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Tyrion1991

Why am I asked to care about the Lannister soldiers?

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In the Simpsons there’s an episode where Homer takes to raising this baby lobster. When he looks at the lobster he sees a wide eyed baby, when Marge looks at it she sees a hissing monster.The Lannister army is a lot like that lobster. It’s whatever the writers need it to be.

Have we all forgotten Harrenhal? Torturing the Smallfolk by making rats burrow into them? So when Arya kills a wounded soldier by running him through we are supposed to cheer for her. When Rob breaks them in his battles and people are cheering for him as he knocks the smug knights down.

Then as soon as Dany comes in season 7 the entire Lannister army is replaced with kind lovely lads who just want a quiet life. Ed Sheeran as a Lannister. So from this point on we’re endlessly bombarded with sympathising with them. Whether it’s being doused in dragon fire, hacked up by Dothraki or made to bend the knee. Then in this season we even have them depicted as the brave protectors of the city ushering civilians to safety. Iam sure they did that in Berlin when the Soviets came.

I dislike this because it’s inconsistent. You can’t demonise the Lannister army to justify the Starks killing them in droves. But then excessively humanise them (making them the protagonists in the wagon train battle) when they fight Dany. How do I know Grey Worm didn’t impale the same people who raped the Riverlands for years, who sacked Kings Landing themselves before that? There’s no suggestion it’s the same army at all beyond wearing the same armour. They even cast a kindly faced man to be the surrendering leader rather than the scruffy thugs we saw in earlier seasons.

Even when the city is being burned they take the time to show the Lannister soldiers among the civilians as if I am meant to be sorry the soldiers are dead. Much like when Tyrion sees them being hacked down by Dothraki.

I don’t get the show runners obsession with wanting me to sympathise with the common Lannister soldier. It’s a war and they’ve chosen to fight it. They bear the consequences of that. If they want to fight somebody who possesses a dragon then they’re just plain idiots. That doesn’t mean they’re worthy of sympathy. I am sure the Germans at Normandy had it pretty bad as well.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

In the Simpsons there’s an episode where Homer takes to raising this baby lobster. When he looks at the lobster he sees a wide eyed baby, when Marge looks at it she sees a hissing monster.The Lannister army is a lot like that lobster. It’s whatever the writers need it to be.

Have we all forgotten Harrenhal? Torturing the Smallfolk by making rats burrow into them? So when Arya kills a wounded soldier by running him through we are supposed to cheer for her. When Rob breaks them in his battles and people are cheering for him as he knocks the smug knights down.

Then as soon as Dany comes in season 7 the entire Lannister army is replaced with kind lovely lads who just want a quiet life. Ed Sheeran as a Lannister. So from this point on we’re endlessly bombarded with sympathising with them. Whether it’s being doused in dragon fire, hacked up by Dothraki or made to bend the knee. Then in this season we even have them depicted as the brave protectors of the city ushering civilians to safety. Iam sure they did that in Berlin when the Soviets came.

I dislike this because it’s inconsistent. You can’t demonise the Lannister army to justify the Starks killing them in droves. But then excessively humanise them (making them the protagonists in the wagon train battle) when they fight Dany. How do I know Grey Worm didn’t impale the same people who raped the Riverlands for years, who sacked Kings Landing themselves before that? There’s no suggestion it’s the same army at all beyond wearing the same armour. They even cast a kindly faced man to be the surrendering leader rather than the scruffy thugs we saw in earlier seasons.

Even when the city is being burned they take the time to show the Lannister soldiers among the civilians as if I am meant to be sorry the soldiers are dead. Much like when Tyrion sees them being hacked down by Dothraki.

I don’t get the show runners obsession with wanting me to sympathise with the common Lannister soldier. It’s a war and they’ve chosen to fight it. They bear the consequences of that. If they want to fight somebody who possesses a dragon then they’re just plain idiots. That doesn’t mean they’re worthy of sympathy. I am sure the Germans at Normandy had it pretty bad as well.

 

Could you please point to any army in human history completely made up of monsters and evil people.  

It doesn’t exist.  Because some people in a large group are evil it does not follow that all must be evil.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Could you please point to any army in human history completely made up of monsters and evil people.  

It doesn’t exist.  Because some people it a large group are evil it does not follow that all must be evil.

Yep.

Some of the shit people write on this forum. Dear lord.

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2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I don’t get the show runners obsession with wanting me to sympathise with the common Lannister soldier. It’s a war and they’ve chosen to fight it. They bear the consequences of that. If they want to fight somebody who possesses a dragon then they’re just plain idiots. That doesn’t mean they’re worthy of sympathy. I am sure the Germans at Normandy had it pretty bad as well.

 

And yet the French allow this memorial cemetery in Normandy:

http://www.battlefieldsww2.50megs.com/la_cambe_german_cemetery.htm

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It’s depicted as entirely monsters and evil people in the first few seasons when they’re fighting the Stark’s.

Then once it’s fighting Dany they are suddenly all innocent lambs being misled by Cersei. 

Thats a massive in change in portrayal and tone. You’re implying that this was always nuanced when it never was. It completely flipped between two extremes.

We have never been asked to view the Lannister soldiers as humans until season 7. Arya was not brow beaten with “oh but they’re just young boys who have just as much a right to life as you. Why not give up your vengeance.”. No the show wants you to root for killing the men who murder Yoren and kill her friends.

 

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10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And yet the French allow this memorial cemetery in Normandy:

http://www.battlefieldsww2.50megs.com/la_cambe_german_cemetery.htm

 

The product of the political union after the event and burying the hatchet. Not an endorsement of the German soldiers having ever been right to be fighting or for fighting them to have been a crime.

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7 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

The product of the political union after the event and burying the hatchet. Not an endorsement of the German soldiers having ever been right to be fighting or for fighting them to have been a crime.

And nobody ever said, that it was a crime to fight German soldiers. Nor has anybody implied it was wrong to fight them.

That said, one can understand, that a lot of those soldiers were just boys caught up in events beyond their control. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s depicted as entirely monsters and evil people in the first few seasons when they’re fighting the Stark’s.

Then once it’s fighting Dany they are suddenly all innocent lambs being misled by Cersei. 

Thats a massive in change in portrayal and tone. You’re implying that this was always nuanced when it never was. It completely flipped between two extremes.

We have never been asked to view the Lannister soldiers as humans until season 7. Arya was not brow beaten with “oh but they’re just young boys who have just as much a right to life as you. Why not give up your vengeance.”. No the show wants you to root for killing the men who murder Yoren and kill her friends.

 

The Lannisters are comprised of both good and bad.  And sometimes they co-exist in the same person.

What you're getting (and it's certainly done better in the books than the show) are differing points of view.  Some people who commit war crimes are loving parents and husbands.

Edited by SeanF

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8 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And nobody ever said, that it was a crime to fight German soldiers. Nor has anybody implied it was wrong to fight them.

That said, one can understand, that a lot of those soldiers were just boys caught up in events beyond their control. 

 

If you humanise your opponent you are, by definition, casting moral judgement on any kind of violence against them. Take Letters from Iwo Jima. In trying to depict the Japanese as fighting a heroic and hopeless struggle it casts doubt on the violence employed by the US against them. But even that film is careful to distance it’s protagonists from the State and the more extreme nationalists.

The same is true in season 7 and 8. The series wants to cast moral judgement against Dany for using her dragon. Never mind that Tyrion killed thousands with Wildfire but hey. So to achieve this they constantly beat you over the head with their perspective and why their fears and struggle is important. The whole battle of the wagon train is basically beating you over the head with it.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

The Lannisters are comprised of both good and bad.  And sometimes they co-exist in the same person.

 

There has not been a single bad Lannister soldier for two seasons. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

If you humanise your opponent you are, by definition, casting moral judgement on any kind of violence against them.

I don't buy this proposition as being true.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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1 minute ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

There has not been a single bad Lannister soldier for two seasons. 

Lannisters sacked Highgarden, and pelted Ellaria, her daughter, and Yara with shit as they were dragged through the city. 

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35 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s depicted as entirely monsters and evil people in the first few seasons when they’re fighting the Stark’s.

Then once it’s fighting Dany they are suddenly all innocent lambs being misled by Cersei. 

Thats a massive in change in portrayal and tone. You’re implying that this was always nuanced when it never was. It completely flipped between two extremes.

We have never been asked to view the Lannister soldiers as humans until season 7. Arya was not brow beaten with “oh but they’re just young boys who have just as much a right to life as you. Why not give up your vengeance.”. No the show wants you to root for killing the men who murder Yoren and kill her friends.

 

No.  You are only shown the horrible Lannister Troops because that’s who POv characters like Arya were interacting with. Recall that Tywin wasn’t particularly evil during his interactions with Arya while she was his cupbearer.  

Further, you are making the assumption that because those troops you are shown are horrible that all Lannister troops must be horrible.  That’s on you and your assumptions.

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Just now, SeanF said:

Lannisters sacked Highgarden, and pelted Ellaria, her daughter, and Yara with shit as they were dragged through the city. 

 

Those are the people of Kings Landing.

They don’t show you the sack of Highgarden which sanitises it. Compare that to the moralising done during the sack of Kings Landing. This is a biased portrayal so you would feel sorry for them when Dany beats their army. If they had shown the Lannister’s killing innocents and raping it would be a little insincere to be caring about those folk in the shieldwall. This is evidence that they want you to relate to the Lannister army.

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1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  You are only shown the horrible Lannister Troops because that’s who POv characters like Arya were interacting with. Recall that Tywin wasn’t particularly evil during his interactions with Arya while she was his cupbearer.  

Further, you are making the assumption that because those troops you are shown are horrible that all Lannister troops must be horrible.  That’s on you and your assumptions.

 

Tywins hanging people left right and centre in Harranhal.

It’s the closest you get to the Lannister army. It’s the heart of their operation. So it’s not a specific unit but indicative of the culture of that whole army. 

The show assumes that every Lannister soldier in season 7 and 8 is an innocent lamb being sent to the slaughter. It’s a dramatic shift in portrayal.

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8 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

If you humanise your opponent you are, by definition, casting moral judgement on any kind of violence against them. Take Letters from Iwo Jima. In trying to depict the Japanese as fighting a heroic and hopeless struggle it casts doubt on the violence employed by the US against them. But even that film is careful to distance it’s protagonists from the State and the more extreme nationalists.

The same is true in season 7 and 8. The series wants to cast moral judgement against Dany for using her dragon. Never mind that Tyrion killed thousands with Wildfire but hey. So to achieve this they constantly beat you over the head with their perspective and why their fears and struggle is important. The whole battle of the wagon train is basically beating you over the head with it.

No.  You are proposing that war is a zero sum proposition that each side must be entirely “in the wrong” or “entirely in the right”.  That is absolutely not the case.

Are you going to offer apologia for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, and Dresden because they were acts undertaken by the Allies?

BTW construction on La Cambre started in 1954.  That cemetery has been there for more than 6 decades.

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Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  You are proposing that war is a zero sum proposition that each side must be entirely “in the wrong” or “entirely in the right”.  That is absolutely not the case.

Are you going to offer apologia for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, and Dresden because they were acts undertaken by the Allies?

BTW construction on La Cambre started in 1954.  That cemetery has been there for more than 6 decades.

 

No Iam saying that in this fictional setting. They’ve went from the Lannister’s being the army of brigands ravaging the Riverlands to being the Knights of Summer who we should always be sympathising with. This is not a nuanced portrayal.

Well in the wagon train and the destruction of Kings Landings military defences they’re pretty clear that Dany is entirely in the wrong. She isn’t depicted as just. We have the sympathetic Lannister army, we have Tyrion brow beating the whole thing. Its entirely one sided. Which is why they overlook the sack of Highgarden.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

No.  You are proposing that war is a zero sum proposition that each side must be entirely “in the wrong” or “entirely in the right”.  That is absolutely not the case.

Are you going to offer apologia for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, and Dresden because they were acts undertaken by the Allies?

Not only that, but not everyone who served in the Axis forces was a monster. Take for example Max Schmeling, famous for his bouts with Joe Louis. He was in the German paratroopers. By all accounts he was an alright person. He even provided financial aid to Louis after the war.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

In the Simpsons there’s an episode where Homer takes to raising this baby lobster. When he looks at the lobster he sees a wide eyed baby, when Marge looks at it she sees a hissing monster.The Lannister army is a lot like that lobster. It’s whatever the writers need it to be.

Have we all forgotten Harrenhal? Torturing the Smallfolk by making rats burrow into them? So when Arya kills a wounded soldier by running him through we are supposed to cheer for her. When Rob breaks them in his battles and people are cheering for him as he knocks the smug knights down.

Then as soon as Dany comes in season 7 the entire Lannister army is replaced with kind lovely lads who just want a quiet life. Ed Sheeran as a Lannister. So from this point on we’re endlessly bombarded with sympathising with them. Whether it’s being doused in dragon fire, hacked up by Dothraki or made to bend the knee. Then in this season we even have them depicted as the brave protectors of the city ushering civilians to safety. Iam sure they did that in Berlin when the Soviets came.

I dislike this because it’s inconsistent. You can’t demonise the Lannister army to justify the Starks killing them in droves. But then excessively humanise them (making them the protagonists in the wagon train battle) when they fight Dany. How do I know Grey Worm didn’t impale the same people who raped the Riverlands for years, who sacked Kings Landing themselves before that? There’s no suggestion it’s the same army at all beyond wearing the same armour. They even cast a kindly faced man to be the surrendering leader rather than the scruffy thugs we saw in earlier seasons.

Even when the city is being burned they take the time to show the Lannister soldiers among the civilians as if I am meant to be sorry the soldiers are dead. Much like when Tyrion sees them being hacked down by Dothraki.

I don’t get the show runners obsession with wanting me to sympathise with the common Lannister soldier. It’s a war and they’ve chosen to fight it. They bear the consequences of that. If they want to fight somebody who possesses a dragon then they’re just plain idiots. That doesn’t mean they’re worthy of sympathy. I am sure the Germans at Normandy had it pretty bad as well.

 

Yes, I agree with your point, I think the director here wants to portray this as the atrocity of war. But you are right that it only remembers it during Dany’s arc. 

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