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Boltons vs Manderlys'


Gerold the Great

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On 5/20/2019 at 12:59 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think the Boltons are as powerful as they are made out to be. It’s just that the Manderlys are even more powerful.

A scenario of the Boltons at 4000, Dustins at 3500 and the Manderlys at 6000-7000 seems quite plausible to me.

 

Roose may be top dog in the North right now but even with all the ruse, he still isn’t that powerful compared with the more powerful bannermen of North; even with Roose keeping the majority of his forces intact and Barbrey and Wyman suffering serious losses, these two are still very much powerful and present a threat to Roose.

Dustin and Manderly are the most powerful in the North, which is made rather clear in both the series, and the additional materials.

Now of the two, Manderly is more powerful with his trade, wealth, influence and having a good amount of men but just looking at the amount of men, perhaps Dustins have more, since despite not having a city, Barrowlands is rather big, bigger than Manderly lands and certainly much bigger than Bolton lands.

Think of this as a comparison between Royce and Grafton, the second has the only city but the first is the most powerful vassal in the Vale, or Vance/Bracken/Blackwood vs Mooton, the second has the largest town in RL but they are less powerful than Tullys, who in turn are less powerful than the first group.

Bolton doesn’t have a city, a town large enough to be notable, a notable port(I’m pretty sure they have some small port though), their lands aren’t as vast as they used to be, have only the one castle whereas even the Hornwoods have more than one. In summary, they don’t stand out in anyway that shows or even implies they have a great deal of power.

 

They WERE the last to submit to the Starks and HAD extensive lands but emphasis on were and had.

Dorne was the last to submit to Targaryens but they are the least powerful of the 7K, not counting II, Clansmen of the vale  still haven’t bend their knees, not just to the vale but also to the iron throne but they do little more than stealing cattle and attacking small bands of travellers.

Durrandons’ lands were extensive as well but have dwindled over time and we have been told time and again that rebellious lords lose a great deal of land even if they get to keep their head and Boltons are the foremost rebellious lords of the North.

Even if they were the Royces or Yronwoods of the North at the time of the Andal Invasion, they aren’t anymore.

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Roose may be top dog in the North right now but even with all the ruse, he still isn’t that powerful compared with the more powerful bannermen of North; even with Roose keeping the majority of his forces intact and Barbrey and Wyman suffering serious losses, these two are still very much powerful and present a threat to Roose.

Dustin and Manderly are the most powerful in the North, which is made rather clear in both the series, and the additional materials.

Now of the two, Manderly is more powerful with his trade, wealth, influence and having a good amount of men but just looking at the amount of men, perhaps Dustins have more, since despite not having a city, Barrowlands is rather big, bigger than Manderly lands and certainly much bigger than Bolton lands.

Think of this as a comparison between Royce and Grafton, the second has the only city but the first is the most powerful vassal in the Vale, or Vance/Bracken/Blackwood vs Mooton, the second has the largest town in RL but they are less powerful than Tullys, who in turn are less powerful than the first group.

Bolton doesn’t have a city, a town large enough to be notable, a notable port(I’m pretty sure they have some small port though), their lands aren’t as vast as they used to be, have only the one castle whereas even the Hornwoods have more than one. In summary, they don’t stand out in anyway that shows or even implies they have a great deal of power.

 

They WERE the last to submit to the Starks and HAD extensive lands but emphasis on were and had.

Dorne was the last to submit to Targaryens but they are the least powerful of the 7K, not counting II, Clansmen of the vale  still haven’t bend their knees, not just to the vale but also to the iron throne but they do little more than stealing cattle and attacking small bands of travellers.

Durrandons’ lands were extensive as well but have dwindled over time and we have been told time and again that rebellious lords lose a great deal of land even if they get to keep their head and Boltons are the foremost rebellious lords of the North.

Even if they were the Royces or Yronwoods of the North at the time of the Andal Invasion, they aren’t anymore.

I think you are wrong on the Boltons.

We don’t know how fertile their lands are, but we know at a minimum they are south of the Karstarks, who have raised 3000 men to date. And considering that the Red Kings were a historical power of note you would imagine that their core lands were well chosen and provided them with a good base to build power, population and resources from which to project strength to neighbouring regions for thousands of years. So it is reasonable to presume that the Bolton lands are quite rich and fertile by Northern standards.

Since they at least exceed the Karstark level of 3000 men, a strength of 4000 is probably quite reasonable for them. And easily fits with the factoids we get from the books giving them the majority of 4000 men returning from the South and another 600 prime level soldiers with Reek at Winterfell. I’m not using these as definitive numbers, merely pointing that they are easily reconcilable with a picture of the Boltons at 4000 men or more.

As for your statement that they have only one castle compared to the many of the Hornwoods, that is a flawed argument, as you could then just as well suggest that the Manderlys, Dustins and Starks have only one castle each as well.

The truth is we don’t know the full strengths of any of the Manderlys, Dustins or Boltons. But to me the evidence suggests that the Manderlys are the most powerful among them, with the other two some way behind, but likely around the 4000 men level give or take. (And more than that if you include the green boys and old men).

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