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Gerold the Great

Boltons vs Manderlys'

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Manderlys has a city and silver mines. Besides unlike medieval taxes and rents custom revenues are paid with gold or silver so they could also hire more mercenaries. After all if I were one I would like my wages paid either gold or silver. There is also a possibility that their lands are also more fertile, bc those will be frozen later during winters and melt sooner during springs. Or peasants of Manderlys should be able to use their fields longer during years than their northern colleques farming lands of house Bolton. Thanks to their harbor they could also feed much larger population than Boltons.

 So I suspect that Manderlys have much stronger economy, population and military than Boltons.

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House Manderly is the most powerful house in the North. They’ll just never rule because they’re an Andal house who are relatively new compared to the other houses. I just hope that they don’t try any power moves of their own.

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House Manderly by quite some margin.

If the Karstarks in the northeastern forests  close to the Wall can raise 3000 men, well, imagine what the Manderlys way down south, with a city of tens of thousands, the economic hub of the North and controlling the White Knife transport and trade artery can raise.

At least double the Karstark numbers in my view.

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I agree with the above answers for the most part. But I wonder about the personalities of the Manderlys themselves. They're not exactly warrior-like. An indecisive or overly cautious leader can lose a battle, even if other factors are in his favor.

Both Houses seem fond of treachery and deception, e.g. the Red Wedding and the "Frey pie." If those two fight, the winner might be decided by some such devious means, not by simple numbers.

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6 hours ago, Aebram said:

I agree with the above answers for the most part. But I wonder about the personalities of the Manderlys themselves. They're not exactly warrior-like. An indecisive or overly cautious leader can lose a battle, even if other factors are in his favor.

Both Houses seem fond of treachery and deception, e.g. the Red Wedding and the "Frey pie." If those two fight, the winner might be decided by some such devious means, not by simple numbers.

Well, the Boltons and Manderlys have already traded blows in the series and it took Rodrick's intervention to make them stop. So I would say that they are likely pretty even when it comes to trading blows. Although for the factors that Free Northman pointed out, I would say that the Manderlys are problably going to win in the long run, with the Bolton's best hope being to force a decisive battle fairly early while they still have their forces intact and the Manderly gold hasn't started to make a serious dent on the war development. 

And by the way, didn the Manderlys also have silver mines on their lands? Or am I recalling it incorrectly?

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Manderly has the money, men, ships and trade.  The Boltons have the Dredfort.

Apparently, it took a two year siege for the Starks to take the Dredfort the last time the Boltons rebelled.  I don't know if the Manderly fortifications are as strong.

If it were one on one, I'd go with Manderly.  They can resupply by sea, hire sellswords and are generally better equipped.

Depending on who picks up more allies, it can go either way.

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3 hours ago, PrinceHenryris said:

Manderly has the money, men, ships and trade.  The Boltons have the Dredfort.

Apparently, it took a two year siege for the Starks to take the Dredfort the last time the Boltons rebelled.  I don't know if the Manderly fortifications are as strong.

If it were one on one, I'd go with Manderly.  They can resupply by sea, hire sellswords and are generally better equipped.

Depending on who picks up more allies, it can go either way.

Considering the fact that the Boltons are probably the most hated house in the North. The Manderlys could easily gain both allies, and power over the North despite the fact that they are an andal house, and follow the seven.

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Posted (edited)

Not counting the Starks, Boltons are at best the third most poweful house in the North, the first two being Manderly, owns the only city of the North and large tracts of land that extend from White knife in the West to Sheepshead hills in the North and Flint and Locke lands in east and South and Dustin, who owns the only town in The North big enough to be notable and biggest region of the North, Barrowlands. These two are the only two vassals of the North that whose votes in the great council were important enough to be mentioned.

 

In comparison Bolton lands are limited with Lonely Hills and Last river in the North-Northwest and East and with Hornwood lands in the South-Southwest, has no notable town, with their vote in the council not so important to be mentioned.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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41 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not counting the Starks, Boltons are at best the third most poweful house in the North, the first two being Manderly, owns the only city of the North and large tracts of land that extend from White knife in the West to Sheepshead hills in the North and Flint and Locke lands in east and South and Dustin, who owns the only town in The North big enough to be notable and biggest region of the North, Barrowlands. These two are the only two vassals of the North that whose votes in the great council were important enough to be mentioned.

 

In comparison Bolton lands are limited with Lonely Hills and Last river in the North-Northwest and East and with Hornwood lands in the South-Southwest, has no notable town, with their vote in the council not so important to be mentioned.

It is not clear who is the more powerful between the Dustins and Boltons. I think it is quite closely matched between them.

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14 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

Well, the Boltons and Manderlys have already traded blows in the series and it took Rodrick's intervention to make them stop. So I would say that they are likely pretty even when it comes to trading blows. Although for the factors that Free Northman pointed out, I would say that the Manderlys are problably going to win in the long run, with the Bolton's best hope being to force a decisive battle fairly early while they still have their forces intact and the Manderly gold hasn't started to make a serious dent on the war development. 

And by the way, didn the Manderlys also have silver mines on their lands? Or am I recalling it incorrectly?

The manderlys have silver mines if I remember correctly.

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On 5/18/2019 at 8:48 AM, Gerold the Great said:

Who is stronger? Boltons or Manderlys (who has more people, whose castle/city is stronger...)? 

I hope the Boltons.  That cannibal needs to lose and die.

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Manderlys is ahead, they are likely the 2nd most powerful house in the North after the Starks.

Wealth = Manderlys(Silver mines and own a city, trade/ports, they also build a fleet out of their own pockets)
Manpower = Manderlys(Boltons might control larger lands but Manderlys still have a city), Manderlys can probably field men 2x larger than any lords if they conscript their city
Armaments = Manderlys(got knights with plate armor, Boltons use chain mail), 
Allies = mixed(Bolton got Ryswell and Dustins, Manderly got dozen landed knights plus other petty lords, lockes. flints and woolfield), but on one on one, I'll go for Manderlys


 

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Definitely the Manderlys and I don't think it's very close. I just don't see any measurement where the Bolton's come out on top over than tenure in the North and fear factor.  

If they were to go head-on, I think the Manderlys could easily field double the troops, maybe triple, along with better heavy horse and whatever help they could buy. The comparative wealth of White Harbor can't be overstated, I seriously doubt any other northern lord outside the Starks could just decide to build a navy, for example. If it came to blows between the two, I get the impression the Manderlys would be much more attractive allies to the lesser lords. 

Wyman definitely held back when he only sent 2,000 men with Robb, but I think it was on purpose. I think when Ned had Cat tell Manderly to reinforce White Harbor, I think there was a larger contingency plan where if the Northern army marched south, Manderly (and Reed I think) would keep most of their strength at home just in case. It looks like the internal threat ruined that plan, but as Wyman said, he still has most of his cards to play against the Boltons/Freys/Lannisters.

I get the feeling the Bolton's long-time defiance of the Stark kings was a Dorne-type situation where the Bolton's would have lost by most measures but held out. 

18 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is not clear who is the more powerful between the Dustins and Boltons. I think it is quite closely matched between them.

This is definitely the bigger question. The Bolton's role in the main story and the defiance of the Red Kings give us an inflated view of them. It's starting to be evened out with TWoIaF and F&B. 

I've also always kind of thought the religion and migration factors against the Manderlys are overblown. It matters, certainly, but I mean, they've been at White Harbor for 700 years, even in a world that measures in the thousands, that's a long time. And sure, the Northern Lords probably think it's kind of weird they worship the 7, but it's not like the Mermen are out here evangelizing or burning weirwoods or anything. I'm not saying the other northerners don't make note of it, but I don't think its that big a deal. The Northern Lords don't seem particularly religious. 

On 5/18/2019 at 9:01 PM, Aebram said:

But I wonder about the personalities of the Manderlys themselves. They're not exactly warrior-like. An indecisive or overly cautious leader can lose a battle, even if other factors are in his favor.

I don't think Wyman is very representative of the Manderlys overall. He's fat as all hell, but his sons were knights. Manderlys brought up in F&B seem plenty competent and martial. And Wyman may not be a fighter himself but he's shown he isn't afraid to gamble and make big moves. Plus he seems pretty ready to die, so he's as wild a card as there is in the North right now. 

And to be fair, I'm a huge Manderly fan overall. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

Definitely the Manderlys and I don't think it's very close. I just don't see any measurement where the Bolton's come out on top over than tenure in the North and fear factor.  

If they were to go head-on, I think the Manderlys could easily field double the troops, maybe triple, along with better heavy horse and whatever help they could buy. The comparative wealth of White Harbor can't be overstated, I seriously doubt any other northern lord outside the Starks could just decide to build a navy, for example. If it came to blows between the two, I get the impression the Manderlys would be much more attractive allies to the lesser lords. 

Wyman definitely held back when he only sent 2,000 men with Robb, but I think it was on purpose. I think when Ned had Cat tell Manderly to reinforce White Harbor, I think there was a larger contingency plan where if the Northern army marched south, Manderly (and Reed I think) would keep most of their strength at home just in case. It looks like the internal threat ruined that plan, but as Wyman said, he still has most of his cards to play against the Boltons/Freys/Lannisters.

I get the feeling the Bolton's long-time defiance of the Stark kings was a Dorne-type situation where the Bolton's would have lost by most measures but held out. 

This is definitely the bigger question. The Bolton's role in the main story and the defiance of the Red Kings give us an inflated view of them. It's starting to be evened out with TWoIaF and F&B. 

I've also always kind of thought the religion and migration factors against the Manderlys are overblown. It matters, certainly, but I mean, they've been at White Harbor for 700 years, even in a world that measures in the thousands, that's a long time. And sure, the Northern Lords probably think it's kind of weird they worship the 7, but it's not like the Mermen are out here evangelizing or burning weirwoods or anything. I'm not saying the other northerners don't make note of it, but I don't think its that big a deal. The Northern Lords don't seem particularly religious. 

I don't think Wyman is very representative of the Manderlys overall. He's fat as all hell, but his sons were knights. Manderlys brought up in F&B seem plenty competent and martial. And Wyman may not be a fighter himself but he's shown he isn't afraid to gamble and make big moves. Plus he seems pretty ready to die, so he's as wild a card as there is in the North right now. 

And to be fair, I'm a huge Manderly fan overall. 

I think the Boltons are as powerful as they are made out to be. It’s just that the Manderlys are even more powerful.

A scenario of the Boltons at 4000, Dustins at 3500 and the Manderlys at 6000-7000 seems quite plausible to me.

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34 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think the Boltons are as powerful as they are made out to be. It’s just that the Manderlys are even more powerful.

A scenario of the Boltons at 4000, Dustins at 3500 and the Manderlys at 6000-7000 seems quite plausible to me.

I'd push Manderly to the 8-10K range if they were pulling out all the stops, but yeah, I can see that generally. 

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Boltons  without doubt are the strongest house in the North. They have been Red kings of Dreadfort for thousands of years. They were the greatest rivals of Starks burning Winterfell two times (three in later history). Dreadfort is strong castle capable of withstanding two year long siege. 

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4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think the Boltons are as powerful as they are made out to be. It’s just that the Manderlys are even more powerful.

A scenario of the Boltons at 4000, Dustins at 3500 and the Manderlys at 6000-7000 seems quite plausible to me.

Manderlys raised 1500 man when they joined Robb Stark. 

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On 5/19/2019 at 2:35 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

It is not clear who is the more powerful between the Dustins and Boltons. I think it is quite closely matched between them.

That's entirely possible. Could be that the Boltons' greater ammount of time in the spotlight comes from them being the more prestigous of the two Houses. The Boltons were after all an ancient House that was once royal while Dustin's may be descendents of the Barrow-kings, but I would think that I recall they are not direct primogeniture descendents.

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