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Gerold the Great

Strongest Lannister Vassal

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On 5/18/2019 at 8:52 AM, Gerold the Great said:

We all know that house Lannister has great and strong vassals, but who is the strongest of them all? 

Crakehall.  "All the Crakehall women are sluts" said a wise man.  I love Walder's witty abrasiveness.

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12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How will the marriage to the Hightowers and Redwynes not last?

Most of them will probably die. But for the most part Tyrell does seem secure

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Which has nothing to do with Balon marrying a Harlaw 20 -30 years ago. What point are you actually trying to make here?

Ashas men are largly Harlaw men. This is causing the seastone chair to bleed Greyjoy blood when Ironborn need to stand together. 

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, it is. What does this have to do with you making up a 'golden rule' that does not exist.

Its not a golden rule, kings/Lords have frequently married members of the Houses of their strongest vassals. That's just a fact.

And kings/lords have been frequently usurped and murdered. 

Golden rules are more like like guidlines, its not gravity. And I didn't make it up 

 

"Your father proposed the match," Lady Genna told her, "but Aerys refused to hear of it. 'You are my most able servant, Tywin,' the king said, 'but a man does not marry his heir to his servant's daughter.'

 

It becomes a conflict of interest issue

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? You know for a fact that they've never married into House Manderly or Hornwood? Can you cite your reference here?

These are old houses, Stark and Bolton are even older. Of course I dont know that for a fact, but its also a fact that strength changes over time. 

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, it didn't. His wife cuckolding him and his brothers rebelling caused problems for his legacy, him marrying into a powerful House did not.

As king he was surrounded by Lannisters and when he died they took over the government and shredded his will. They literally stole his throne. Lann the clever. They also killed him

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Again, what is your point here? Quentyn Martell did not think there was some golden rule stopping him from marrying a Yronwood.

Frog was a child in love and grateful to Yornwood. He was not under any assumption however that hed be able to marry anyone his father objects to.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not down to Tywin he was not.

Huh?

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Hardly, Where are you getting this shit?

He was a feared solider who Tywin used to do his bidding due to how effective he was.

Tyrion was shocked. "I thought we were agreed that the woods were full of beasts."

"Lesser beasts." Lord Tywin's fingers laced together under his chin. "Ser Gregor has served us well. No other knight in the realm inspires such terror in our enemies."

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Did they? Care to cite the books to back this up?

"The Mountain's men were always fighters," he said in a conciliatory tone, "and we may have need of every sword against these sellswords.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You do, then it may interest you to know that Tywin's great grandmother was a Brax. House Lannister also don't seem to have cared for this 'golden rule' you made up.

Just because Brax is strong now doesnt make it the strongest then. We know who used to be the two top dogs. Reins of Castamere baby

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Marbrand>Crakehall>Farman>Brax>Lefford
I'd say Marbrand. They're located near some key gold and silver mines while also being off the coast and away from reavers. They have Addam who's one of the more influential commanders. They have marital ties to the main branch of house Lannister. Farman wasn't featured much in the War of 5 Kings, but they seem to have significant naval influence.

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Just now, Hugorfonics said:

 

Most of them will probably die. But for the most part Tyrell does seem secure

We all will probably die. What does this have to do with the Tyrells last two marriages being to two of their strongest vassals?

There is no 'golden rule'. You made it up.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Ashas men are largly Harlaw men. This is causing the seastone chair to bleed Greyjoy blood when Ironborn need to stand together. 

There are actually Harlaw men on both sides, mostly on Euron's actually. And you must be talking about the show, the Ironborn united under Euron. Asha and her crew sailed away to the North. Little blood, if any was spilt.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

And kings/lords have been frequently usurped and murdered. 

Yup. What one earth does this have to do with this 'Golden rule' malarkey that you made up?

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Golden rules are more like like guidlines, its not gravity. And I didn't make it up 

I presumed you were referring to a guideline. It is still BS. Few, if anyone, follows such guidelines. Not in Westeros and not in our own middle ages.

Marriages between Kings/Lords and powerful vassals was frequent and encouraged. Marriages between Kings/Lords and insignificant vassals was rare and discouraged.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

 

"Your father proposed the match," Lady Genna told her, "but Aerys refused to hear of it. 'You are my most able servant, Tywin,' the king said, 'but a man does not marry his heir to his servant's daughter.'

What? He did not want to marry his heir to a Vassal full stop.

And yeah, how desperate are you to be using a character who's most known trait is that he's 'mad'. That shows how much this 'guideline' makes sense.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

 

It becomes a conflict of interest issue

No, it does not.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

These are old houses, Stark and Bolton are even older. Of course I dont know that for a fact, but its also a fact that strength changes over time. 

What point are you trying  to make?

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

As king he was surrounded by Lannisters

No, he was not. Jaime was in the Kingsguard already. Lancel and Tyrek is not being surrounded by Lannisters.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

 

and when he died they took over the government and shredded his will.

You mean his wife, with the support of Littlefinger of the Vale and Janos Slynt of the Kingsguard.

Cersei took over because of her status as queen and influence at court.  This should happen with any competent Queen.

And who do you expect to have taken over? The King's wife and acknowledged children are always going to take over, that is what Robert wanted.

For someone else to take over is wrong, Kings want their heirs to take power when they die. How do you not understand this?

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

 

They literally stole his throne. Lann the clever. They also killed him

That is not true to Robert's knowledge.

"I do hereby command Eddard of House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Hand of the King, to serve as Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm upon my … upon my death … to rule in my … in my stead, until my son Joffrey does come of age …"

You do realize that secretly cuckolding the King and arranging a boar to kill him is not the norm, right? Robert, even on his deathbed, intended his acknowledged heir to succeed him. That's just a fact.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Frog was a child in love and grateful to Yornwood. He was not under any assumption however that hed be able to marry anyone his father objects to.

By all means provide the evidence that Balon or any Dornish Lord had an issue with a Dornish-Yronwood marriage? Any evidence at all.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Huh?

Sandor was not in the Kingsguard down to Tywin. You claimed that Tywin favoured the Cleganes and then used Sandor's appointment to the KG as evidence when Tywin had nothing to do with it and was actually pissed when he found out that Sandor had replaced Barristan.

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion was shocked. "I thought we were agreed that the woods were full of beasts."

"Lesser beasts." Lord Tywin's fingers laced together under his chin. "Ser Gregor has served us well. No other knight in the realm inspires such terror in our enemies."

"The Mountain's men were always fighters," he said in a conciliatory tone, "and we may have need of every sword against these sellswords.

Yes, Tywin uses the Cleganes because they are useful, not because he favors them. How does the above quote support your original claim? Did you forget what your original claim was?

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Just because Brax is strong now doesnt make it the strongest then. We know who used to be the two top dogs. Reins of Castamere baby

Yup and who was Ellyn Reye betrothed to? And who was her first husband?

Do you not think before you type?

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12 hours ago, Slaver's Dread said:

It seems everyone is forgetting one house, the one that raises armies in the West. The strongest vassal house of the Lannisters of Casterly Rock are the Lannisters of Lannisport.

Indeed. Tywin, during Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion, had 3000 foot and 500 horse at the very beginning. Port is just a mile away and we get no mention of LP branch joining later on and Also Casterly Rock’s own lands doesn’t seem to extend far from what we know of so far.

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Posted (edited)

Editing on phons is hard, so a seperats post.

 

Quote

An honor guard of fifty knights surrounded Lord Tywin's wagon, crimson pennons fluttering from their lances. The lords of the west followed close behind them. The winds snapped at their banners, making their charges dance and flutter. As he trotted up the column, Jaime passed boars, badgers, and beetles, a green arrow and a red ox, crossed halberds, crossed spears, a treecat, a strawberry, a maunch, four sunbursts counterchanged.

 

Boars and badgers, more than one Crakehall and Lydden, if there aren’t any others with these sigils, but only a green arrow, a red ox a treecat a strawberry, a maunch.

Crossed Halberds and crossed spears and beetles; house bettley has three beetles so these three sigils don’t give any clue.

 

addnon top of that this below

 

Quote

 

Permit me to acquaint you with them, my lord of Lannister. Ser Deziel Dalt, of Lemonwood. Lord Tremond Gargalen. Lord Harmen Uller and his brother Ser Ulwyck. Ser Ryon Allyrion and his natural son Ser Daemon Sand, the Bastard of Godsgrace. Lord Dagos Manwoody, his brother Ser Myles, his sons Mors and Dickon. Ser Arron Qorgyle. And never let it be thought that I would neglect the ladies. Myria Jordayne, heir to the Tor. Lady Larra Blackmont, her daughter Jynessa, her son Perros." He raised a slender hand toward a black-haired woman to the rear, beckoning her forward. "And this is Ellaria Sand, mine own paramour."

 "Let me present Ser Flement Brax, heir to Hornvale. Lord Gyles of Rosby. Ser Addam Marbrand, Lord Commander of the City Watch. Jalabhar Xho, Prince of the Red Flower Vale. Ser Harys Swyft, my uncle Kevan's good father by marriage. Ser Merlon Crakehall. Ser Philip Foote and Ser Bronn of the Blackwater, two heroes of our recent battle against the rebel Stannis Baratheon. And mine own squire, young Podrick of House Payne." The names had a nice ringing sound as Tyrion reeled them off, but the bearers were nowise near as distinguished nor formidable a company as those who accompanied Prince Oberyn, as both of them knew full well.

There were plenty of Highborn in the city after the battle and yet Tyrion’s geeting party is made up of him, a dwarf, and mostly of less notables, just like Freys with Robb after he broke his promise; Lord Walder sends Lame Lothar and Ser Walder Rivers, “a bastard and a cripple” in Edmure’s words to Hoster’s funeral.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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16 hours ago, Slaver's Dread said:

It seems everyone is forgetting one house, the one that raises armies in the West. The strongest vassal house of the Lannisters of Casterly Rock are the Lannisters of Lannisport.

Seems highly unlikely. They might be one of the wealthiest, but given the Lannisters of Casterly Rock are on their doorsteps it seems their only power would be within the Walls of Lannisport and that power would be shared with the Lannisters of CR. 

There simply is not enough information to know who the strongest is. It may be the Crakehalls as they are the main House in the South of the Westerlands and they'd be expected to be the Westerlands defence against the Reach. Similarly House's Brax, Serrett, and Lefford are all situated close to the borders, they'd be tasked with the defence of these so it can be expected they have the resources in land and riches to carry out this task.

Obviously we know that House Reyne was the second most powerful House in the West, it depends what happened to their lands. Presumably it was shared between the Lannisters closest allies in that war, which would have been the Marbrands and Prester which brings both of these Houses into the equation.

I genuinely don't think we'll get an answer on this as there probably is not a big enough gap between 2nd and 3rd, 4th and 5th most powerful House in the Westerlands to get an answer from the remaining two books.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/22/2019 at 1:43 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Just because Brax is strong now doesnt make it the strongest then. We know who used to be the two top dogs. Reins of Castamere baby

Rains of Castemere are being cited so many times as an evidence of Tywin getting rid of vassals getting too strong, yet Reynes being strong had nothing to do with why Tywin went after them and Tarbecks were not a powerful House at all.

Edited by Dofs

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