Jump to content

U.S. Politics: You Didn't Think It Would Be So Easy, Did You?


Jace, Extat

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I've actually come 'round on the Don't Impeach strategy. What Pelosi is doing seems like a good strategy for the nonce.

It's horrifically frustrating, I know. Like, the dude actually deserves to get impeached. Even William Henry Harrison didn't deserve to get impeached by pneumonia.

But what does impeachment of Donald Trump achieve? It allows him to once again start banging the WitchHUNT, FOLKS! drum and not just be blowing 100% Pure Distillation bullshit. Because there's no chance of a conviction by the Senate, no real chance of impeachment itself in the House, and that fat orange fuck will keep vomiting lies that now have a tinge of truth to them because Democrats kinda are starting impeachment just to do it.

Doesn't matter that they have cause, evidence, a fucking DUTY. None of that is relevant. Starting impeachment proceedings immediately turns all the Fox and Friend raving about a coup into a story with juuuuust enough reality trapped between the cushions of madness that CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc... will all mysteriously start covering the segments of Fox News you may have missed due to insufficient levels of self-loathing. Because, IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY STAGING AN "unlawful coup"? I'm Wolf Blitzer, and we'll have our panel of Ben Shapiro, Anna Navarro, and Rick Santorum debate next!

Thing is, they're already raving about that now. They have been for 2 years. What an impeachment inquiry does is force publicly held hearings to air the cause and evidence, have witnesses testify to the actions in the Mueller report and force public discussion, with sound bites, of the President's conduct. Most Americans haven't read the Mueller Report and this would be a way to bring it to the public in a digestible way. Fox is going to do what Fox does and Trump will continue to do what Trump does. But at least this way, all the evidence against Trump will be aired in a very public manner, regardless of whether Senate convicts or not. And it's the right thing to do.

I get your point and I understand Pelosi's hesitance. It just frustrates me because I think the Dems are terrible at creating a simple message and repeating it over and over while the President says "No collussion, no obstruction" and all the Republicans say the exact same thing even though the report said nothing of the such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mexal said:

Thing is, they're already raving about that now. They have been for 2 years. What an impeachment inquiry does is force publicly held hearings to air the cause and evidence, have witnesses testify to the actions in the Mueller report and force public discussion, with sound bites, of the President's conduct. Most Americans haven't read the Mueller Report and this would be a way to bring it to the public in a digestible way. Fox is going to do what Fox does and Trump will continue to do what Trump does. But at least this way, all the evidence against Trump will be aired in a very public manner, regardless of whether Senate convicts or not. And it's the right thing to do.

I get your point and I understand Pelosi's hesitance. It just frustrates me because I think the Dems are terrible at creating a simple message and repeating it over and over while the President says "No collussion, no obstruction" and all the Republicans say the exact same thing even though the report said nothing of the such.

I accept your feelings on this matter, I used to feel the same as far as just saying "fuck it" and letting the dogs loose. But Pelosi has done well so far and won me over since the midterms.

On the second point, about messaging. 100% agreement, absolutely correct. Painfully, even.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I've actually come 'round on the Don't Impeach strategy. What Pelosi is doing seems like a good strategy for the nonce.

It's horrifically frustrating, I know. Like, the dude actually deserves to get impeached. Even William Henry Harrison didn't deserve to get impeached by pneumonia.

But what does impeachment of Donald Trump achieve? It allows him to once again start banging the WitchHUNT, FOLKS! drum and not just be blowing 100% Pure Distillation bullshit. Because there's no chance of a conviction by the Senate, no real chance of impeachment itself in the House, and that fat orange fuck will keep vomiting lies that now have a tinge of truth to them because Democrats kinda are starting impeachment just to do it.

Doesn't matter that they have cause, evidence, a fucking DUTY. None of that is relevant. Starting impeachment proceedings immediately turns all the Fox and Friend raving about a coup into a story with juuuuust enough reality trapped between the cushions of madness that CNN, MSNBC, CBS, etc... will all mysteriously start covering the segments of Fox News you may have missed due to insufficient levels of self-loathing. Because, IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY STAGING AN "unlawful coup"? I'm Wolf Blitzer, and we'll have our panel of Ben Shapiro, Anna Navarro, and Rick Santorum debate next!

TBH, impeachment or not, Trump will scream witch hunt.  Why not use the umbrella of impeachment to turbo-charge the subpoenas? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Jez Bell said:

TBH, impeachment or not, Trump will scream witch hunt.  Why not use the umbrella of impeachment to turbo-charge the subpoenas? 

Because what's the value of that? Unless you believe extremely strongly that there is some massive amount of great damning information that you'll get from the subpoena (and there's very little evidence of that), you're actually better off having Trump continue to stall badly and keep this in the news. 

On the impeachment side, I think that the frustrating thing with Pelosi doing this is that what she needs to do, IMO, is make a good case for impeachment to the public and continue doing so. Instead of stonewalling it and saying explicitly 'no, we won't do that' like she has been, she needs to indicate when congress should impeach, what it looks like, and most importantly SELL IT TO PEOPLE. Sell that impeachment may not result in an indictment (it almost certainly won't), but that has value in forcing politicians taking sides, revealing publicly a lot of information that hasn't easily been disseminated, and making sure that constitutionally that everyone is held to the law. This means making it more popular to the public, and this is what she hasn't been doing very well. That said, the poll number on 'impeach' is still rising. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Jez Bell said:

TBH, impeachment or not, Trump will scream witch hunt.  Why not use the umbrella of impeachment to turbo-charge the subpoenas? 

Why? To what point and purpose, exactly? For justice? Don't make me laugh before you get to the punchline, it's bad joke formatting.

If you're just wanting it in the public eye like Mexal, that's a valid argument but I don't see where the gains occur. Anyone paying attention knows he's guilty. Even if you start impeachment proceedings all those low-info voters Mexal posits might be informed by impeachment coverage are NOT GOING TO GET THE TRUTH.

I know it's the 'RIGHT' thing to do. I know that you will be able to go find a full recording of the interviews. And there will be honest coverage of the facts. But it's not gonna matter because Fox News will disseminate its drones throughout the Talking Head legions and for every rational duo discussing calmly the evidence there will be an actual cartoon character screaming insanity to the heavens and being treated with absolute seriousness... normalizing their insanity that now -like all the best conspiracy theories- does have a seemingly obvious truth despite the mainstream condemnation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Why? To what point and purpose, exactly? For justice? Don't make me laugh before you get to the punchline, it's bad joke formatting.

For history.  Holding a criminal traitor to the nation accountable in some way.  He's never been held accountable for anything in his entire life.  It's got to start somewhere, so lets start with history.

I'm well aware this will provoke derision, and that nobody cares about history except historians and history departments are being erased out of education everywhere because history doesn't matter.

I've been called on this forum a political junkie. But I'm not.  I'm an historian. Big difference.  A political junkie doesn't care beyond politics being a game or a profession.

But an historian is fully aware that our politics are the first draft of history. These politics also immediately, personally impact my life and the lives of everyone I know.  That's what wrong with my chickshyte relatives all going, 'it's just politics / politicians and has nothing to do with me.' Then they complain about their failing school buildings and bridges, and their horrible medical and prescription costs and lack of hospitals and see no connections -- taxes and policies are just something that Somebody Somewhere Talks About In Elections.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Why? To what point and purpose, exactly? For justice? Don't make me laugh before you get to the punchline, it's bad joke formatting.

If you're just wanting it in the public eye like Mexal, that's a valid argument but I don't see where the gains occur. Anyone paying attention knows he's guilty. Even if you start impeachment proceedings all those low-info voters Mexal posits might be informed by impeachment coverage are NOT GOING TO GET THE TRUTH.

I know it's the 'RIGHT' thing to do. I know that you will be able to go find a full recording of the interviews. And there will be honest coverage of the facts. But it's not gonna matter because Fox News will disseminate its drones throughout the Talking Head legions and for every rational duo discussing calmly the evidence there will be an actual cartoon character screaming insanity to the heavens and being treated with absolute seriousness... normalizing their insanity that now -like all the best conspiracy theories- does have a seemingly obvious truth despite the mainstream condemnation.

I dunno... I saw that a few of Justin Amash's Trump supporting constituents were under the impression that the Mueller report completely exonerated Trump until Amash started talking about it.  

I don't know how you get that info across the there's such a media/political info wall in place but I guess there are a few inroads.  Beats doing nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I accept your feelings on this matter, I used to feel the same as far as just saying "fuck it" and letting the dogs loose. But Pelosi has done well so far and won me over since the midterms.

On the second point, about messaging. 100% agreement, absolutely correct. Painfully, even.

OMG I think you and I are in very violent agreement (is there another kind?).  I'm actually really appreciating Pelosi right now.  It may not turn out to be the right call, but I have really been admiring her handling.  I personally think that the current state of being keeps weapons away from him, keeps the focus on the elections, where she wants it to be.  A media circus like an impeachment plays into his hands.  Now, if only the DNC could get the number of candidates narrowed down some.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

For history.  Holding a criminal traitor to the nation accountable in some way.  He's never been held accountable for anything in his entire life.  It's got to start somewhere, so lets start with history.

 

 

You ain't gotta tell me about how fucking irresponsible people are with their voting agency.

But regarding history, wait until he leaves office. This ridiculous DOJ inspiration that charges cannot be brought against a sitting president because the fucking Romans did that is an unfortunate reality.

You start impeaching and subpoenaing and dragging people in front of congress in a hot war between Republicans and Democrats where Dems' only allies are Justin Amash... and what happens next? I'm gonna tell you in the next paragraph, but think about it for a second. A full on political siege against 45 where there's no hope of definitive resolution in the congress, and let's hope something ugly crawls out into the light and THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, it'll be the thing that brings him down.

And the pardons will start flying the second someone gets into a flop sweat on C-Span trying to line up the first softball from Jim Jordan.

So they'll all get pardoned, Trump will abso-fucking-lutely try to pardon himself if the walls ever did close in that far which of course we gotta let the courts decide! The courts have to decide if he can pardon himself, no recusals. How long will that take? Can anything be done about the pardons to his associates? I guess none of them is going to jail now, huh?

You want some semblance of justice, I suggest you hope that he gets fucking curb stomped in 2020 and doesn't start pardoning indiscriminately into the crowd on his way out (can you even really imagine him just leaving though?). And if he does pardon all the KellyAnne's and Sarah Huckabees and Stephen Millers, etc... then you hope one of them decides to use their legal immunity to spill the beans on everything to make a quick buck and we can bring additional charges against Donnie himself.

2 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I dunno... I saw that a few of Justin Amash's Trump supporting constituents were under the impression that the Mueller report completely exonerated Trump until Amash started talking about it.  

I don't know how you get that info across the there's such a media/political info wall in place but I guess there are a few inroads.  Beats doing nothing.

You start actually impeaching, they will band together and never break ranks. I have no evidence except 2 years of inaction to inform me that Amash probably wouldn't have come forward if Pelosi was actively trying to impeach his Daddy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

You ain't gotta tell me about how fucking irresponsible people are with their voting agency.

But regarding history, wait until he leaves office. This ridiculous DOJ inspiration that charges cannot be brought against a sitting president because the fucking Romans did that is an unfortunate reality.

You start impeaching and subpoenaing and dragging people in front of congress in a hot war between Republicans and Democrats where Dems' only allies are Justin Amash... and what happens next? I'm gonna tell you in the next paragraph, but think about it for a second. A full on political siege against 45 where there's no hope of definitive resolution in the congress, and let's hope something ugly crawls out into the light and THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, THIS TIME, it'll be the thing that brings him down.

And the pardons will start flying the second someone gets into a flop sweat on C-Span trying to line up the first softball from Jim Jordan.

So they'll all get pardoned, Trump will abso-fucking-lutely try to pardon himself if the walls ever did close in that far which of course we gotta let the courts decide! The courts have to decide if he can pardon himself, no recusals. How long will that take? Can anything be done about the pardons to his associates? I guess none of them is going to jail now, huh?

You want some semblance of justice, I suggest you hope that he gets fucking curb stomped in 2020 and doesn't start pardoning indiscriminately into the crowd on his way out (can you even really imagine him just leaving though?). And if he does pardon all the KellyAnne's and Sarah Huckabees and Stephen Millers, etc... then you hope one of them decides to use their legal immunity to spill the beans on everything to make a quick buck and we can bring additional charges against Donnie himself.

You start actually impeaching, they will band together and never break ranks. I have no evidence except 2 years of inaction to inform me that Amash probably wouldn't have come forward if Pelosi was actively trying to impeach his Daddy.

I dunno.  They're all opportunists - someone will smell blood in the water and want to get out in front of it.  I'm sure they'd all be fine with Pence, I think the reason they haven't turned on Trump already is they're convinced Trump is driving their base.  But if they lose even 2-3% of their base they are fucked.  And the base might actually turn a bit (even 1 in ten would be huge) if people actually hear what's in the report.  If Mueller testifies to Congress that seems entirely possible.

I think the behind doors, think tank, upper eschelon R approach is to back Trump because that's their only chance of winning 2020 and getting another SC seat.  Because otherwise just cut the maniac loose and put an establishment guy there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

 

You start actually impeaching, they will band together and never break ranks. I have no evidence except 2 years of inaction to inform me that Amash probably wouldn't have come forward if Pelosi was actively trying to impeach his Daddy.

I so completely believe this.  And I actually think, in contrast to others, that at this point the GOP leadership has completely flipped.  People have either left or are completely onboard at this point.  I think Trumpism (or more accurately Bannonisma and Millerasma) are the new doctrines of the party, full stop (with a side of HobbyLobby for those days when it is raining outside and you need something to do).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I so completely believe this.  And I actually think, in contrast to others, that at this point the GOP leadership has completely flipped.  People have either left or are completely onboard at this point.  I think Trumpism (or more accurately Bannonisma and Millerasma) are the new doctrines of the party, full stop (with a side of HobbyLobby for those days when it is raining outside and you need something to do).

Agreement.

@larrytheimp clearly feels differently, but from where I sit they are all-in on Trumpism for probably a while to come. I've been saying for what feels like years now, Mitch McConnel, Lindsay Graham, whomever, they are RATIONAL actors orbiting an irrational man. It makes complete sense for Mitch to turtle up and take his spanking, same for Graham. Trump has things they want, and provides an opportunity to get even MOAR things they want.

McConnell and his ilk want the vestiges of democracy to dissolve away. It benefits them. They want to make sure there's never bi-partisan support for sustainable energy. It benefits them.

"Oh, they'll come around when they see..."

"They're just waiting for their opportunity..."

"Once he's gone we can get back to business..."

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!?!

People are still making statements like this. Larry, my man, made a statement in this vein. It's fucking madness! Years. YEARS, PEOPLE! FUCKING YEARS!!!

Wake the fuck up, my little Dorothy's. Kansas is a Republioactive wasteland and you're in the shit now. It's not gonna just get better because someone takes a stand or the right thing is done in the end.

You're on a fantasy forum on a series where the main theme is -in the words of the author himself- "sometimes being a good man isn't enough" and yet some people here and all over the place keep waiting for a hero to appear. And from the ranks of the enemy no less!

Of course they'd prefer a biddable Pence, but this idea that Republicans are waiting to abandon Trump is delusion at its worst.

Anyone remember this really funny SNL skit from two years ago that still doesn't have a main character? Oh wait, I just rewatched it and now it's like a goddamn horror trailer. Waiting for your adversaries to abandon a winning strategy because "eventually they'll start to feel bad, right?" is just plain old meat-and-potatoes idiocy.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I so completely believe this.  And I actually think, in contrast to others, that at this point the GOP leadership has completely flipped.  People have either left or are completely onboard at this point.  I think Trumpism (or more accurately Bannonisma and Millerasma) are the new doctrines of the party, full stop (with a side of HobbyLobby for those days when it is raining outside and you need something to do).

This idea - that Republicans will band together when they perceive an external threat to their identity - is also strongly backed by sociological studies, which show that largely conservative-leaning people will let others be and not care that much EXCEPT when perceiving an attack on their identity - and their leader is part of their identity. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, just like to throw this out there. We're not allowed to talk about it, 'cause it's scary. But I wanna take a quick second to remind folks of those 77,000 or whatever votes that decided our presidency.

Now we know that 'foreign agencies' had 'access to' but did not 'tamper with' our voting procedures in 2016. I'm not going to get into how deeply goddamn unsatisfying that suggestion from sources that kneecapped the other candidate is, lest I be called crazy.

But here's a little thought puzzle for you.

Convince me that there is a single downside to Russia or any other power should they fuck with our election again. And maybe just go all out this time and see what exactly can be accomplished. If they secure the win for Donnie and it all blows over again that's great, but if they get caught then the real destabilization of a foreign power is set in motion because not only will 45 deny, he'll claim that Putin was helping the Democrats and all of his supporters will back him.

And what's an incoming Democratic president gonna do to Russia that either wasn't already coming or can be achieved without congressional authority?

The thrust of this post is that I think it would be strategical negligence to not launch a full assault on swing states and outright hack them if possible from Russia's point of view. The benefits are endless, and the downsides are the same as inaction. America has already set precedence that a foreign power can manipulate our democratic process without consequence, any reprisals from a potential Democratic victor are both already assured and insignificant compared to the possible gains.

Just Jace's opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

But here's a little thought puzzle for you.

Convince me that there is a single downside to Russia or any other power should they fuck with our election again. And maybe just go all out this time and see what exactly can be accomplished. If they secure the win for Donnie and it all blows over again that's great, but if they get caught then the real destabilization of a foreign power is set in motion because not only will 45 deny, he'll claim that Putin was helping the Democrats and all of his supporters will back him.

So I mostly agree, and as we've already seen whatever sanctions they do deploy they roll back when it's acceptably far away, but here's the rub - if they do too much, chances are good that the population gets very upset. Too much is a tricky thing, mind you, but I suspect that if they actually changed voting outcomes that would cause enough outrage that people would demand to Do Something. And if Trump chooses not to Do Something, the next person in power will almost certainly harness that Do Something energy and win. Because even as partisan as the US has become, we still have something of a core of being attacked means sticking together. 

And the end result is that the short term results might be valuable, but the long-term results may be very bad for that country, so they have to be a bit cautious. 

That said, there's a lot more that they can do to continue to fuck with elections and systems that they haven't done yet. Veep showcased a whole lot of it recently, and it doesn't take much to change the outcome dramatically. Russia has already shown major sophistication in being able to manipulate smaller groups well. What will be amusing (to me at least) is whether or not China gets into the game more than they have, and they start pushing - for the side that isn't doing stupid-ass tariffs. 

But yeah, attacking elections and causing rifts is one of the best asymmetric attacks one can do against democracies and the Western world has yet to figure out how to fight it or how to make it painful enough that the other countries should not do it. Especially when preserving the democracy is not a particular goal of one of the major parties. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One aspect of this impeachment talk that's missing is the long-term effect on polarization.  If House Dems impeach Trump just to make a point (and sure, for duty and history as well, but the former is how the GOP will interpret it), then you can pretty much guarantee the next time there's a GOP House and Dem president, they're gonna impeach her too.  And the process gets degraded. 

I've gone back-and-forth on whether impeachment is politically beneficial.  I think it's all about timing, and I agree with Pelosi that it's not the time yet.  I do think impeachment hearings would be useful, but I wish there was a way to thread the needle - like, have the impeachment hearings, demonstrate your findings, then explain there's no point in advancing to conviction because of the subservient Senate, and instead hold a censure vote.  But that's way too inside baseball for the American public.  Maybe just hold a censure vote.  Pelosi can still be way more aggressive with hearings than she and her chairs have been so far - that's a fair criticism regardless of impeachment - in the lead up to that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

You start impeaching and subpoenaing and dragging people in front of congress in a hot war between Republicans and Democrats where Dems' only allies are Justin Amash... and what happens next?

Tell me what happens if we don't.  I'll tell ya though.

We're not going to win any elections, that's for sure. Certainly not the 20/20 presidential.  Just for starters. We're not going to get more judges, also for starters. 

People who aren't HIM are going to go on show trial and prison -- nor would we put firing squads out of the picture either. The so-called press that isn't faux noose etc. will no longer operate.  Russian and Saudi will continue to decide who runs the US.  The entire global market implodes. And etc.  

This is what will happen if impeachment and any form of accountability procedures are not implemented now. This is a constitutional crisis, as most constitutional lawyers speaking today seem to have agreed.  The thing is, the Constitution can't just lapse for one election cycle. It won't come back once it's gone.

And I sure hope you won't need an abortion .... or public of any kind, such as FEMA, school loans, etc.  Or any medical care or medications of any kind unless you happen to have 2 or 3 hundred millions stashed away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Tell me what happens if we don't.  I'll tell ya though.

We're not going to win any elections, that's for sure. Certainly not the 20/20 presidential.  Just for starters. We're not going to get more judges, also for starters. 

People who aren't HIM are going to go on show trial and prison -- nor would we put firing squads out of the picture either. The so-called press that isn't faux noose etc. will no longer operate.  Russian and Saudi will continue to decide who runs the US.  The entire global market implodes. And etc.  

This is what will happen if impeachment and any form of accountability is just ignored.

And I sure hope you won't need an abortion .... or federal aid of any kind, such as FEMA, school loans, etc.  Or any medical care or medications of any kind unless you happen to have 2 or 3 hundred millions stashed away.

You clearly feel very strongly about this. But perhaps you should think more reasonably. You have not really argued for the positive effects of impeachment...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...