How people's reaction to this season affects grrm?

[divica]

14 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You've had 5000+ pages of fair warning for how this world works. The ending will be organic to what we've been given so far. 

But for the main pov characters of asoiaf their story is basically bittersweet… It is very diferent from a tragedy or dark fantasy.

You can t tell me that so far jon, arya, tyrion and danny stories make you feel depressed. Even bran and sansa aren t that negative… 

 

[T and A]

38 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Pointing out that I'm wrong and you're right is me being cocky? That's a new one. 

I never pointed out that you are wrong though...

[divica]

Just now, aFeastForDragons said:

Jon going to Hardhome

I could believe that this could happen in book 5. It was one of the few good ideas of the show and would make an interesting read (see how valyrian steel fares against the others and having jon's first battle with them…).

I find much more unlikely something as the wight hunt happening in such an idiotic way as happened in the show. I can totally see jon wanting to get wights to show people they are real. But there are so many better and saffer ways to do it...

And if jon and danny meet face to face the most probable reason for it to happen is because they are discussing their marriage aliance (she is interested in the kingdom(s) he controls and he in her armies and dragon(s)).

[Lollygag]

44 minutes ago, T and A said:

I never pointed out that you are wrong though...

Yes, you did. 

I thought that was GRRM's personal twitter. You pointed out that he didn't have an account in 2013 and when I checked, you were right so I acknowledged that and added where it specifies that it's not GRRM's personal account. 

[T and A]

11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Yes, you did. 

I thought that was GRRM's personal twitter. You pointed out that he didn't have an account in 2013 and when I checked, you were right so I acknowledged that and added where it specifies that it's not GRRM's personal account. 

OK. Some missunderstandings here from me. I took it as a sarcastic response, while you had just acnowledged it. Sorry .

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, divica said:

But for the main pov characters of asoiaf their story is basically bittersweet… It is very diferent from a tragedy or dark fantasy.

You can t tell me that so far jon, arya, tyrion and danny stories make you feel depressed. Even bran and sansa aren t that negative… 

 

Hats off to GRRM if he can make a custom bittersweet ending for each and every main character. I don't see how it's possible myself.

The bittersweet part is more realistic if it applies to the story overall, meaning for some, they'll have a good ending, at least for Westeros, but some will have tragic ends, but it makes more sense to me that bittersweet speaks more to Westeros's seasons being restored, whatever's up with magic will be resolved, and some sort of order will be put back in place and hopefully it'll be a better order than what we started out with. 

I adjusted my expectation for the characters when Ned was killed. I reaffirmed them when Robb and Cat died in the Red Wedding. Main characters aren't guaranteed a happy or even meh ending. If I had a problem with that, I'd have stopped reading/watching long before now. There's a certain richness that comes with tragedy.

I don't like Dany's end and I didn't see it coming and I'm not sure I expect that degree of turn in the books though I've seen enough to think it's possible, but I am enjoying backtracking and putting the pieces together to see if her ending does make some sense. And I enjoy when GRRM holds up a mirror to us to show us that we make the same mistakes as the Westerosi. Our judgement of book Jaime is a perfect example. We were all certain that we had him all figured out, but we all learned that we judged him wrongly just like the Westerosi.

It looks like we got it done to us again in Dany. We turned a blind eye to the negatives, hand-waved them, excused them, how could they be serious problems when she has so much good in her? But they were serious. There's also themes of the monsters we ourselves create in Dany that's an echo of Joff. We were told that there was a seed of bad in Joff, but that Cersei fanned that fire (mental illness is often equated with fire) to a flame by not reigning him in and showing him a healthy love. Tywin all but accused her of damning him. We're seeing the same with Dany. She had that seed of bad in her, but the Westerosi (and us) weren't cognizant that some people have this bad seed in them, and when they're treated badly and feel hopeless, it fans that seed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought of workplace and school shootings here.

There's a show on Netflix called 13 Reasons Why which deals in depth with the subject of people who have a seed of something bad and that society needs to be aware that these people are the way they are. 

While yes, these arcs are depressing, if they were a simple happy ending, they wouldn't be rich at all. It'd be Natty Light compared to a complex wine for me. 

 

[Xemi]

On 5/18/2019 at 1:24 PM, divica said:

We have been told for years that the ending of GOT and asoiaf was similar. Given how disapointed people have been with the season so far and some of the characters arcs, if people also hate the final how will it affect grrm?

We know he doesn t change the story if people find out how things will turn out. But what if people dislike what he is writing? Will he spend several years writing a story that people hate the ending? Will he get depressed by people's reaction to the final season of GOT? Will he feel like he needs to change someting to make the story more likable? Or is his ending simply diferent?

 Well, I know I would not buy the books if they ever came out (which they won't, so I guess it's a moot point anyways).

[T and A]

11 minutes ago, Xemi said:

 Well, I know I would not buy the books if they ever came out (which they won't, so I guess it's a moot point anyways).

Me neither. I don't care how GRRM will come to certain points. Even if the path is a completely different one. This series is obviously a nihilistic aproach. No interest in reading that. Maybe I just had the wrong hopes while reading. It is nihilistic up until now, but I thought it might change when Winds unfolds. Nope. Thank you, but no thank you.

[Sea Dragon]

This is going to affect Martin BIG TIME. When he writes winds of winter and the last books he will be darn sure to make it clear that this story is about Danearys being the conquerer and savior. She is the missing piece in fantasy being that she is a strong female. Martin has a modern audience to write for now and the show messed up BIG TIME. I am so angry with what I saw last episode. There is no way that happens in the books with Queen Danaerys. She and Jon will restore the Targaryen dynasty together. It is quit obvious that the author meant it this way. 

So yeah, this reaction of mine is like most every ones and we are very angry over the shows portrayal of women and Martin will bring out his fire and blood to make it the way it fits a modern audience and the way he wants. Her redemption arc (as if she needed one) starts now. 

[Xemi]

9 minutes ago, T and A said:

Me neither. I don't care how GRRM will come to certain points. Even if the path is a completely different one. This series is obviously a nihilistic aproach. No interest in reading that. Maybe I just had the wrong hopes while reading. It is nihilistic up until now, but I thought it might change when Winds unfolds. Nope. Thank you, but no thank you.

Yeah, I kept reading/watching because we were promised a bittersweet ending, like LOTR, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. Clearly GRRM has no idea what bittersweet means.

[Sea Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Xemi said:

Yeah, I kept reading/watching because we were promised a bittersweet ending, like LOTR, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered. Clearly GRRM has no idea what bittersweet means.

How did his other books end? Does anyone know? 

[BalerionTheCat]

His story has a purpose, a message. And he will not change them for fan service because of the show. The show makes it easier, in fact. Now the readers will see from far away where Daenerys is heading. And how she is wrong.

[Lollygag]

Something to consider about the bittersweet/mixed ending especially if they're doing GRRM's ending.

The show short-circuited the Long Night II into almost nothing because they wanted to do Star Wars. However, the books are poised to get extremely dark (Euron in TWOW) and a lot of characters, not just Dany, are on the verge of a much darker path. In the books, we're poised to get something like this:

AGOT Bran IV

"Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

Something like the show ending for the books looks a lot better by comparison if they've managed to get past this. But if they've only overcome The Long 82 Minutes with a cheated, lazy ending where it was only barely cold enough for snow and then it was only as deep as a dusting, then the ending by comparison does look only bitter. Winter is Coming will forever be a joke unless GRRM finishes the novels. I've heard GRRM say something like he makes his books so dark to make it easier to spot the light, and he has a point there. It just never got that dark so any light's harder to see by comparison.

 

[Pacala]

i think he already finished those books but was too afraid to release them. probably that`s why HBO prolonged this season so long, they did not expected to become a cultural phenomenon and in the end they knew the fans will be disappointed.

[T and A]

49 minutes ago, Pacala said:

i think he already finished those books but was too afraid to release them. probably that`s why HBO prolonged this season so long, they did not expected to become a cultural phenomenon and in the end they knew the fans will be disappointed.

Go to georgerrmartin.com. Klick notablog. He has a message there, regarding this . Spoiler: he gets pissed that people actually believe this. I agree with him on this matter. How can one come to the idea, that he might have actually written anything related to ASOIAF? The idea of him finishing anything is bizarre...

[kuenjato]

9 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

This is going to affect Martin BIG TIME. When he writes winds of winter and the last books he will be darn sure to make it clear that this story is about Danearys being the conquerer and savior. She is the missing piece in fantasy being that she is a strong female. Martin has a modern audience to write for now and the show messed up BIG TIME. I am so angry with what I saw last episode. There is no way that happens in the books with Queen Danaerys. She and Jon will restore the Targaryen dynasty together. It is quit obvious that the author meant it this way. 

So yeah, this reaction of mine is like most every ones and we are very angry over the shows portrayal of women and Martin will bring out his fire and blood to make it the way it fits a modern audience and the way he wants. Her redemption arc (as if she needed one) starts now. 

This is la-la-land thinking. Dany's turn is the most GRRM plot point to come out of the last three seasons, and encapsulates all of the themes he's been working on since the mid-90's.

The reaction to Dany's turn is exactly the reaction newbies had to Ned Stark's beheading and the Red Wedding. Subverting the messiah complex Dany exemplified was the final and biggest twist of ASOIAF, and was probably there from his original outlines.

[Targaryen Peas]

20 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

This is going to affect Martin BIG TIME. When he writes winds of winter and the last books he will be darn sure to make it clear that this story is about Danearys being the conquerer and savior. She is the missing piece in fantasy being that she is a strong female. Martin has a modern audience to write for now and the show messed up BIG TIME. I am so angry with what I saw last episode. There is no way that happens in the books with Queen Danaerys. She and Jon will restore the Targaryen dynasty together. It is quit obvious that the author meant it this way. 

So yeah, this reaction of mine is like most every ones and we are very angry over the shows portrayal of women and Martin will bring out his fire and blood to make it the way it fits a modern audience and the way he wants. Her redemption arc (as if she needed one) starts now. 

I disliked Daenerys in the first seasons, yet I can't even watch the last episode now that I saw that Gif with Jon sticking that damn dagger... 

I loved this character and wished for a better ending for her even at the cost of Jon and Tyrion. 

I do love having a strong female character, even in my video games etc...

But I can't really accept this femi-shit of "portrayal of women" if we can be sure about one thing; GRRM doesn't give a shit if you are a man or a woman, he will be as good as possible, and as ruthless as possible disregarding of the sex... And it is not because you are a woman that you deserv better treatment. Sansa is fucking queen in the north. Arya is a one woman army. Isn't that enough? 

[Lion of the West]

23 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

People, at least people in this forum, are not clamoring for a happy-ever-after ending.  Folks seem to want an ending that makes sense, and logically fits into the story.  Martin tells stories that have internal logic.  Even if Martin wants to end the series with Bron or Sweet Robin or Pod ruling everything, there will be pages of rationale for why that happens.  A good author gives the reader the reasons why for events in the story.

Here at the end, the show seems to be throwing stuff at us, while completely ignoring other unanswered problems it gave us earlier.  It feels rushed, like ending the Odyssey and Iliad with the words  ...and Odysseus got home.

I think that in "making sense" you have a point but only in that the show failed to show us the proper path to the end, not that the end itself seemed out of place with the setting or the characters. For example everything seems to be pretty perfectly which what I could imagine one or another character doing in the correct situation. But I will agree that the show failed to lead us down the path and paint us the picture of the exact set of events that resulted in what happened.