler. Jon is certainly no better, so I consider this a foreshadowing of him turning evil if his story continues past this season.

(And foreshadowing does in no way mean that this is something that is likely to happen. Foreshadowing means that if the character goes against their core values for no apparent reason, we can point to that moment in time and say, "but he did this... we should always have known he would turn evil!")

Edited by Vanadis

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46 minutes ago, Ilissa said:
Daenerys is one of my favorite characters. But I think she must die. Otherwise, what will be the moral of this story? The best way to get power is to shed as much blood as possible? I don't think Martin wants to tell us that.
 

What's the moral of the story if she dies?
"Power corrupts"? 
"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become a villain"?
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?
"We are who we are born to be, and no agency can change that"?

All seems kinda depressing and trope:y don't they?
 

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4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

What's the moral of the story if she dies?

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace."

"A good conqueror cannot be a good person."

"There is no good war even with a good leader."

I think this is an overall anti-war message from Martin.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ilissa said:

I don't think this is such a big problem. Dany is very young and her reign could last for many decades. Over the years you can find the right person as heir.


It would have been a good bittersweet ending: Jon and Dany were married, the Golden Era had begun, but we knew that they would have no heirs. But now all this is not important. All this has become impossible after the bells and the dragonfire.

Do you know why Red Wedding happened?

Not only Robb made political mistakes and Lannisters secured the Iron Throne, it also because Robb didn't have any heir at the moment and he had to legitimize Jon and which is why Catelyn and Robb were arguing about it. When they killed Robb there was no one to succeed him after the apparent deaths of Bran and Rickon and also because losing Winterfell, thus they assasinate him in that way because no one would have the power to avenge Robb's death in the future.

Ruling without having an heir is a big problem. Her being young isn't a guarantee for living long, anything can happen.

Edited by Erkan12

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Do you know why Red Wedding happened?

Red Wedding happened during the war. But Dany won the war.

Edited by Ilissa

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