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Tyrion1991

Why am I asked to care about the Lannister soldiers?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

No Iam saying that in this fictional setting. They’ve went from the Lannister’s being the army of brigands ravaging the Riverlands to being the Knights of Summer who we should always be sympathising with. This is not a nuanced portrayal.

Well in the wagon train and the destruction of Kings Landings military defences they’re pretty clear that Dany is entirely in the wrong. She isn’t depicted as just. We have the sympathetic Lannister army, we have Tyrion brow beating the whole thing. Its entirely one sided. Which is why they overlook the sack of Highgarden.

Probably, some of Dany's actions in Essos would not have looked so great, if they'd been filmed from the POV of a shopkeeper, or artisan.

In this case, I don't think many people would say Dany was in the wrong when she burned the Iron Fleet, or strafed the walls of Kings Landing.  It's what went down afterwards that put her in the wrong, in our eyes, but not in the eyes of most of her soldiers.

By a horrible irony, this is probably the first time that Dany would have become genuinely popular with the Northern soldiers.

Edited by SeanF

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Just now, SeanF said:

Probably, some of Dany's actions in Essos would not have looked so great, if they'd been filmed from the POV of a shopkeeper, or artisan.

In this case, I don't think many people would say Dany was in the wrong when she burned the Iron Fleet, or strafed the walls of Kings Landing.  It's what went down afterwards that put her in the wrong, in our eyes, but not in the eyes of most of her soldiers.

 

No I think even those shots and the battle of the wagon train are extremely critical of the violence that’s used against the Lannister army and Iron Fleet. It spends a lot of time focusing on: people screaming, bodies being trampled on, people running away and just the general tone. It spends a lot of time showing their struggle and fight against Dany. You had Mr Tarly as the man of action. 

Compare that to the Battle of the Bastards where Jon at one point skewers a prone and clearly helpless man. Here it’s a mixture of spectacle and bloody minded vengeance. We don’t have the same moralising when the Knights of the Vale ride down the Bolton army as the Dothraki. Then at the end you have the triumphant moment. Dany doesn’t get that in the wagon train battle. Instead it rolls into the prisoners. Funny there weren’t any prisoners after BoB....

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4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

No Iam saying that in this fictional setting. They’ve went from the Lannister’s being the army of brigands ravaging the Riverlands to being the Knights of Summer who we should always be sympathising with. This is not a nuanced portrayal.

TV never does nuance. You just can't.  Remember, half the viewers are below average.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think the Lannister army was ever meant to be seen as entirely evil or entirely good.  Just like every other army that has been depicted in the show.  These aren't armies of robots.  They're men.  Why in the world would the show have to repeatedly show us examples of them doing good things to balance out the bad?  It's just a given that, like all men/mankind, there would be good and evil among them.  I don't think we are really meant to "cheer" when Robb kills Lannister men.  We're happy that Robb survives, because he is a character that the audience has followed and is supposed to care about.  

For example, the Stark men that Jaime and Brienne come across, who have killed some tavern girls for sleeping with Lannister men.  Brienne kills the Stark men.  Were the Stark men in the right, because we are usually supposed to see the Stark's as "good guys"?  Was Brienne in the wrong for killing them?  The answer is no, and no.  

Or the northerner that was about to rape a woman in the most recent episode.

Or the Lannister men that Talisa is treating during season 2.  Why would she treat evil, wicked men that deserve to die?  They're just men who happen to have the wrong sigil. 

Were the Lannister men at the Battle of the Blackwater all bad?  Were we supposed to see them as all bad?  Of course not. 

And by the way, the men Tywin was hanging at Harrenhal, if I remember correctly, were Lannister men.  He was looking for whoever knew something about the poison dart.  So yeah, it makes Tywin look ruthless (which he was) but I don't think we're supposed to think "oh, those evil Lannister bannermen are getting their due!" 

I think we are supposed to clearly understand that the banner an army carries does not make them good or evil.  They're just men.  

What do you think would happen to the soldiers who decided they didn't want to fight an army that has a dragon, and deserted?  That's pretty harsh to say the are "plain idiots" for "wanting" to fight Daenerys.  Maybe they didn't want to fight her.  

I'm not sure what you are getting at, about the German army in WW2.   Ha ha, I hate to fill you in on this, but while the Allies were the good guys, the "good guys" also committed some truly horrific acts...just like the "bad guys".  People don't become automatically and uniformly good or bad simply because their leader is...  war is ugliness and all sides do ugly acts in it.  GoT has said this over and over. 

But yes, Lannister men have maybe got the short end of the stick more often on the show, because we have more often seen things from a Stark's perspective.  But I've never jumped to the conclusion that therefore, Lannister men are all evil!  I don't think most viewers would think that. 

Edited by Red Dragon10

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12 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I don't think the Lannister army was ever meant to be seen as entirely evil or entirely good.  Just like every other army that has been depicted in the show.  These aren't armies of robots.  They're men.  Why in the world would the show have to repeatedly show us examples of them doing good things to balance out the bad?  It's just a given that, like all men/mankind, there would be good and evil among them.  I don't think we are really meant to "cheer" when Robb kills Lannister men.  We're happy that Robb survives, because he is a character that the audience has followed and is supposed to care about.  

For example, the Stark men that Jaime and Brienne come across, who have killed some tavern girls for sleeping with Lannister men.  Brienne kills the Stark men.  Were the Stark men in the right, because we are usually supposed to see the Stark's as "good guys"?  Was Brienne in the wrong for killing them?  The answer is no, and no.  

Or the northerner that was about to rape a woman in the most recent episode.

Or the Lannister men that Talisa is treating during season 2.  Why would she treat evil, wicked men that deserve to die?  They're just men who happen to have the wrong sigil. 

Were the Lannister men at the Battle of the Blackwater all bad?  Were we supposed to see them as all bad?  Of course not. 

And by the way, the men Tywin was hanging at Harrenhal, if I remember correctly, were Lannister men.  He was looking for whoever knew something about the poison dart.  So yeah, it makes Tywin look ruthless (which he was) but I don't think we're supposed to think "oh, those evil Lannister bannermen are getting their due!" 

I think we are supposed to clearly understand that the banner an army carries does not make them good or evil.  They're just men.  

What do you think would happen to the soldiers who decided they didn't want to fight an army that has a dragon, and deserted?  That's pretty harsh to say the are "plain idiots" for "wanting" to fight Daenerys.  Maybe they didn't want to fight her.  

I'm not sure what you are getting at, about the German army in WW2.   Ha ha, I hate to fill you in on this, but while the Allies were the good guys, the "good guys" also committed some truly horrific acts...just like the "bad guys".  People don't become automatically and uniformly good or bad simply because their leader is...  war is ugliness and all sides do ugly acts in it.  GoT has said this over and over. 

But yes, Lannister men have maybe got the short end of the stick more often on the show, because we have more often seen things from a Stark's perspective.  But I've never jumped to the conclusion that therefore, Lannister men are all evil!  I don't think most viewers would think that. 

Bingo 

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